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Forum topic by Jakemon posted 03-17-2016 01:25 PM 910 views 0 times favorited 13 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Jakemon

6 posts in 267 days


03-17-2016 01:25 PM

Hello folks, this is my first time posting here or anywhere about my new shop planning. I have recently gotten the green light to press with building my wood shop in my new house. This will be my first time setting up a permanent shop in a dedicated space in my basement. My shop at my old house was spread out all over the unfinished basement with no thought and no DC ducting. I have some questions I am trying to get answered before I make expensive mistakes/oversights. The images below are my first attempt at the layout and outlet plan. I plan on rewiring everything I can to 220v and run dedicated circuits to each.

The bathroom that takes up my space wasn’t the first plan for this shop space. We had the bathroom roughed in when we built the house last year and I got trumped on the other prime space where I had pictured the shop to be in during the build.

I can offer some info about the shop:
- Right now, I only have everything framed. 2×4 walls throughout.
- Yes, there is a sump hole in the back left corner. Again, If I was planning on this area being the shop, I would have had them move the sump and bathroom. I will box it in and seal it while leaving access to work on it.
- The main house panel is in the shop, 200A. I plan on putting in a sub-panel right next to it for all my circuits.
- I have a 3hp grizzly dust collector that I have taken apart and plan on modifying a setup with a cyclone and also to save space. I plan on ceiling mounting the ducting. (8’ open joist ceilings)
- Everything but the TS and DC is or will be on wheels, BS and DP are full height. Also, I plan on making the decks for the carts the same height as the TS outfeed table for a multi-use outfeed table/support table for everything.
- I will plan on running 12GA wire for all the outlets except for the lighting (14GA) and DC. (The 3hp DC is 220v at 18A running)
- I am planning on 4’ outlet heights throughout except for the outlets at the bench.
- I have a 60 gal air compressor that is living in my basement utility room that I plan on piping to the shop with various fittings and hoses around the walls and ceiling.
- The 2×6 bump in the back right of the shop is a foundation wall

Questions I have regarding my specific space and setup:
- Can I modify the 3hp DC to use only 1 bag. Every system I see at 3hp has 2 bags. (I also have a 1.5hp Jet CD from my old house that I can swap out if you folks feel it would be strong enough)
- Do I need to mount the DC motor with rubber bushings for vibration? I actually don’t even know if the thing works. I bought it at an auction (they said it worked) and have not had a strong enough outlet to test it.
- I don’t have a ton a room to work long boards. Is my table saw in a good place?
- Where the heck am I going to keep my lumber?? I have a 4×10x3 pile that needs to fit in the shop somehow.
- I have 2 10’ sections of bowling alley (the middle pine section) and I was planning on using one of them for my bench top. Do any of you have a reason not to use pine bowling alley? Do you have a creative suggestions for a use for the second piece?
- Where is a good resource for DC ducting planning for size and correct suction?

Thank you for your time and I appreciate any advice from you folks. Please let me know if I am out to lunch on any of these plans. This is Version 1.0. I am very excited to see this come to life.


13 replies so far

View crank49's profile

crank49

3981 posts in 2437 days


#1 posted 03-17-2016 02:01 PM

A 3hp DC at 18A on 240V will most likely need every bit of two bags; even more if you have the room.
Before I spent the money for a cyclone add on I’d look into replacing the bags with a big cartridge filter.
That would increase the air flow, reduce the pressure drop, and capture smaller particles at the same time.
All the cyclone provides is catching the larger dust particles before they get to the bags so you don’t have to empty the bag as often. The price of this luxury is loss of pressure available to capture dust at the source.
I install a drop out box in my ducts near the source and accomplish the same thing a way less cost and without the pressure loss.

-- Michael: Hillary has a long list of accomplishments, though most DAs would refer to them as felonies.

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Jakemon

6 posts in 267 days


#2 posted 03-17-2016 07:35 PM

Crank49, what is the reason for adding bags? Capacity? Or is it to share the airflow so I am not blowing out the bottom of 1 bag? I have not looked into cartridge filter yet. I also have a metal trash an with 4” in/out lid for larger particles. Thanks for the reply.

View PaulHWood's profile

PaulHWood

337 posts in 1719 days


#3 posted 03-17-2016 07:52 PM

I would say two 220V circuits would be enough, you will run your vac always and one other machine unless you have other people in your shop

-- -Paul, South Carolina Structural Engineer by trade, Crappy Woodworker by choice

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Jakemon

6 posts in 267 days


#4 posted 03-17-2016 08:25 PM

Paul, I plan on being a one-man-shop. However, if I was to have 2 people and 2 machines running, not including the DC, would I be fine with 1 30A tool circuit as long as the tools being used do not meet the breaker amperage capacity? Any tips on plug/cord types for the 220v circuits? I still need to rewire the tools that will allow it. Thanks for the reply.

