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Forum topic by BigBrownLog posted 03-20-2016 08:51 PM 852 views 0 times favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


03-20-2016 08:51 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question planer miter saw router sander tablesaw sanding modern traditional arts and crafts

Hey guys I’m pretty sure this has been discussed quite a bit but I can’t find anything clear to what I need a solution for.

I want to set up a collection system for my shop. I.E. a tubing/piping network spanning the shop with stations that I have dedicated hookups for each tool. I was thinking about clear tubing so you can monitor it for any clogs and whatnot. I was thinking about PVC as well but I’ll never know if it has a clog and I’ll have to snake the whole thing rather than where the clog is, if it ever does clog. I’m sure large chips, paper, etc… will get in there. I see rockler does have 3 foot lengths but that will take a lot of them for me to network the whole shop. From all you guys experience, what is the best option? Are there some 50’ or 100’ lengths of hose I can use to span the long stretches and hose clamp them to some short length tubing/pipe? What’s you recommendations through experience as to what my best option is. I do want to keep it cost effective. Also I’m planning on getting the 70 gal. 2 HP Industrial Dust Collector from harbor freight so I don’t kill my Rigid 6hp 14 gallon shop vac with long runtime and whatnot. I did make a separator that catches 90% of the dust before it gets to the vac. Below is a quick mockup of my shop dimensions. The left side is my workshop and right side is the open carport (all measurements are in feet) but I might close that in and make use of it all for the workshop when I expand my building of larger boats.

-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree


14 replies so far

View JAAune's profile

JAAune

1646 posts in 1783 days


#1 posted 03-20-2016 08:56 PM

There’s no way that Harbor Freight 2HP unit will pull dust through 50-100 feet of hose and through a cyclone and still have respectable suction. Flexible hose kills suction and the stuff with smoother interiors costs a lot.

I’d almost recommend buying two collectors and a shop vac instead of one collector and $500 of hose and fittings to create a single, central collection system.

-- See my work at http://remmertstudios.com and http://altaredesign.com

View BigBrownLog's profile

BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


#2 posted 03-20-2016 09:40 PM

I figured I’d put some gates in around every station so that the only run of suction would be from tool I open to vacuum source with the separator (saves the filter and motor) in between.

I don’t really need all the fittings. I’ll make them myself or just get PVC elbows and couplers, I’m just looking for a cost effective solution that reliably collects the dust. 7.99 for 3 foot of clear pipe seems high when I’ll probably need a total of 35’-45’ of pipe. It’s almost $100.00 for 30 foot of clear pipe from Rockler. $45.00 if I just go with 10’ lengths of pvc from home depot. I was thinking, if I wanted to get crafty I could rip a 1/2” width on the length of the pvc and cement plexiglass (I can get that for free or for pennies) or something else over that to create a window.

My 6 HP rigid is only $100.00 would it be wise to just get another of those and use that as a backup instead of buying a $200.00 2 hp from harbor freight? If the rigids ever break I can just get another one since they are half the price and are more powerful. Unless of course I come up with 2 grand for the 10 HP vertical ones that are out there.

-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree

View JeffP's profile

JeffP

573 posts in 858 days


#3 posted 03-20-2016 11:24 PM

First of all, nice ‘stache !!

You have what many of us would consider to be a HUGE shop space. Most of us struggle to put together a “low cost” system to serve our much smaller shop.

With a shop as large as yours, you will definitely need larger pipes and more HP than you are currently thinking.

Another possibility would be to re-organize your shop to put all of the dustiest machines in one area near the DC with short pipeage. Then serve the more distant areas where the smaller machines live with local shop vacs. I’m thinking things like sanders and bench top machines that typically have small dust connections can be served well enough by a shop vac with a good filter in it.

Locate all of the big iron with large DC connection together in one area close to the DC.

-- Last week I finally got my $*i# together. Unfortunately, it was in my shop, so I will probably never find it again.

View MadMark's profile

MadMark

978 posts in 919 days


#4 posted 03-20-2016 11:26 PM

Put all the blast gates at the vacuum manifold and not at the tool. This will reduce the static draw:

Use metal blast gates. Slip fittings come apart under vibration. Had to X cut the fittings and then band clamp the to make them hold over the long term.

Use clear tubing and 90° ‘bends’ instead of ‘elbows’. Avoid long runs with high lifts.

