I’M SORRY, BUT STOP THROWING IT AROUND LIKE DIRTY LAWNDRY !!!! Is it a game that the one with the most posts wins? Every time someone posts a project the same people praise the HELL out of it. PLEASE STOP. If you see a good point bring it up and PRAISE IT. Don’t say “that’s great” and go away. Please be thoughtful about what you say. This person deserves your attention. If it will embarrass this person than email them and say the truth. We will all only learn from honesty !!!! THAT’S THE WAY I SEE IT !!!!!
-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".
Odie – I understand your point. However, I think I lot of folks throw out the praise without a lot of verbage because they simply can’t spend the time to comment at length about every project, but still they want to acknowledge the work that other LJs have done. I have actually received several private messages with comments about how to do something differently because the poster was not sure how to say it publicly without looking like they were ridiculing me in public. I think most people would very much like to comment on every project but there is just not enough time to do so. They instead send out a “great job” and go on their way.
Personally, I welcome all of those “great jobs” and all the private messages about how to fix or do things better.
With that said, we all have our opinions on this and I’m sure you’ll get others who will agree with you and those who will not. That’s what is great about this forum. We all respect each other.
Odie. I’m probably guilty of the 5 word comment, and other times I will make a couple of paragraphs.
If I don’t move quickly I’ll never get to the end of all of the new posts. I want to visit every one that I’ve never seen and go back to some after a period of time to read others comments.
I don’t throw praise around lightly. And I accept criticism, if its justified. There are different ways of doing something, and there are incorrect ways. I hope to point out ways that I think are incorrect. Cross gluing for example, I had those joint fail and I know they are wrong.
I think the only thing that matters is whether the praise is sincere or not.
If I don’t like the project, I just say nothing. If I really like the work, I may only say “Really nice work!”. I may say more, but not always.
Maybe it would be better if we had a rating system (1-5) where each project could get anonymous ratings? Or would everything quickly become a 5?
Another idea is an option to send a private comment. This would allow you to send non-public negative feedback (helpful criticism?). This would be easier than having to do the private message stuff.
Rjack: I don’t want to dispute your comments, but we are all learning here. It is sometimes helpful for all of us the find out what may have been done wrong. But if it is Butt-AS* ugly then it’s best to keep your comments to yourself.
I have been called upon to mediate some comments that went back and forth between two lumberjocks. It was not pretty. But it stopped. Reluctantly. they all wanted to put in the last word.
I like looking at projects and posting a comment. Sometimes I ask a question, sometimes I just say something about it that I like. Odie, enjoy the site the way you want, but every woodworking site is driven by a core few, the occasional poster and the lurker. As far as stopping praise? That’s an unrealistic request. Let’s everyone make sure we don’t upset Odie by praising Betsy for her progress. I’m not getting sucked into this any further.
-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)
I say even posting a project deserves a “great job”. Thats just for the balls to throw it out there! Even a scroll sawed cat out of cardboard is better than being afraid to post anything at all!
-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""
You are writing about me…not the most verbal person. I admire the writers who express themselves so well here, but that’s not me I’m a visual person. Which is kinda good for a woodworker and artist. Maybe only being here 90 days you haven’t got to see the growth in many of these woodworkers. So I’ll give you a chance to grow up and maybe even learn some social skills.
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT???? Sorry I tried to stop this, but it won’t let me. It will have to stay its course. My mouth does out run my brain….OH WELL.
-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".
Thank you Betsy…I thought I would run and hide…resign…withdraw what I said…SCREW IT. I can’t take back what I ment to say. This program won’t let me take anything back….So here I am…Take your best shot. You all (the elite of lumberjocks) Think I have tread on a sacred spot here. i dare you to look at what you have written in the last year and tell me you didn’t rubber stamp it. SORRY MY MOUTH OUT RAN MY BRAINS. S——Happens and sometimes I step too far. I will shut down for awhile.
-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".
Odie – you meant what you said and said what you meant. No big deal as far as I’m concerned. We have all opinions. I’ve been skewered for some of my opinions before and have been ridiculed by friends for being a woman woodworker. Sometimes it’s better to keep your thoughts private, but once the cat is out of the bag what can you do but deal with it. I’m sure that others have thought the same thing you detailed here – but were afraid to say it.
I just want to make sure that you do not stop posting. Your projects, posts and thoughts are valued by me and I’m important – so there! :-)
I’m not the swiftest person when it comes to typing, so sometimes I don’t say much. If you don’t care for something, I think its best not to say anything. Also I wish I was as prolific with words like some of the L Js.
