LumberJocks

Cyclone + Wok = Redundant?

  • Advertise with us

« back to Power Tools, Hardware and Accessories forum

Forum topic by Orple posted 04-05-2016 12:09 PM 845 views 1 time favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
View Orple's profile

Orple

4 posts in 246 days


04-05-2016 12:09 PM

Topic tags/keywords: wok dust collector vortex dust deputy question

I’ve been reading up on ways to improve the efficiency of my 2hp Harbor Freight dust collector, and have already made the following two upgrades:

1. Bought a Super Dust Deputy.
2. Bought a Wynn filter

I’ve read that the decrease in CFM’s from the static pressure/friction of the cyclone will be offset by the increase in flow from the Wynn filter, with the added benefit of less filter clogging. So far so good.

I’ve also been reading about the wok/salad bowl upgrade (Jet-style vortex cone), though, and I can’t find any good information about its relation to Thein baffles/cyclones except for a few folks who say that they have both (but don’t indicate why or comment on their combined effectiveness).

Assuming a cyclone is already in the system, will adding the wok/salad bowl inside the DC have any significant benefit? Will it help at all with the really fine dust?

Any thoughts appreciated.


14 replies so far

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

614 posts in 1025 days


#1 posted 04-05-2016 02:03 PM

I have the HF DC with the Super Dust Deputy and Wynn filter and it does so well with separation I can’t imagine that adding the bowl will make much difference. That’s just my gut reaction with no info to say one way or another. It will take some detailed testing with and without the bowl to prove if it helps without loosing some suction.

View Orple's profile

Orple

4 posts in 246 days


#2 posted 04-05-2016 04:37 PM

Do you find that the SDD even catches the real fine dust well? I haven’t had it in operation long enough to tell, but that would be the only reason to add an additional separator via the bowl.

View Bob5103's profile

Bob5103

25 posts in 298 days


#3 posted 04-05-2016 05:38 PM

I modified my HF DC with the SDD with 5” duct to the tools, and exhausted outside. The dust deputy captures the vast majority of the fines. When I first put it in, I stuck a hose into a 5 gal bucket full of sawdust and watched the exhaust. There was a very small “puff” of dust and then it stopped. In normal use there is no visible dust. My longest duct run is 39’ feet with 5’ and 7’ ceiling drops in the run, and I am very pleased with how well the unit works. Personally, I don’t think adding any other modification would help, and it might even reduce the efficiency.

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

818 posts in 384 days


#4 posted 04-05-2016 06:00 PM

Orple,

I am no engineer but have some thoughts anyway. I am not sure what you have in mind when you speak of adding the wok inside the cyclone. I am guessing that you are considering adding the wok somewhere at the bottom of the cyclone where chips are dumped into the dust/chip bin.

I would think that doing anything that would affect air flow inside the cyclone, including where the cyclone drops chips into the dust/chip collection barrel could adversely impact the performance of the cyclone. For example, when I upgraded my dust collector, the manufacturer advised against using a box rather than a round barrel for a dust collection bin. The manufacturer feared that air flow would be disrupted and adversely affect the cyclone’s dust separation performance. While mine was a different issue than the question you pose, it does suggest that cyclone performance extends beyond the cyclone body. Perhaps Oneida could give you a definitive answer as to whether your plan would reduce the effectiveness of their cyclone.

If the dust collector were made into a 3 stage collector, by introducing an additional separator between the cyclone and the filters, some added benefit may be achieved. However, placing the third stage in front of the cyclone could adversely affect the air flow entering the cyclone and perhaps reduce the cyclone’s effectiveness. Any benefit (or lack thereof) would become apparent when the separate dust collection bin is emptied. A 3rd stage would cost some static pressure (SP) but I do not know how much the SP would be increased.

It is interesting that Penn State Industries offers a re-cycling system to clean their filters. A hose connects the fine dust cleanout box to the cyclone inlet. Air is then pulled from the shop through filters, into the cyclone, and back to the filters, “backwashing” the filters. I have not used this system, but Penn State claims 99%+ of the particles lodged in the filter and in the fine dust cleanout box are removed from the air stream by the cyclone’s main dust collection bin. This suggests that there is dust that is not initially removed by the cyclone but on subsequent passes is removed; and therefore some benefit may be achieved by a well-engineered 3rd stage.

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

614 posts in 1025 days


#5 posted 04-05-2016 06:28 PM



Do you find that the SDD even catches the real fine dust well? I haven t had it in operation long enough to tell, but that would be the only reason to add an additional separator via the bowl.

- Orple

My filter has some fine dust in it, but the bag is virtually empty. The collection container below the SDD has fines in it that are like cake flour. It appears the SDD is separating almost all of the dust and chips. The really micro fine dust that’s making it through I can’t imagine that the addition of the bowl will keep it from the filter. Again, I don’t have any factual info to show that the bowl will help or hurt.

View brtech's profile

brtech

901 posts in 2387 days


#6 posted 04-05-2016 06:48 PM

I’m a broken record on this subject:
All of these things do one thing good, and only one thing: make it easier to empty chips

The all also do one thing bad: rob airflow and suction

The HF is underpowered in the first place. Adding anything in the path that decreases airflow is bad for your health. Adding the canister filter IMPROVES airflow, yes, so do that. It also vastly improves fines collection, so really do that. But replacing the bag with a Wynn cannister doesn’t get you enough airflow to be safe, it just improves it. So you can’t really say that it’s okay to upgrade to the cannister and then add a separator. It’s not. It’s better than the bag and a separator, for sure.

