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Forum topic by jivers posted 03-10-2016 02:28 PM 664 views 0 times favorited 16 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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jivers

2 posts in 272 days


03-10-2016 02:28 PM

Topic tags/keywords: drill press joining question

Greetings—I’m new to this forum as well as woodworking, and really am blown away by the creative possibilities. I’m also climbing (and loving) the very steep learning curve in terms of…well, everything from tools, accessories (i.e. jigs, etc.), joinery, technique – all of it.

I purchased a benchtop drill press and need a stand. While I could purchase one from a box store, I’m interested in building one and to that end have made a design using SketchUp (another learning curve) that is modeled off of the Shop Fox G7313 Tool Table. Basically, a small top surface with a wide base.

The design incorporates compound mortise and tenon joints—should be interesting figuring that out. I’ve attached the SketchUp 2D export. The sketch isn’t perfect, but it’s close enough. I saw this approach to mortise and tenons in a YouTube vid. Aside from the obvious m/t joints in the sketch, all other cross members will be biscuit joints.

Any feedback from the folks on this forum in terms of this design’s weight-bearing capacity would be greatly appreciated – thanks in advance!

https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/o3sb24x.jpg!


16 replies so far

View ChrisK's profile

ChrisK

1809 posts in 2545 days


#1 posted 03-10-2016 03:07 PM

Make sure the top is solid where the drill press is going to bolt to the top. You do not want to have the bolt clearance hole go through a glue joint. You might also want to plan on using the space under the top for storage. You can never have too many clamps or too much storage space :).

-- Chris K

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

1950 posts in 1452 days


#2 posted 03-10-2016 03:14 PM

I think that design will work fine.

However, I have made stands for some of my tools that have drawers for storage and are on locking casters. It makes it easy to move tools around and more storage is always good.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

694 posts in 851 days


#3 posted 03-10-2016 03:46 PM

A few thoughts…
1) Wondering why you didn’t have the mortises that are visible on the end of your picture at the same angle as the stretcher? It seems like it would be easier to cut and stronger to have them at the same angle. There isn’t much wood between the bottom of the mortise and the inside of the leg which seems pretty weak to me. It looks like you have only about 1/4” there and it will be easy to split that off. You could cut them before cutting the angle on the top of the leg making it easier to do. And the tenon on the stretcher would be easier to cut as well with the cheeks parallel to its sides. Personally, I think that it will look better too.
2) I don’t think that biscuits are a good way to join the other stretchers. If you don’t want to cut mortise and tenon joints for these I would use dowels or loose tenons. In my opinion, biscuits are too thin to provide much strength to the joint and are best used for alignment. Because these joints involve end grain, you will not good glue joint strength and the biscuits don’t add much.
3) I agree with ChrisK. Think about adding at least a shelf or possibly a drawer to the base. You’ll want a place to keep stuff you use with the drill press handy and with weight on those stretchers that would be another reason not to use biscuits to join them.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View bearkatwood's profile

bearkatwood

1202 posts in 475 days


#4 posted 03-10-2016 04:09 PM

I would make the mortise and tenons in line with the leg and have the skirting angled with the legs as well. The picture looks to have them more at a 90 degree to the floor. Figure out how to make this design and you can pop out some bar stools ;)
Oh and turn those two outside stretchers to be vertical and offset them from the front ones. Best of luck.

-- Brian Noel

View Gentile's profile

Gentile

262 posts in 1282 days


#5 posted 03-10-2016 04:25 PM

+1 on drawers or other storage…

-- "I cut it twice and it's still too short"

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

4854 posts in 2276 days


#6 posted 03-10-2016 04:27 PM

Everything I design for my shop now has drawers or doors. Storage, storage, storage.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View jivers's profile

jivers

2 posts in 272 days


#7 posted 03-10-2016 05:46 PM

Thanks everyone for the responses. Very helpful and appreciated!

I should have mentioned in my original post that I’ll include storage—agreed that you can’t have enough (my workspace is 12×24). I built a rolling stand for my miter saw that has a retractable castor system, and will do the same here. It includes a drawer and large cabinet where I store my circ saw, and has a pocket for round blades. I’ll encase this stand with 1/4” ply, as well.

@Lazyman—you’re right – not sure now why I didn’t just keep the tenons at the same angle.

Re: Dowels vs. biscuits, I suggested the latter only because I read somewhere that they’re stronger than dowels. Now I see that this is debated, and straight-up refuted here.

If I did dowel joints through the m/t joints, that would be sort of like pinning them? Or should I offset (thx bearkatwood)?

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

1752 posts in 602 days


#8 posted 03-10-2016 05:56 PM

Biscuits are primarily for alignment. They MAY increase the strength of a glue joint in some cases, but that’s not their primary function.

Design looks strong enough. I agree with having your through mortises parallel the leg and having the end stretchers vertical and offset.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

694 posts in 851 days


#9 posted 03-10-2016 06:28 PM


If I did dowel joints through the m/t joints, that would be sort of like pinning them? Or should I offset (thx bearkatwood)?