The grading by numbers is way to impersonal. I’d rather see just a plain old ATTA-BOY rather than a number.
Yawn?, so your bored with the response to your post. Go back and look at your own post to other projects, I did.
Great post, nice way to stir things up, love your attention to detail, the way you use capital letters and the symbols placed just so, keep up the good work.
LOL Rah… Call me optimistically ignorant, but I never looked at a “great job”, or a “thats cool”, or “nice work” as a negative. I appreciate anyone that takes even a moment to look at my work and bother to comment. Weather they have allot to say, or just a two word sentence I appreciate it. So in return I try to comment on the projects that I think are nice. There are so many posted on here that its hard to look at and comment on them all…and sometimes all I would like to say is “nice job”...whats wrong with that? At least I took the time to acknowledge somebody’s hard work. I live by the old adage “if you don’t have something nice to post then don’t post at all”. So I guess you feel that if somebody doesn’t have a three paragraph dissertation and critique you feel that they shouldn’t bother to post at all? I have to say I disagree… and I dont “rubber stamp” anything. If I post a comment I mean what I write..if I dont like a project or I don’t have an opinion on it I don’t post.
WOW ! I’ve been coming to this site for about six weeks now, and I’ve been extremely impressed by the genteel and supportive atmosphere I found here. And now a bit of acrimony! I know I am new here, but I like the supportive attitude. If you don’t have something positve to say just don’t say anything at all, is what my my grandma used to say. (Don’t let your fingers tickle the keyboard!) On the other hand, if you see something that you may be be able to give helpful and constructive advice about, by all means, I want that, personally! I am here to grow, personally, and especially as a woodworker. I agree with Brad_Nailor’s position.
Tom (mot), Karson, Betsy (keep me posted on the get-together) and all the other core posters I’ve missed, I apologize, we appreciate you.
You guys are great!
Now I can gloat a bit, having watched the Cowboys put their stamp on the Packers, although the Packers did play well.
LOL…I guess we were supposed to agree with you? Don’t take it personally, Odie. None of us did. However, this site is what it is. We don’t celebrate mediocrity, we encourage woodworking of all sorts. I don’t see that you were all that offended at the praise you got for the box you posted. It looked pretty good. I liked the contrast. If I wanted to be an elitist jackass, I might have mentioned that making dovetails with a jig is like tracing Mickey Mouse and calling yourself a cartoonist. However…I didn’t, because I appreciate the effort no matter how it was done. Welcome to LJ, brother. We do look forward to your posts and projects. You’re going to have to eat a bit of praise though…sucks doesn’t it. :)
-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)
My response to posts falls into five categories: 1). If it’s something that falls outside my areas of interest, I usually don’t bother to look it over. The site has grown so much that my time here has to be measured or I would never get out to the shop again. 2.) If I look at it and it looks butt-ugly to me, I go on my way and hold my comments. 3.) If it is someone venturing beyond their usual boundaries and they have taken the chance to throw their work out into the arena, they deserve a pat. They will get it from me and I truly feel they desire the praise for taking a chance to grow. If that same person asks for ways to make things better, and I think I have a potential answer or I know a site, blog, project or forum that will point them along their path, I will provide the help they ask for to the best of my abilities. 4.) If the poster has done something that makes them proud, but I would have done it differently, they get their attaboy! or their you-go-girl! They are an artisan and it is after all, their path not mine. I’m neither so knowledgeable, nor so skilled to make a pronouncement about someone else’s work in a critical fashion. If they are doing something that from my own experience is going to give them grief down the road, I will offer unsolicited advice, which they can take or leave as they see fit. It is worth precisely what they paid for it. 5.) If it blows my socks off, I have a tendency to gush with ad-copy admiration just before I pester the hell out of them about how they did it, and can they give me some pointers so I can kick my own work up a notch. If it’s too embarrassing for me to pester them in public I have been known to pester them privately (Poor Bob#2 knows this all too well). So far no one has told me to bugger off, or made a point of keeping their techniques secretive and proprietary. Sometimes it’s so jaw-droppingly good and so far outside my current level of performance that I gush and leave it at that. I might place it in my favorites so that down the way if I entertain the thought of trying to push myself beyond my comfort zone and current skill level I can come back to chew on it later.
I like this site because the pros here share their experience and strengths, and because LJs isn’t a collection of snarky critical pseudo-experts that tear into those coming along in their skill paths. I don’t think we need to eat our young. There are other forums where that is the norm. I don’t go to those forums anymore. I keep coming here, and more and more people are doing likewise. So if LJs is too warm and fuzzy, and the tendency is to balance too much on the side of praise, so be it. If anyone is looking for a beat-down or a bare-butt spanking, send me a PM and I have some other sites I will provide a link to. I don’t expect to wake up to a full mailbox on this one.