View TheGreatJon's profile

TheGreatJon

296 posts in 699 days


#5 posted 03-17-2016 08:36 PM

I have my DC (2hp) share a circuit with my RAS (2hp) and my shaper (3hp). I never run the RAS and shaper at the same time, but I always run the DC with them. You just need to make sure your breaker and wiring is up to the required amperage. I think I have 10 or 12 gauge wire and a 30A breaker.

Your DC needs the extra bag in order to have somewhere to push the air out. It pushes air into the bags, but the air has to leave the bags somehow, otherwise else you won’t get any flow (suction). You would put a lot of backpressure on your motor if you only had one normal size bag. An alternative could be fitting a larger single bag. Give the guys at AmericanFabricFilter.com a call (1-800-367-3591). They can walk you through the needs and they will custom-make a bag for your set-up. Their prices are very reasonable.

You can put lumber racks on any free wall space, or even hung from the ceiling (just be sure to spread the load accross the joists).

-- This is not the signature line you are looking for.

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AZWoody

697 posts in 690 days


#6 posted 03-17-2016 11:13 PM

Another alternative to filter cartridges or bags is to have a cyclone to separate and dump the larger particles into a drum and then just direct the flow from the collector outside. If that’s a possibility, that will give you much more airflow through your ducting and will help pull more dust away from the machines.

Also, give it it’s own circuit and have circuits for the other tools.

As for ducting and planning, first read up on this site to get some ideas.
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/

It’s a lot of information but will help you start getting ideas for what you want to do it.
I know of some companies that will help you design your layout but they charge you unless you purchase from them.

View drcodfish's profile

drcodfish

120 posts in 418 days


#7 posted 03-18-2016 08:25 PM

When I stand at the TS, my bench is behind me (perpendicular to the saw feed). I find that I am often working between the bench and the TS, and being able to turn around vs ‘walk over there’ to get between these two work stations is most convenient for me. I have the planer and the jointer against another wall, (perpendicular to the bench) that way I have pretty much dedicated a longer space for working on long stock.

Because I don’t have as much space as I want, I have the band saw on the left end of this long wall, the two long stock tools just to the right of it. I have a lumber rack of sorts on the wall above these tools. In the middle of the space I have two fairly tall gorilla racks together. There I store some tools, jigs my finishing materials sanding materials etc. I have a tool stand between the TS and this storage tower on which I can mount my grinder, mortiser, and the jig saw, which I almost never use.

No 220V circuit, but I have 2 30A 120 circuits w outlets paired so that if I plug several tools in at one place I can split the load between the two circuits. I also have a 20A circuit for the radio, palm sander ect and the Dust collector, which is woefully inadequate (the DC).

This arrangement was a somewhat thoughtful consideration for work flow. I can imagine a couple tweaks, but I’m not doing this for production so no big deal if I have misplaced a piece of equipment. The big consideration was that I could move long boards through the process of dimensioning, breakdown and finishing, without having to an 8-12’ board any more than 90 degrees any more than once … in theory anyway.

I’d like to have a radial arm saw and a drill press, but not sure where they would go. My wood working hobby shares the larger space (two bay freestanding pole building w/small office) with enough landscape mtce equipment (including riding mower and trailer) to take care of an acre of grass, fruit trees, flower beds, veg garden and a KOI pond.

Oh yeah, along the wall on the ‘other’ side of the bench stands an antique, but very functional wood parlor stove – roof on trusses so putting in a SS chimney and black stove pipe was a snap. I put that in this winter, just after New years, my present to myself. THIS is the best shop upgrade I have made in as long as I can recall.

I have too many hobbies and not enough space, ... but I never lack for things to do, or honey do.

-- Dr C

View crank49's profile

crank49

3981 posts in 2437 days


#8 posted 03-18-2016 08:42 PM



Crank49, what is the reason for adding bags? Capacity? Or is it to share the airflow so I am not blowing out the bottom of 1 bag?
- Jakemon

Collector efficiency, especially the ability to capture small particles, is governed by the speed of air flow through the filter media. The slower it moves, the better it works. If you have a system that is moving 1000 CFM (cubic feet per minute) and the surface of the bags is 100 SQ FT, then you have an “air to cloth” ratio of 10 to 1. That would be the high end of what would be acceptable in an industrial collector, permitted and monitored under EPA rules.

Most hobby shop class collectors, like the (Jet, Delta, Harbor Freight and others) are really moving about 400 CFM through a single bag thats 2 ft dia by 4 ft tall. That bag has roughly 25 SQ FT of surface. That’s 16 to 1 ratio. Already pushing the air too fast. Simply doubling the number or size of the bag would make the filter work better, capture more fine particles, and have less resistance to air flow.

Since the cartridge type filters have a pleated surface the actual surface area is much greater than the apparent dimensions of the cylinder. I don’t know the actual area, but I would estimate it to be about 10 times greater than a bag that fits in the same space.

That is why people say they get improved performance from a standard bag type collector when they replace the bag, or bags, with cartridge filters. More surface area = less resistance and better capture of the fine dust.

-- Michael: Hillary has a long list of accomplishments, though most DAs would refer to them as felonies.