- jivers

With the through mortise, the dowel could just go through the tenon. The tenon is large enough that I don’t think that you have to offset. For the lower stretchers, You’ll want to make sure that the dowels don’t intersect, either by offsetting the holes or making then a little shallower if necessary. Purely from a design aesthetic point of view I would have the stretchers offset about 1/8” from the face of the legs so that they are not flush with the outsides of the legs.

One other thought…Since the top appears to be made from individual glued up boards rather than plywood, you may want to think about how you attach it to the base. It may need to be able to move just a little because varying humidity and moisture content will cause it to expand and contract, especially from side to to side (length of the board will not vary as much). This one is not that wide and may not be that big of problem but usually workshops and garages have higher humidity swings than a table indoors would. Because of that, you may not want to glue the top to the base and use slightly oversize holes to attach it. For example, if you attach blocks into the corners, you can drill a slightly oversize holes in the blocks and drive screws up from underneath into the underside of the top. The oversize holes will provide some give should things move a little. Just make sure that the blocks are well attached since you’ll have a very top heavy drill attached to it. If you use plywood for the top, you will mostly eliminate the wood movement issue. You can always put trim pieces around the edges of the PW to hide the plies if you go that route.

Also, I would consider adding a 2 ” overhang all the way around the top. When it comes to shop furniture, I like to be able to clamp things to my table tops and you need an edge to to that. Besides, it will give you room to set things down around the base of the drill press and also give you some flexibility for using this for a machine that has a bigger footprint than the current drill press down the road.

Looking forward to seeing this project post on LJ.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Rick M's profile

Rick M

7913 posts in 1843 days


#10 posted 03-11-2016 06:27 AM



Biscuits are primarily for alignment. They MAY increase the strength of a glue joint in some cases, but that s not their primary function.
- HokieKen

You have it backwards, the alignment thing comes from Norm using them to align edge glue ups and has become an internet myth that was the original intent. Biscuits were designed for joining pieces of wood together. They are not the strongest method of joinery, and no one ever said they were, but they are definitely a type of joinery and are useful and fast when used appropriately. Also, those slots in brass inserts—they are actually for a screwdriver (another internet myth busted).

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

694 posts in 851 days


#11 posted 03-11-2016 01:04 PM

He didn’t say that they aren’t a form of joinery. Another way of saying it is that most people only use them for alignment these days.

I think that the main point is that they won’t add much mechanical strength in this application where you are joining end grain. Tenons or dowels will provide a much stronger joint and is the preferred method of joinery for stretchers.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Rick M's profile

Rick M

7913 posts in 1843 days


#12 posted 03-11-2016 04:00 PM

I know what he said, no third party interpreter required, and it was incorrect. FYI, the correct joinery for that application is a mortise and tenon. Dowels are not better than biscuits. Why do think dowels got such a bad reputation, because they don’t hold. The people trying to rejuvenate dowels as joinery are people selling dowel jigs. While a dowel is stronger in the short term, they will not hold. I trust biscuits more in the long term because they swell and lock in place.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

694 posts in 851 days


#13 posted 03-11-2016 10:23 PM


I know what he said, no third party interpreter required, and it was incorrect. FYI, the correct joinery for that application is a mortise and tenon. Dowels are not better than biscuits. Why do think dowels got such a bad reputation, because they don t hold. The people trying to rejuvenate dowels as joinery are people selling dowel jigs. While a dowel is stronger in the short term, they will not hold. I trust biscuits more in the long term because they swell and lock in place.

- Rick M.

LOL! And people that want you to cut your wood instead of choping with an axe just want you to buy saws.

I guess I hadn’t heard that dowels got such a bad rep. Only time I have seen them fail is in mass produced junk where they probably aren’t clamped properly. Like any joinery, if you don’t do it right, it is likely to fail (that’s the voice of experience).

I just did a quick scan online and I could not find a single reference where a biscuit used to reinforce a butt joint is stronger than using dowels. In fact, in this YouTube video of a simple shear strength test, the biscuit was barely stronger than just a plain butt joint. If you watch to the second test of the dowel and tenon test where he uses longer dowels and tenons, the wood fails before the joint or the dowels do. I’d say, that is how you do it right. Even using 1/4” dowels beat the biscuit by double in this test.

WoodWorkWeb YouTube: Woodworking Joint Tests

Don’t get me wrong. I have used buscuits they are useful for the right application such as joining panels, especially with long side for face grain glue surfaces but a 2-3” butt joint stretcher with end grain, is probably its worst application. As I said before, it just doesn’t add much additional strength to this type of joint and I stand by my suggestion not to use biscuits for this application.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Rick M's profile

Rick M

7913 posts in 1843 days


#14 posted 03-12-2016 01:36 AM

You’re arguing relative strength which these discussions always devolve into; pointless because it’s based on misunderstanding the merits of different joinery. Also if google is your source material then you lack the experience to be arguing. Anyway my point was made.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View bondogaposis's profile (online now)

bondogaposis

4028 posts in 1814 days


#15 posted 03-12-2016 02:33 AM

The design looks solid and stable. However I would not want a drill press stand with out a cabinet with drawers and shelves. There are just a ton of drill bits and other accessories that go with a drill press and need to be be stored. , In most shops floor space is valuable real estate and a stand with out storage wastes some of that space.

-- Bondo Gaposis

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