LumberJocks

General Finishes Enduro Pre-Cat Urethane

  • Advertise with us

« back to Woodworking Skill Share forum

Forum topic by rolltopbox posted 04-06-2010 04:26 PM 13753 views 19 times favorited 59 replies Add to Favorites Watch
View rolltopbox's profile

rolltopbox

71 posts in 2454 days


04-06-2010 04:26 PM

I am having trouble locating information about using this product on new wood. I plan to spray using a Rockler HVLP system like this.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10469

I am looking for help in selecting tip size, what the film should look like right after spraying, etc.

Thanks for any help given.

-- Bruce http://www.finecraftfurniture.com


59 replies so far

View HokieJoe's profile

HokieJoe

6 posts in 2431 days


#1 posted 04-08-2010 06:55 AM

Hello, I’m in a similar situation. General’s recommendation is to use a .043” – .051” tip with an HVLP gun. With my gun, (Earlex 5000) the 1mm tip = .040”, so that’s the tip I’ll be using with the Enduro precat.

From General’s website:

“Recommended Spray Tips for Wood Stains and Top Coats. Fluid tip sizes should be as follows: Compressed air – .040, HVLP – .051, Airless – .009. Recommended Tips for Milk Paint. Compressed air – .050, HVLP – .072, Airless – .013. Air caps should be medium size. Contact your supplier to verify proper tip sizes for your specific equipment.”

They also recommend using their Pre-Cat Sanding Sealer before using the Enduro. BTW, I posted a question about tip size over at WoodWhisperer’s website here:

“Music to My EARlex”: http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-45-music-to-my-earlex/#comment-56029

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#2 posted 04-08-2010 02:26 PM

the one Rockler has Looks like an Earlex 3000 , both will spray the product , my preference is to use a 1.4 or 1.5 needle/nozzle set up in the earlex , I open up the fluid knob to get as much fluid as possible , bearing in mind , water base is thicker , if need be thin it up to 10% , with water ( tap will do fine), get a medium mesh strainer , as long as the fluid goes thru it reasonably well , you are fine ( viscosity) , the finer tip ( instead of a 2.0) allows a finer spray , but because its thicker you have to put more fluid to it , to get it to spray well,
the coating will look milky white , and should look relatively smooth and wet , water base will look somewhat like the peel of an orange ( slight exaggeration), when first applied , but will level out , the smoother it is put on the smoother it will be, but again it can have a bit of texture , as it doesn’t lay and flow like solvent based products , the molecules in water base glue together to form the film, like a zillion BB’s all touching , solvent based the resins are dissolved , so they are in liquid form , as soon as the solvent evaporates you have a film, but it will lay flat initially , water base behaves a little differently , what you want is a moderate wet coat , and walk away … check it an hour later , then check it after an overnight dry .. you will see what I am talking about… hope this helps

View rolltopbox's profile

rolltopbox

71 posts in 2454 days


#3 posted 04-08-2010 10:17 PM

Thanks CharlesNeil for the details. I think I am on the right track.

-- Bruce http://www.finecraftfurniture.com

View rolltopbox's profile

rolltopbox

71 posts in 2454 days


#4 posted 04-09-2010 04:19 PM

I have sprayed 2 coats, sanded 400 grit and sprayed two more coats. Each coat was allowed to dry 1 to 4 hours between coats. The sanded coat was allowed to dry overnight.

I keep getting this rough pebbly finish. The first picture is after the forth coat and a day of drying. The second picture is after sanding 400 grit.

So what am I doing wrong?

4th coat

sanded

-- Bruce http://www.finecraftfurniture.com

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#5 posted 04-09-2010 04:56 PM

you are not getting enough material on, its “dry”, you want a wetter coat , slow down , you want a wet coat to follow the gun, this is a common error made in spraying , folks get scared of runs, so they spray to light , the trick is how wet to avoid runs , but wet enough to flow out level, try this , take a scrap , brush a “wet coat”, that is what you want to replicate when spraying , I have often said if your not getting a run every now and again , your not getting it wet enough , you might also try thinning it a bit ( 5 to 10%), I always have a good synthetic brush handy , if I happen to get a run a quick brushing will level it out , if it starts to “set up” on you , wet the brush with some water , the issue you are having is you don’t have enough material on to flow together , a sprayed finish is simply zillions of droplets of finish that flow together to form a film, too little material, you get a rough pebbly finish , too much you get a run, it definitely requires some practice … You will get it , but keep the brush handy , I been spraying since I was 13 , I’m now 56 , I still keep a brush around , Water base is tough to get the hang of , it requires a thicker film to level out , and its a fine balance , also be sure you keep the gun parallel to the surface , don’t swing it in arch’s , you want approx a 6” fan pattern, and be about 6 to 8” away from the surface …

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#6 posted 04-09-2010 05:01 PM

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#7 posted 04-09-2010 05:13 PM

Rob, the enduro var , as well as any waterbase , all have the same properties , If you are like me and have sprayed alot of solvent based products , it takes a bit of getting used too .. and usually foul language is part of the process :)