But adding an SDD, Thein baffle or wok decreases filtering ability of an already underpowered system. So, unless you just have to make it easy to clean out chips, don’t use any of them.

I’ve seen test results that seemed to indicate that the Thein and the SDD were roughly similar in the ability to separate and their effect on airflow. I haven’t seen test results on the wok.

Don’t do two of them, that’s really dumb.

I just don’t find it that hard to empty the bag and clean the filter every once in awhile. I’d rather more dust get into the filter then into my lungs.

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

614 posts in 1025 days


#7 posted 04-05-2016 08:37 PM


1 – The HF is underpowered in the first place.

2 – But replacing the bag with a Wynn cannister doesn’t get you enough airflow to be safe, it just improves it.

- brtech

#1 – That statement in itself is meaningless. Under powered as to what use? Powering a duct system in a large shop… Yes. Being used with a single hose to one piece of equipment at a time… No.

#2 – I’m not following. The Wynn filter is a big safety improvement from the stock filter bag that comes on the HF DC. Again, the air flow is fine when the HF DC is used within it’s capability.

View brtech's profile

brtech

901 posts in 2387 days


#8 posted 04-05-2016 09:15 PM

There is plenty of work done, notably by Bill Penz, on how many CFM it takes to get all the fines out of a single piece of equipment. The HF with 4 or 5” duct, even a short smooth one, doesn’t get enough to clear the fines. Now, Bill thinks you need 5HP and 6” ducts with realistic ducting to get enough. Most of us can’t afford that, but I think he is probably right. I think you need something like 800 CFM at the tool, and the HF, with the Wynn, doesn’t do that, even with a short straight duct.

Don’t believe the 1300 CFM you see, it’s more like 600 with a short straight 5” duct straight out of the inlet.

So, yeah, I think the HF is underpowered, stock, or with a Wynn canister filter. It’s much, much better with the cannister filter, and it’s by far the biggest bang for the buck, but it really isn’t enough, and it’s a bad idea to add a separator that robs even more CFM from it.

And, I have one, with the Wynn. I use a short piece of flex, one tool at a time. But I also use a mask when I’m generating a lot of fines.

And no separator

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

1113 posts in 2408 days


#9 posted 04-05-2016 11:01 PM

You have the SDD and it isn’t broke, so don’t….........

I ran my SDD on my 1-1/2 hp Jet, but moved it to my 3 hp Jet. The only thing in the bag, after about ten empties on the 30 gal drum is a cup of dust and the insulation it grabbed. It catches so much, there is no reason to try to do better, other than at the output filters to stop pumping super-fines into the shop.

I am thinking of pulling the SDD off my three horse and putting it back on the 1-1/2 horse, but only because I’m thinking of by a SDD XL for the big collector.

IF you put a canister on, invest in a paddle system to know stuff loose. THEN, every time you use it, shake the entire collector to finish knocking things down into the lower bag. It WILL collect on plates and rims and get, immediately, sucked back up, if you don’t.

My SDD is running a six inch input from the collector. That made a notable difference.

A cyclone will drop efficiency, but so will a dirty filter or bag. When I switch to using a Dust Deputy on my shop vac to collect off a Paint Shaver Pro, I was able to go from a mere few minutes to around a half hour between cleanings.

I bought a third collector, which is a pathetic one horse. Then I put wheels and handles on it and the SDD, so I could take it out into my yard and vacuum pine cones that were too big for a shop vac. Recently, a tree blew down and there was a lot of chips and dust from chain saw work. With the SDD, nothing goes through the impeller AND, even with the pathetic little Delta one horse, my yard looks nice again.

SDD working outside: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/125546

View Orple's profile

Orple

4 posts in 246 days


#10 posted 04-06-2016 02:02 PM

It sounds like the cone is really a rough (read: less efficient) stand-in for a cyclone or Thein baffle for those planning to keep their DC’s single stage. Curiously, I guess that those who have the new Jet with the cone already installed would have to remove it if they wanted to add second stage.

Anyhow, I’ll be passing on adding the cone—thanks all for the thoughtful feedback.

Orple

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

1113 posts in 2408 days


#11 posted 04-06-2016 04:16 PM

[gads I like how you have to correct things you wrote on the fly no later than a few hours after posting – NOT]

Interesting food for though Orple. I suspect the Jets are engineered for their set up, to coax things down, into the dump bag (P.S., if you’re running cloth on the bottom, go to clear plastic). That said, I wonder if the engineering lessened draw and removing the cone would be good, or if you’d be worsening things by tossing them out of balance.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

3926 posts in 2708 days


#12 posted 04-06-2016 06:15 PM

No one seems to have mentioned what type of media is being collected by the DC. If it is hooked up to a sander, you won’t have any chips; only fine dust. Hooked up to a jointer or planer ; you will have chips and little dust if any. Your DC effectiveness will depend totally on whether you are picking up dust or chips.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

3926 posts in 2708 days


#13 posted 04-06-2016 06:15 PM

Duplicate

View Orple's profile

Orple

4 posts in 246 days


#14 posted 04-09-2016 04:09 AM

I was just poking around and found this video on Youtube, so I thought I’d post it here for posterity in case anyone else asks the question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB9kc9pWJp0&nohtml5=False

Long story short: he’s got a DC with the dust deputy and a good filter, but also had the wok installed. When he removed the wok, it crushed his chip collection can (indicating a notable increase in suction).

Maybe the wok will save a barrel, but I’d rather have the suction!

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com