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Byrd Cutterhead rusting on DW735 - Interesting cause

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Forum topic by Chad posted 05-06-2016 03:34 AM 1105 views 1 time favorited 15 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Chad

49 posts in 577 days


05-06-2016 03:34 AM

Topic tags/keywords: byrd carbide inserts dewalt dw735 planer rust

I’ve been away from the tools for a month or so, the girlfriend said “yes” so it’s been a month of wedding plans etc.

Until yesterday.

I had a 12” wide board of maple that needed to be planed. I have a Dewalt DW735 with the Byrd shelix cutterhead.

Lovely cutterhead, would never go back. It’s been on for about a year and a half.

Anyways, that board. I run it through and it comes out with a “wavy” finish where I can clearly see that the carbide inserts are digging in and leaving grooves down the length of the board. I’ve seen people complain about this but I’ve never seen it until yesterday.

So I take the top off and look for anything that may indicate a problem. Looks fine. So I take a few inserts out and son of a diddilly, rust is forming under the inserts. The carbide inserts and screws look perfect.

So a month ago I had a run of 20 end grain cutting boards. Which, by the way, having a shelix cutterhead is amazing for, as you can plane end grain with em!

Let me show ya: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Y90TPSJd0

Where was I? Oh, those cutting boards. They were a rush order so I was churning them out as fast as I can. They were clamped for a good couple hours before planing but the squeeze out can stay gooey under the bubble of dried glue. What I’m thinking is that the semi-wet glue blobs slamming into the cutterhead inserts caused a smidge of moisture to sneak under the inserts.

I took the inserts out, cleaned up the rust, installed them again, and tada! Back to planing smooth again.

I thought I’d share in case someone has such an issue someday and is scratching their head.

Oh and also, a buddy and I ordered a ton of the Byrd style 15mm x 15mm carbide inserts thinking we’d need extras for our planers and jointers. Little did we know, these things never seem to wear out. If you figured out how to wear yours out and need some more, I’ll sell them for what I paid. I ordered a bunch to get a volume discount. I think it was something like ~$19 per 10 inserts or something. If anyone is interested I’ll check.

-- Wood is awesome.


15 replies so far

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

692 posts in 1265 days


#1 posted 05-06-2016 03:59 AM

Thanks for the heads up just this week I ran a fair amount of painted wood thru my PM planer.Other then some nasty smell from the old layers of paint didn’t seem to hurt anything.
They are something.
I do think that most woodworker run dull inserts way too long .It doesn’t take a super sharp edge to plane hardwood it’s really the hook angle and shear cut that make the head work.
Next time you have the top open take out a insert and look at the edge with a magnifier .Then look at a new one.
They don’t stay sharp forever .

View Chad's profile

Chad

49 posts in 577 days


#2 posted 05-06-2016 04:28 AM

You know, you mentioning the planing of painted wood made me think of the first big job I used this cutterhead for. I decided to make another thread about that: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/160498

Planed ~800 linear feet of ~6” wide Ipe, probably 2/3rds of it painted. Had zero problems.

The way I could tell that it was time to rotate the inserts was evident in that short youtube video that I posted above. That squealing noise. I didn’t know what that was. I turned the inserts 90 degrees and it went away. I think I’ll use that as an indicator. :D

-- Wood is awesome.

View splatman's profile

splatman

563 posts in 866 days


#3 posted 05-06-2016 08:39 PM

I had a similar squealing problem last December when I was planing a end-grain cutting board I built for my Mom for C-mas. Had the Byrd cutterhead in my Ridgid TP1300 since Feb. 27 2015. I did the “feel test” on the inserts. The leading edges felt dull. Turned all the inserts 90°. Problem solved.

Why dull so fast? 1 thing for sure: Numerous chips due to them sneaky nails [1]. I usually would then re-run the stock shifted left or right to plane off the ridges. Another thing that’s possible: The wood from which I built said cutting board was scrap new flooring [2]. I prepared it by, among other things, planing off the finish. That probably dulled the cutters beyond the existing nail ships.

[1] One of those things you must watch out for when working with old wood.
[2] In case you’re wondering or misunderstood, no, I would never use old flooring in a cutting board. Yuck!

View bobasaurus's profile

bobasaurus

2675 posts in 2651 days


#4 posted 05-06-2016 09:57 PM

Interesting problem. I wonder if a heavy coat of boeshield or similar penetrating oil/wax would help?

-- Allen, Colorado

View Kazooman's profile

Kazooman

628 posts in 1419 days


#5 posted 05-06-2016 11:06 PM

Interesting thread. I have been contemplating upgrading my DW735 with a shelix head. I am surprised that they would make the central shaft of the cutter head out of a metal that is apparently so prone to corrosion. That said, I am more surprised that a small amount of moisture from uncured glue could infiltrate under the inserts and then the resulting corrosion process was able to exert enough force to lift the inserts against the force of the screws holding them in place.

Have you contacted the manufacturer to get their take on the issue? I would not be very happy to find rust like that on such an expensive cutter head through normal use.

View mlipps's profile

mlipps

88 posts in 582 days


#6 posted 05-07-2016 01:51 AM

Rust can form if glue gets on the cutter heads. Maybe there was a glob of glue on one of the 20 boards you were planing that you missed. Glue can leave nasty stains on all tools if you forget to clean it off. Been there. Though that doesn’t necessarily account for the “wavy” finish. Are you running it on the slower speed setting?