The more vac you use on lift & static the less draw you have at the tool. Flex hose is ‘lossy’ to vacuum draw as it tries to contract.

M

-- Madmark - Madmark2150@yahoo.com Wiretreefarm.com

View Jim Finn's profile

Jim Finn

2417 posts in 2388 days


#5 posted 03-20-2016 11:53 PM

I have a two horse power Grizzly dust collector and ran six inch metal duct all the way to each piece of equipment. Some have six inch flex at the equipment. In order to keep the total duct length as short as I could, I ran the duct along the wall at the floor level. The inlet to the dust collector is low also. To go overhead, like many do, you are adding a lot of pipe to the system Going up and down. I work in my shop 4-6 hours every day and have never had a clog in the duct in over three years of operation.

-- "You may have your PHD but I have my GED and my DD 214"

View BigBrownLog's profile

BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


#6 posted 03-21-2016 12:07 AM

Thanks Jeff, The `stache is for cinco de mayo celebration day.

the side of my shop that I currently use is long but it’s narrow, I have shelving, cabinets, center table and other shit that takes up some space is why I’d like to close the other side in and use it for long rips and whatnot, and so I can swing long pieces around.

Larger pipes? like 4” or what size. 6 HP won’t do do it ? that damn thing almost crushed my aluminum trash can that is my separator.

I am planning on reorganizing the shop so it’s more user friendly. The three main things that will get the most use and will produce most of the chips and dust are the table saw the planer, and router table. I will be multi-ripping tons of 5/4 6”8”6’-12’ into 1/4” thick strips to 1/2” thick strips. then plane both sides, then bead and cove on all them. After boat assembly I can put it in the yard and do all the sanding out there and it’s a lot of sanding.

Again thank you cause I definitely need to re organize the entire inside of my shop to make good use of space.


First of all, nice stache !!

You have what many of us would consider to be a HUGE shop space. Most of us struggle to put together a “low cost” system to serve our much smaller shop.

With a shop as large as yours, you will definitely need larger pipes and more HP than you are currently thinking.

Another possibility would be to re-organize your shop to put all of the dustiest machines in one area near the DC with short pipeage. Then serve the more distant areas where the smaller machines live with local shop vacs. I m thinking things like sanders and bench top machines that typically have small dust connections can be served well enough by a shop vac with a good filter in it.

Locate all of the big iron with large DC connection together in one area close to the DC.

- JeffP

-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree

View BigBrownLog's profile

BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


#7 posted 03-21-2016 12:12 AM

Thanks for this advice.

Are you saying put blast gates on the termination where the tool hose connects to the manifold? that’s what I was planning.

I plan on having all the piping at about chest level in the room along the walls so there’s little to no gravity to overcome.


Put all the blast gates at the vacuum manifold and not at the tool. This will reduce the static draw:

Use metal blast gates. Slip fittings come apart under vibration. Had to X cut the fittings and then band clamp the to make them hold over the long term.

Use clear tubing and 90° bends instead of elbows . Avoid long runs with high lifts.

The more vac you use on lift & static the less draw you have at the tool. Flex hose is lossy to vacuum draw as it tries to contract.

M

- MadMark


-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree

View BigBrownLog's profile

BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


#8 posted 03-21-2016 12:19 AM

Thank you Jim.

I was thinking that the big ass 2 HP from Harbor freight would be able to pull enough. Thankfully I live in south Louisiana and due to my past career I can get 6” steel pipe for free or next to nothing cause I know people and I know where I can find it laying around. I would just line my shop floor perimeter with 6 in steel pipe. Quite a bit of welding but I got that covered too. 14 years underwater welding.


I have a two horse power Grizzly dust collector and ran six inch metal duct all the way to each piece of equipment. Some have six inch flex at the equipment. In order to keep the total duct length as short as I could, I ran the duct along the wall at the floor level. The inlet to the dust collector is low also. To go overhead, like many do, you are adding a lot of pipe to the system Going up and down. I work in my shop 4-6 hours every day and have never had a clog in the duct in over three years of operation.

- Jim Finn

-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree

View sawdustdad's profile

sawdustdad

131 posts in 351 days


#9 posted 03-21-2016 12:37 AM

I have a 2hp grizzly collector. I ran about 30 feet of 6 inch metal duct along the ceiling, then added a 4 inch flex drop for the table saw, router table and shaper (each with a blast gate) and then at the end a metal 6 inch drop to the planer, jointer and drum sander, again, with individual blast gates. The planer has a 30 gal separator sitting right beside it. There are some reducers at that point that reduce the planer to 5 inches, the jointer and sander to 4 inches.

