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Forum topic by Heirloom posted 03-05-2016 04:43 PM 575 views 0 times favorited 24 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Heirloom

10 posts in 278 days


03-05-2016 04:43 PM

Greetings,

I’m building a dual spindle, sliding, router table dedicated to coping the ends of the muntins (window grids) I use in the historic windows I build. I have a couple of PC 7519 (Porter Cable 3.25hp variable speed routers) sitting around that I intend to mount under a modified MLCS sliding router table.

My question is wiring. First, neither of the VS works on the routers. It appears they just run full speed regardless of the setting. So, I’d like to disable the VS and wire them directly from switch to field. While I’m doing that I’ll need to reverse the direction of one, which is the purpose of this whole exercise – having two identical cope knives running opposite so I can back cut the cope to eliminate blow-out.

Thirdly, since I’ll be using small moulding heads to hold the knives, I need to reduce the speed to around 12K. I’d like to use a single controller to switch and adjust the speed but between the two routers we’re looking at 30 amps. So will they really use 30 amps if I’m not working them hard?

Does anyone have any suggestions on any of these issues? And here they are again…

1. Wiring around (to eliminate) variable speed
2. Wiring for reverse direction
3. Speed reduction
4. 30 Amps, how to handle

Cheers!

-- http://www.heirloomwindows.com/


24 replies so far

View MadMark's profile

MadMark

978 posts in 918 days


#1 posted 03-05-2016 09:29 PM

Buy the correct tool:

M

-- Madmark - Madmark2150@yahoo.com Wiretreefarm.com

View JackDuren's profile

JackDuren

137 posts in 424 days


#2 posted 03-05-2016 09:40 PM


Greetings,

I’m building a dual spindle, sliding, router table dedicated to coping the ends of the muntins (window grids) I use in the historic windows I build. I have a couple of PC 7519 (Porter Cable 3.25hp variable speed routers) sitting around that I intend to mount under a modified MLCS sliding router table.

My question is wiring. First, neither of the VS works on the routers. It appears they just run full speed regardless of the setting. So, I’d like to disable the VS and wire them directly from switch to field. While I’m doing that I’ll need to reverse the direction of one, which is the purpose of this whole exercise – having two identical cope knives running opposite so I can back cut the cope to eliminate blow-out.

Thirdly, since I’ll be using small moulding heads to hold the knives, I need to reduce the speed to around 12K. I’d like to use a single controller to switch and adjust the speed but between the two routers we’re looking at 30 amps. So will they really use 30 amps if I’m not working them hard?

Does anyone have any suggestions on any of these issues? And here they are again…

1. Wiring around (to eliminate) variable speed
2. Wiring for reverse direction
3. Speed reduction
4. 30 Amps, how to handle

Cheers!

- Heirloom

If I remember correctly, you don’t need a speed controller on a speed controller but you can if the speed controller on the router is bad.

You don’t need to reverse the rotation of the router, just set it up to take 1/2 off the first dont want 30 amps on both routers you might burn one up or both.

View JackDuren's profile

JackDuren

137 posts in 424 days


#3 posted 03-05-2016 09:52 PM



Buy the correct tool:

M

- MadMark

Or just make it…

View MadMark's profile

MadMark

978 posts in 918 days


#4 posted 03-05-2016 10:22 PM

Agreed – trying to make equipment do something its not designed to do is foolhardy. You need a multihead shaper, jerry-rigged router just ain’t gonna cut it.

M

-- Madmark - Madmark2150@yahoo.com Wiretreefarm.com

View Ger21's profile

Ger21

1047 posts in 2596 days


#5 posted 03-05-2016 11:11 PM

I did a quick google, and found it was not advised to try to reverse the direction of a brushed AC motor. It was mentioned that performance would potentially be greatly reduced.