View Holbren's profile

Holbren

3 posts in 471 days


#7 posted 06-04-2016 09:59 PM

$19 for a pack of 10 is cheap for inserts. Are they the ones Byrd uses or the Chinese knockoffs that are out there? There are some knockoffs that have the BT on them and while I’m sure they are fine I have been told they don’t last as long as the original German made carbide Byrd uses. In fact they even tested them and found the same results.

View Chad's profile

Chad

49 posts in 577 days


#8 posted 06-04-2016 10:30 PM

Hello,

I’m not sure what constitutes a “knockoff” to you? Metal alloy is metal alloy and Byrd is just one random company of many who orders carbide inserts from a factory. We nerded out on the specs, since it was a big investment for two lowly woodworkers. We picked a good blend of carbide/cobalt with what we felt was a good carbide grain size.

We lucked out. They last as long as the ones you sell. We’ve been using both the ones that Byrd has made and the ones we had made. Neither seemed to outperform the other.

Under a microscope we found the Byrd brand to have more chips and less of a polished edge than what we ordered. Though as stated above, didn’t seem to make much(if any) performance difference and we only looked at some spare inserts from cutterheads I ordered from you.

I have a good relationship with the factory that made them if you’re interested in some.

Chad


$19 for a pack of 10 is cheap for inserts. Are they the ones Byrd uses or the Chinese knockoffs that are out there? There are some knockoffs that have the BT on them and while I m sure they are fine I have been told they don t last as long as the original German made carbide Byrd uses. In fact they even tested them and found the same results.

- Holbren


-- Wood is awesome.

View conifur's profile

conifur

955 posts in 619 days


#9 posted 06-04-2016 10:55 PM

It could be some electrolysis/galvanic action going on, dissimilar metals against each other. Remember the leading cause of Divorce is marriage!!!! 50%+ rate. Stay single, it is much cheaper in the long run!!! All you young guys want what I call their own “personal p*&sy”. I can guarantee ya less after marriage then B4!!!

-- Knowledge and experience equals Wisdom, Michael Frankowski

View Holbren's profile

Holbren

3 posts in 471 days


#10 posted 06-04-2016 11:26 PM

Sounds like you know your carbide. I would be interested in the factory if you could share.

Those inserts are 15mm with a large radius and a #10 screw hole, not the most common item. I didn’t realize you had them made just trying let you know that all carbide is not equal and there are some inferior cutters out there. I’ve heard stories from customers that had some that didn’t last long to those that were not consistent in thickness.

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

692 posts in 1265 days


#11 posted 06-04-2016 11:40 PM

I guess in a planer you really can’t tell how hard it’s working will dull insets.With a jointer it’s more apparent.I went thru two sets and had to replace all the screws. I’m back to straight knives again.
No more glue lines for me.
I do have a Pm HH.So I’m not knocking the Bryd head.

View Chad's profile

Chad

49 posts in 577 days


#12 posted 06-05-2016 12:00 AM

Hi,

We are both engineers first, woodworkers second. We’re paid to obsess over details and it’s spills over into woodworking stuff too. :)

The molecular makeup of (tungsten)carbide is nearly invariable, actually(other than temperature). What we can control is the grain size(super important) and the binders(cobalt) used to create the item one desires.

The dimensions aren’t a biggie. Those are just measurements to hand off to the factory.

You’re right though, you can get some low grade product out there. My point was, you can get awesome or poor product from the same factory, it just depends on what you ask for.


Sounds like you know your carbide. I would be interested in the factory if you could share.

Those inserts are 15mm with a large radius and a #10 screw hole, not the most common item. I didn t realize you had them made just trying let you know that all carbide is not equal and there are some inferior cutters out there. I ve heard stories from customers that had some that didn t last long to those that were not consistent in thickness.

- Holbren


-- Wood is awesome.

View wuddoc's profile

wuddoc

93 posts in 3185 days


#13 posted 06-05-2016 01:39 AM

For decades I have controlled rust using CRC-36. This material works it’s way into the grain structures pores and slows down the oxidation. This usually lasts 3 to 6 months depending on usage and humidity. What’s also important it does not effect coatings materials.

You may wish to check and see if the federal Forest products lab metal research division is still at Mississippi State University. When my contact was there you could discuss your problems and obtain solutions.

-- Wuddoc

View Tennessee's profile

Tennessee

2410 posts in 1982 days


#14 posted 06-05-2016 12:50 PM

My Grizzly G0453 is about six years old. One of the old Polar Bear series.
The cutters on my spiralhead say JT.

I am on the second side with maybe a year to go on that side. I was just inside mine to inspect a couple of the cutters and looked over the whole thing carefully, taking out 4-5 cutters for inspection, then remounting them.
No rust anywhere.

I put through my fair share of glued up planks, and although I take off some of it, a lot is taken off by the planer. I’ve run green wood through it prior to ricking it up. No rust anywhere at all.
I’ve never heard of galvanic action with carbide. Is that even possible? What other metal would it react with?

-- Paul, Tennessee, http://www.tsunamiguitars.com

View Redoak49's profile (online now)

Redoak49

1963 posts in 1456 days


#15 posted 06-05-2016 01:24 PM

I think the issue is that PVA glue can be corrosive. There are several comments on a sword forum about blades rusting where they contact a glue line.

It would be interesting to put some drops of glue on a steel surface and also a carbide cutter with glue on a steel surface. One could monitor it daily for a couple of weeks.

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