The metal duct is not cheap. I probably spent $750 for the ductwork and fittings to put it all together.

-- Murphy's Carpentry Corollary #3: Any board cut to length has a 50% probability of being too short.

View BigBrownLog's profile

BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


#10 posted 03-21-2016 01:01 AM

Thank you sawdustdad

I could get 30’ of duct pipe from home depot for less than $50.00, the 6” 90’s are $5.00 and I get a military discount. I’m seeing the advantage of having it overhead so you can move about freely. I’m still thinking I will lay mine out along the floor and wall intersection or at waist height along the wall with quick disconnects at each station


I have a 2hp grizzly collector. I ran about 30 feet of 6 inch metal duct along the ceiling, then added a 4 inch flex drop for the table saw, router table and shaper (each with a blast gate) and then at the end a metal 6 inch drop to the planer, jointer and drum sander, again, with individual blast gates. The planer has a 30 gal separator sitting right beside it. There are some reducers at that point that reduce the planer to 5 inches, the jointer and sander to 4 inches.

The metal duct is not cheap. I probably spent $750 for the ductwork and fittings to put it all together.

- sawdustdad

-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree

View JeffP's profile

JeffP

573 posts in 858 days


#11 posted 03-21-2016 11:15 AM

BTW, one thing almost everyone gets wrong when they first start reading/thinking/planning about “dust collection” is that despite the apparent similarity, a dust collector and a shop vac are NOT “almost the same thing”.

A shop vac pulls really hard on a small amount of air. A DC pulls rather weakly on a much much larger volume of air.

A shop vac is all about cleaning up visible detritus around the shop. A DC is about preventing and removing airborne particulate matter in the shop air.

Each of them does a little bit of what the other is designed for, furthering the confusion between the two.

I like to think of it this way…you might have a 2HP air compressor and a 2HP shop fan. If you blow the air at your face, the compressor might cool you down…but won’t do anything to make the shop feel cooler. Conversely, the shop fan could probably blow some sawdust around if it is close enough, but would be pretty worthless for most of the things we use compressed air for in the shop.

Oh, and by the way…there isn’t anything on the planet that can plug into a normal U.S. 120V socket and do 6HP of work. The math simply doesn’t work. A “6 HP” shop vac is simply a marketing lie that is bigger than a “4 HP” lie.

A typical outlet is rated for 15A. Watts is amps times volts. 15A * 120V = 1800 watts, which is 2.41 HP
(there is such a thing in the U.S. as a 20 amp outlet, but a dedicated 20 amp plug that won’t insert into a “normal” outlet would have about 75% of customers returning the item the same day they purchased it, so it simply wouldn’t fly in the consumer market…maybe in a “pro” market, but probably not since pro’s often work remotely where they have to make do with “normal” power – and 20A only gets you to 3.2HP).

Any claim on any device that runs on regular U.S. power that is higher than 2.41 HP is simply measuring the willingness of a marketing exec to lie to his/her potential customers.

Your shop vac may well be strong enough to suck the hide off a Rhino, but it isn’t 6HP. ;)

-- Last week I finally got my $*i# together. Unfortunately, it was in my shop, so I will probably never find it again.

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2198 posts in 947 days


#12 posted 03-21-2016 12:03 PM

You will find lots of good advice and the best is from the guys with experience. After building 2 DC systems here’s what I’ve learned:

1. You will never have to worry about a clog as long as you have enough CFM’s. Forgo the expensive clear pipe. I would never sink a ton of money into metal ducting. I recommend 6” S&D PVC.

2. Keep the system as compact as possible. IOW, don’t run DC pipes all over the shop for future expansion. Don’t just run ducts to your machines without putting some thought into machine layout. Big dust producters like TS, BS, DrumSander require highest CFM’s so keep them closest to blower. Shavings producers like planer & jointer are easy to collect can be further away.

3. Don’t try to collect every single machine you have. Running long lengths of pipe to collect a miter saw, router, orbital sander, for example, are not worth it and won’t perform well with a unit like this. I just use my shop vac it does a better job anyway.