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Jakemon

6 posts in 267 days


#9 posted 03-19-2016 04:12 PM

What if I had the option to vent the 3hp DC system outside. What would be my best set up to catch as much as possible in the house before the possibility of blow fine dust at my neighbors. The wall I would vent to faces east and no one lives in that direction for a quarter mile.

I am still figuring out ducting type. Right know I am thinking of the spiral metal ducting vice PVC. I can’t afford $30 6” fittings!! Thanks again Crank

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crank49

3981 posts in 2437 days


#10 posted 03-22-2016 01:37 AM

Blowing dust collector exhaust outside would indeed get the dust out of the house. Couldn’t do this in an industrial shop under EPA’s rules, but it’s done all the time in hobby shops.

CAUTION: Blowing 500 to 1000 CFM of air outside will suck the same amount of outside air into your house. That would be air that is NOT “conditioned”. As in, cold air sucked in in the winter and hot humid air sucked in in the summer. Also, if you have any gas appliances you could suck the fumes and carbon monoxide exhaust into the house. Even a chimney, when there is not a fire in the fireplace will fill the house with a nasty smell from the creosote and tar that typically coat the lining.

-- Michael: Hillary has a long list of accomplishments, though most DAs would refer to them as felonies.

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Jakemon

6 posts in 267 days


#11 posted 09-23-2016 07:49 PM

Ok, I have been back at it! Working 3rd shift, 2 kids, and finishing my Bachelor’s at 30 doesn’t give me much shop time. The shop is wired on a 60A sub panel. I have 3×220v outlets on the same circuit and many 20A 110v throughout. The workbench is going in and I am stumped on what type of drawer slides to buy. I went with a 36” surface height, I am 6’2. Planning on using 2” pine bowling alley for the top.

All drawers are going to be 3/4” Birch ply with 1/2” bottom. The 2 lower drawers on each side are 12” deep and 30×26. The top drawers are only 6” deep, not 9” like the grid drawing shows. I have been looking for days at drawer slides and I like the soft close idea. I am planning on keeping my power tools in the drawers. So, I am worried about the weight of the drawer and tools with the typical 100lb slides.

The rectangle above the bench is a 6” deep tool cabinet the opens up with 3 inch storage in the doors too. My grandpa built it many years ago and it was passed on to me. He has it built with custom slots for hand tools and it still smells like his basement! Getting to use this cabinet is my favorite thing about my shop. He was a big scroll saw guy.

Disclaimer, I know I screwed up the kregs!! One more thing, if you think a blog on my shop build would be better for a chance at larger audience of experienced eyeballs, please let me know. I am learning almost all of this while I am doing it and I have questions at every step.

Thanks for reading.

View clin's profile

clin

514 posts in 462 days


#12 posted 09-24-2016 12:47 AM

There’s about a million versions of drawer slides. I STRONGLY recommend you buy them after demoing them at a display room. I put some soft close in, and while they work fine, they require quite a stiff pull or jerk to start opening them. Not the worst problem in the world, but I prefer not to have to brace myself to open a drawer.

As for weight, typical heavy duty, ball-bearing should be fine. You’re not keeping anvils in them. 3/4” drawer boxes seems like overkill. But I won’t argue with 1/2” bottoms.

Not sure what the screw up was with the pocket screws. Perhaps you mean that simply using them was a screw up. I would agree that as you’ve used them, it’s not great since the load is shear on them and a wood-to-wood joint won’t support the weight of the drawers, only the screws (in shear).

I suggest screwing and gluing some small blocks of wood under those horizontal supports to transfer the weight to the vertical supports and therefore not rely on the screws to carry the weight. This of course is just more screws in shear, but with some added glue.

That being said, entire wall cabinets are often mounted with just 4 screws. So likely these are fine as is with a total of 8 screws carrying the weight of each drawer.

I think 36” height is none too high for someone 6’2” (which I also happen to be). I did some built in shop cabinets and also built them at 36” tall. But this is more of a sit at it bench. My standing bench is about 39”. No right answer or formula. And heck, you can always shim the top someday if you want it higher.

And with everything on your plate, I guess we can expect to see the finished shop in about 2023 or so.

-- Clin

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Jakemon

6 posts in 267 days


#13 posted 09-24-2016 01:11 PM

Clin, I meant to use the Kreg. My screw up was the jig spacing, I drilled for 3/4 material instead of 1.5. I will end up drilling them all again with the right spacing, so the big drawers will have 8 screws holding each side of the drawer. I do like to overbuild so I never worry about it later on and I may take your advise and add blocks too. Everything will be covered in the end.

As for the slides, I want to order the Accuride slides from amazon. I felt a similar sample at my local woodcraft. The weight limit is still 100lbs. The accuride website talks about a max drawer width and my drawers will be wider than most recommended widths. Is this important to follow? I was thinking it was for the drawer possible bowing down in the middle and throwing off slide alignment. If I build mine from 3/4, there will be no flex.

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