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#8 posted 04-09-2010 05:31 PM

this is a good thread , so I will help further , get you some mirka abralon , its a 6 inch pad that will work on your random orbit , lets assume you have a less than perfect finish, once its dry , sand it by hand using some soapy water , and some 1200 to 1500 for a satin finish, or 2000 to 2500 for a gloss , super fine papers like this are usually available form your local autobody supply , its the black silicon carbide paper ( water proof) you want this guy will sell the abralon in singles http://www.bowlingbeat.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=1344
using a 1000 then a quick hit with some 2000 will give you a nice satin , 3000 to 4000 will give a semi gloss to gloss , they also work well for hand rubbing , auto body polishing compound, rottenstone, pumice , while they will polish a film, they all basically work to a gloss , a satin is hard to get as well as a semigloss , the abralon pads, because they are a defined grit do it well , no matter how much you rub you get the same result, once you have it sanded to a level smooth surface , then rub it out with your choice of pad , clean it up ,a light coat of wax will brighten it , the key is to let the finish cure , a week to 10 days is typical for Water Based , however when you are at the auto-body supply , they have a product called either hand glaze , or swirl remover , its a cleaner /wax sort of product used to finish off new finishes , it doesn’t contain wax or silicons , new finishes unless cure like to streak wax , even water base … , you can also use micro mesh sand paper , on the RO sander .. Woodcraft sells it in a 5 pack I believe here is Vid I did on rubbing a finish http://charlesneilwoodworking.com/category_player.php?type=1&cat=3&video=rubbingout.flv
hope all this helps

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#9 posted 04-09-2010 05:49 PM

one last thing, polys are the toughest to rub, shellacs , lacquers and acrylics are the easiest , poly are tough , like a care tire , so they remain somewhat pliable ,makes polishing harder to do , newer ones are better , water base does better than oil base , but all finishes can be rubbed , but if you are planning to rub always apply an extra coat to do so , some water base finishes can ghost if you cut thru from one layer into the other , because they dont burn in together like solvent based products, or polys , so a way around that is to apply a second coat as soon as the the last coat has tacked , just enough to lightly touch , oil finishes require and extra 2 or more coats, same with gels , they are much thinner films, and require going very gently , always leave edges alone , they will rub thru super quick , so be careful

View rolltopbox's profile

rolltopbox

71 posts in 2454 days


#10 posted 04-09-2010 06:00 PM

Foul language is good!

I now have that flowed out surface that I remember from the day…..

I also have some runs that I will be glad to give away. But I can see what I was doing wrong and that my present equipment may work out just fine. It is a HF HVLP unit like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677

I am using the smallest needle, 1.5mm, that came with it.

Thanks, CharlesNeil, for sharing your knowledge.

-- Bruce http://www.finecraftfurniture.com

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#11 posted 04-09-2010 06:15 PM

the issue with these like the earlex 3000 is they spray the water base but barely , they just dont have power to atomize the heavier fluid fully, thus me saying use the smaller needle/nozzle and increasing the fluid, it helps break the fluid up more , the finer the droplets the smoother it will layout , with less material , my instruction is opposite most , most say go to a heavy needle/nozzle, you can but then you get a flood of material with very liittle break up … again back to the water hose , hold the thumb tight over the end and you get spray , back off , well you get the point …

View rolltopbox's profile

rolltopbox

71 posts in 2454 days


#12 posted 04-09-2010 06:43 PM

The earlex 5000 looks great and will be added to the list. I have been foam brushing various waterborne finishes for two years. The things I make are a challange to finish. http://www.ovaltambour.com I wanted to try spraying so I looked around and found favorable reviews for this machine. I hope it will get me through my current production season of Tambour Desks and Oval Tambour Jewelry Boxes.

In the day I finished my work with varnish or Velvit Oil. i now have to use more responsible finishing methods.

-- Bruce http://www.finecraftfurniture.com

View rolltopbox's profile

rolltopbox

71 posts in 2454 days


#13 posted 04-09-2010 07:27 PM

I am not using a sanding sealer on this work, I just spray the pre-cat on the sanded bare wood. Does anyone have any thoughts about any benefits for sanding sealer? I am finding mixed opinions on the need for sanding sealer.

-- Bruce http://www.finecraftfurniture.com

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1610 posts in 3330 days


#14 posted 04-09-2010 09:22 PM

a sanding sealer is basically finish with a sterate in it to make it sand easier , it does not help adhesion , it simply makes it easier to get a defuzzed surface , because of the sterate that causes it to be a bit softer , high builds are not a good idea ,as long as you are getting a good surface, stay with it , I rarely use it ..but in large case’s or production work the ease of sanding is a plus , apply one good wet coat , let dry , scuff sand smooth and move on

View Kent Shepherd's profile

Kent Shepherd

2716 posts in 2746 days


#15 posted 04-09-2010 09:56 PM

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the great info Charles. I have you beat though. I’ve been spraying since I was 12, and I’m 57 now.

I certainly don’t have anything to add, other than Charles is right on in his answers, especiall about the language. I think the most frustrating thing I’ve done in the shop is to teach someone how to spray. It seems the only way to really learn is to just do it, and do it, and do it and——————————————well, you get the picture.

-- http://shepherdtoolandsupply.com/

showing 1 through 15 of 59 replies

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com