-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.
Without the encouragement this would be a cold and empty place to be. My skills are limited and a quick look around the site shows me that I am nowhere near the elite (and there are some very elite folks here). Still, when someone with obviously more skill than me says “Good Job” it’s like a father putting his son’s picture on the refrigerator while all the while knowing that it ain’t no Picaso.
I must admit Odie, that your post is the first time in my life I’ve ever heard anyone ask people to stop saying nice things. That’s new for me.
-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.
My 2cents. I do think this thought has been posted before – people wanting more than “that’s nice”... It’s a nice thought that people will take the time to give a good critique for every project but it just isn’t going to happen. Some people simply don’t say much, ever, (and so a “that’s nice” is a REAL compliment from them); some people don’t have time to give a full critique (and so for them to take the time to stop and say “that’s nice” really means that it caught their attention and again is a REAL compliment); some people don’t have the expertise to provide critiques other than knowing what appeals to them (and so their “that’s nice” is all that they feel qualified to say and again is a REAL compliment, based on the appeal of the project).
I’m not sure who falls under your category of elitist LJ’s but I’m assuming it is those who appear the most in the discussions. That doesn’t make them elitists, just active. And we sure do appreciate that! My journey began here last January with no woodworking background, skills, or know-how.. just an idea that I’d like to try my hand at woodworking. In all of my time here, with all of my projects, however simple or “sad”, I have always received encouragement and praise for my efforts. I have never felt like I was a beginner amongst a group of experts. I have always felt that I was surrounded by a group of caring people who had a lot of skills to share. When my little projects get a “that’s nice”, well, I’m beaming with pride. Can you imagine?? Someone not only stopped to look at my little star but took the time to comment!!! It’s not a Kaleo, it’s not a Decou.. it’s a MsDebbieP and I still got a look and a comment. Boy, oh, boy, this place is great!!!
Also, over the past year, there have been a couple of spats over a non-woodworking topic. People voice their opinion; others respond with theirs and sometimes there are two (or more) extremes voiced by people very passionate about the subject. Debates are wonderful – they make you become aware of your beliefs and where you stand on a subject. Nothing wrong with voicing opinions or having strong opinions. The difficulty comes when people can’t shake hands at the end of the debate and say “good discussion. Thanks.”
Morning Odie, It looks like you stirred up something. It’s 5:57 AM and I’ve been on here for about 30 minutes. I take a lunch break and two breaks during the day. The rest of the day I’m in my shop trying to make a living at this very tough business. I make a living working wood and leather. If you are masochistic enough to want me to look up your projects and rip you a new one, believe me, I can. The reasons for my comments are simple; if I don’t like it I say nothing. In that way when that person does something I like, my comment will mean something. If that person pushed him self out there I’m prone to give an “Attaboy”. It has been my experience that cutting someone down is counter productive. Most of us are on this site because of the lack of nasty people and snotty comments. I mean what I say and say what I mean. With the top pros who post here, I seldom get long and loud with my praise because they know what they have put out there. The biggest compliment I ever got came from a cow boss in Arizona. I threw a perfect heel loop on an old cow and he said, ’”Pretty work!” Odie, I hope you continue to “Stir things up”. sometimes it’s what we need to clear the air. This is a “place” that is populated by an increaseing amount of members. I hope it doesn’t change from what it has become. By answering this type of forum we can at least let everyone know how we think. If I think someone is out of line, my response is to ignore them. If everyone does this they will go away. Now, Odie, you notice I didn’t ignore you. We value you as a member. keep up the good work.
Hey, Odie. Tell us what you think about global warming! And would you use exotic woods that don’t come from certified forests?
Is that how they spell laundry in California?
I, too, noticed that the same few people respond most often to the new posts.I’ve always thought they were sincere. I never thought it was to rack up the most responses.
I have little talent and no appreciation of art. If it weren’t for all these other folks my (our) world would be drab and gray (grey?)!
-- No piece is cut too short. It was meant for a smaller project.
Like most others I may not have the time or energy to post a full blown observation. heck sometimes im typing with one finger because I have the laptop in bed and I dont want to wake up DW (Dear Wife).
If it sparks something extra . . . like this one . . . I will take a little more time to respond.
Cheers
-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them
Hello everyone….Dennis is right. My social skills are lacking. Dennis you are wrong about something…it’s only been nine days. And that’s why I am very stupid to share what was on my mind without doing the homework. I have always suffered from “foot in mouth decease”. This time a really bad case.