4. For the size of your shop, it you really want to do it right, you should be looking at a 5HP unit, but its $$$.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View BigBrownLog's profile

BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


#13 posted 03-21-2016 09:30 PM

LOL thanks for the analogies Jeff and thank you for the electrical/mathematics lesson.

I was pretty damn sure the harbor freight one would move a larger volume of air and that’s key in these respects.


BTW, one thing almost everyone gets wrong when they first start reading/thinking/planning about “dust collection” is that despite the apparent similarity, a dust collector and a shop vac are NOT “almost the same thing”.

A shop vac pulls really hard on a small amount of air. A DC pulls rather weakly on a much much larger volume of air.

A shop vac is all about cleaning up visible detritus around the shop. A DC is about preventing and removing airborne particulate matter in the shop air.

Each of them does a little bit of what the other is designed for, furthering the confusion between the two.

I like to think of it this way…you might have a 2HP air compressor and a 2HP shop fan. If you blow the air at your face, the compressor might cool you down…but won t do anything to make the shop feel cooler. Conversely, the shop fan could probably blow some sawdust around if it is close enough, but would be pretty worthless for most of the things we use compressed air for in the shop.

Oh, and by the way…there isn t anything on the planet that can plug into a normal U.S. 120V socket and do 6HP of work. The math simply doesn t work. A “6 HP” shop vac is simply a marketing lie that is bigger than a “4 HP” lie.

A typical outlet is rated for 15A. Watts is amps times volts. 15A * 120V = 1800 watts, which is 2.41 HP
(there is such a thing in the U.S. as a 20 amp outlet, but a dedicated 20 amp plug that won t insert into a “normal” outlet would have about 75% of customers returning the item the same day they purchased it, so it simply wouldn t fly in the consumer market…maybe in a “pro” market, but probably not since pro s often work remotely where they have to make do with “normal” power – and 20A only gets you to 3.2HP).

Any claim on any device that runs on regular U.S. power that is higher than 2.41 HP is simply measuring the willingness of a marketing exec to lie to his/her potential customers.

Your shop vac may well be strong enough to suck the hide off a Rhino, but it isn t 6HP. ;)

- JeffP

-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree

View BigBrownLog's profile

BigBrownLog

61 posts in 1733 days


#14 posted 03-21-2016 09:53 PM

Rwe2156 you are correct that I would get the best advice from those with this specific experience and that’s why I ask for those with experience to lend advice.

1. I’ll take your suggestion and go with S&D PVC but I’ll have to do some looking because I just did a quick look and 30’ of that is around $100.00 but 30’ of air duct is less than $50.00

2. Yes I will be re-organizing my shop for ease of use and for the most effective collection.

3. Good advice I wasn’t planning to have them all collect at the same time but wanted to have the option in place if I wanted to use it. I.E. turn a valve or open a gate. I’m all about isolation and flow cause that was my profession for 14 years and that’s why I should have dispelled what the first guy said, because CFM knowledge was constantly used at work.

4. I agree with that 5 HP and that it’s costly but I’m pretty sure I can manufacture my own 5-6 HP blower/suction. When I reach the level of success I envision then I will Just buy all the crap I need anyway. I plan to Give F&S boatworks a run for their money at my peak level. Look `em up. They’re in Bear Delaware. I tried working there but they said they didn’t need anyone. Maybe one day I’ll build a sailboat that will challenge the Maltese Falcon. That thing is a frikin Marvel.


You will find lots of good advice and the best is from the guys with experience. After building 2 DC systems here s what I ve learned:

1. You will never have to worry about a clog as long as you have enough CFM s. Forgo the expensive clear pipe. I would never sink a ton of money into metal ducting. I recommend 6” S&D PVC.

2. Keep the system as compact as possible. IOW, don t run DC pipes all over the shop for future expansion. Don t just run ducts to your machines without putting some thought into machine layout. Big dust producters like TS, BS, DrumSander require highest CFM s so keep them closest to blower. Shavings producers like planer & jointer are easy to collect can be further away.

3. Don t try to collect every single machine you have. Running long lengths of pipe to collect a miter saw, router, orbital sander, for example, are not worth it and won t perform well with a unit like this. I just use my shop vac it does a better job anyway.

4. For the size of your shop, it you really want to do it right, you should be looking at a 5HP unit, but its $$$.

- rwe2156

-- Whoever said nothing is impossible has obviously never tried to staple water to a tree

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