We all use and view this site differently. Some of you have an attack of something if you don’t read every word. And that is what I was missing. I on the other hand skip around. Oh, a chair, I don’t do chairs…so onward. Others, on the other hand, look at every project, read every word, and comment at every one. And I have to admit… God Bless them for taking the time….I will not.
So, I am sorry for not doing my homework. I am sorry for thinking out loud. I am sorry for misspelling “laundry”. And most of all, I am SORRY for wanting to deny woodworkers of all levels the positive reinforcement and PRAISE they deserve and need. God knows I like it myself.
Karson….Thank You Ms. P…was this 100,000?
I type with one finger…It’s bloody and needs a rest…
-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".
Odir; Ops Mispelled Odie. Ops Mispelled Misspelled. Now that doesn’t look right.
How do you spell Misspell anyway. Oh that one didn’t didn’t light up red I guess I must be on now.
Odie. We welcome you and we welcome all misfits and infits (what’s the opposite of misfits anyway). We welcome all of the experts of the world and also all of those in between.
As long as its conductive to making us better at we do for a living or as a hobby then post away. Constructive criticism is a great tool as well. But if it falls outside the lines of woodworking and lands on taboos then take it else where. Those taboos for me would be those that don’t pertain to wood working. Such as, sex, politics and religion.
We recently had some flap falling in the range of politics and religion because the owner/creator of this site wanted to recognize those who helped him out. When I saw that I seriously considered bailing on this site. Instead I just don’t hang out like I used to because it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I do enjoy the workmanship and learning opportunities this site provides. So rather than let one individual turn me completely away I chose to do what I do now. Which is… If I see something that causes me to pause, give thought and consideration, then I will comment. Other wise, if I have nothing of quality(perceived) to contribute then like so many others I will just keep moving on.
Well my friend I can’t wait to see what happens in the next 49 days! Quite a bit of activity over here in the coffee lounge . . . :-)
Time to head back to the shop and get some work done!
As for posting comments, I do my best with the time I have online before or after work . . . sometimes just a supporting word or two and sometimes a chance to leave a longer comment. Either way I look at all the projects and feel very good that we have all gathered here to support one another. I look at all the faces above an smile thinking of past comments and gentle criticisms left on my postings. This is a great bunch that is opinionated and supportive. I think we all do our best in our own way.
Odie, I appreciate your last post. and yes that definitely gets us closer to that 100,000 haha you are too funny.
It’s a very good point that people come here looking for different things. Way back in “the pioneer days of chatting” I soon realized that people chatted for different reasons: some to vent, some to find friends, some to help others, some to listen to themselves and.. the list goes on and on and on.
Anyway, I think we’ve talked this topic right out the door….........
Oh no Deb, I want to get my one cent in. I remember starting out and posting my first post. After seeing Mark DeCou’s work and Dennis Mitchells and Karsons and Dick Cains I asked for critisizim and honesty and told them they would’nt hurt my feelings, I really wanted to know what they thought. What I got back was what they thought. Which was a lot of praise and encouragement, advise and introduced to the best bunch of people I’ve had the privlege to encounter on line. True, back then there was’nt as many people and we had more time to examine each others work and comment on it, but after seeing these real artists giving me praise for my work, don’t think my head did’nt swell. My woodworking up till then had been building houses and commercial buildings, gas stations , offices, etc. never made a piece of art since 1968.When I took a sculpture class in college shortly before being drafted. Just two words, Nice job. To someone like me, thats not real gifted, means high praise, indeed. mike
you are right Mike.. when someone with amazing skills takes the time to look at my work and then gives praise!! WOW… I need a new beaver hat—this one doesn’t fit any longer :)
By posting a project, a woodworker is in effect inviting for comments to be made. Good, bad and everything in between. I am in the very early stages of my learning curve as a woodworker. As I have stated in one of my previous post, I am in awe of the talent present at this site. When the time comes for me to post a project (it will be soon), I want to hear the most candid comments from these talents. Good, bad and everything in between.
“Good job!”, “Looks great!” and “Fine!” are fair comments. As are “You might try doing it this way the next time” and “You will be better off making it so and so..”. And if they are not sincere in their words, I’d take a good lie over a bad truth anytime, everytime. LOL.
This needs to be my last comment on this subject…sorry Ms. Deb. In the great words of that even greater scholar, Dadoo, “nuff said”. I have a lot work to do for my next posting…that ought to be fun…LOL…So, all I can say is sorry to some and thanks to others. Say good night Gracie….........
-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".
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