If you must run in reverse, but a chinese spindle and VFD.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-ER20-AIR-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-MATCHING-2-2KW-INVERTER-DRIVE-VFD-FOR-CNC-/251832589290?hash=item3aa2645bea:g:pIIAAOSweW5U2Z2N

-- Gerry, http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/index.html http://www.jointcam.com

View poopiekat's profile

poopiekat

4225 posts in 3199 days


#6 posted 03-05-2016 11:27 PM

Does anyone even make a router bit that will cut in a reverse rotation?

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

View Heirloom's profile

Heirloom

10 posts in 278 days


#7 posted 03-06-2016 01:09 AM

Thanks for all the input but I think there’s been some miscommunication based on the tools I see above. I’m not a hobbyist. I use an Extrema double sided planer to flatten and plane, an Altendorf sliding table saw to straight line and rip to width, a Whitney 91, 10hp shaper, setup with a sliding table to run my 10” coping heads for 2.5” coped tenons and a Maka four head mortiser for square holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxMsdlxYVbA In case you want to see how to make two perfectly sized and spaced mortises in twenty seconds (that’s me BTW)

None of the machines above would come close to what I need to do with these little muntins and they are serious overkill. In order to resolve blowout (rather than using a coped backer) the cutters MUST run CCW and CW. That’s what a jump coping head does on a high end double-end tenoner.

I need to clamp this 3/4” wide, 7/8” tall and 6” – 24” long piece into a sliding table and move it back into one coping head and forward into one spinning the opposite direction. My latest contract is for 35 8/8 double hung windows and by my calculations I will have over 1000 copes to make on the muntins alone.

If I needed any pre-made machine it might be the one below but it’s still overkill.

I’d be open to places I could get some spindles I could mount in/on the MLCS sliding table, that would handle a light weight moulding head.

Thanks again and Cheers!

-- http://www.heirloomwindows.com/

View Heirloom's profile

Heirloom

10 posts in 278 days


#8 posted 03-06-2016 01:12 AM

And yes a CW can be made custom. Riverside Tool in Elkhart IN made my latest bi directional coping setup for full blown coped tenons and they can do the same for router bits.

-- http://www.heirloomwindows.com/

View JackDuren's profile

JackDuren

137 posts in 424 days


#9 posted 03-06-2016 01:59 AM


Thanks for all the input but I think there s been some miscommunication based on the tools I see above. I m not a hobbyist. I use an Extrema double sided planer to flatten and plane, an Altendorf sliding table saw to straight line and rip to width, a Whitney 91, 10hp shaper, setup with a sliding table to run my 10” coping heads for 2.5” coped tenons and a Maka four head mortiser for square holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxMsdlxYVbA In case you want to see how to make two perfectly sized and spaced mortises in twenty seconds (that s me BTW)

None of the machines above would come close to what I need to do with these little muntins and they are serious overkill. In order to resolve blowout (rather than using a coped backer) the cutters MUST run CCW and CW. That s what a jump coping head does on a high end double-end tenoner.

I need to clamp this 3/4” wide, 7/8” tall and 6” – 24” long piece into a sliding table and move it back into one coping head and forward into one spinning the opposite direction. My latest contract is for 35 8/8 double hung windows and by my calculations I will have over 1000 copes to make on the muntins alone.

If I needed any pre-made machine it might be the one below but it s still overkill.

I d be open to places I could get some spindles I could mount in/on the MLCS sliding table, that would handle a light weight moulding head.

Thanks again and Cheers!

- Heirloom


I think the question was answered based on the info in the original question. I am not a hobbyist either but rather a professional of 32 years in residential/commercial and now furniture maker in a building that is 200,000 sq ft and occupies anywhere from 51-200 employees. The company also represents sales of SCMI in Kansas. city.
Now as far as the sliding action on the router that will be in the making on your end. It sounds to me if it has a purpose than there is no such think as overkill. Your not linked with http://www.re-view.biz/ in Kansas city are you?

Buy the correct tool:

M

- MadMark

Or just make it…

- JackDuren


View Heirloom's profile

Heirloom

10 posts in 278 days


#10 posted 03-06-2016 03:52 AM

Sorry, I’m confused with the ”-MadMark” and the ”-Jack Duren” so I don’ t know to whom I’m speaking.

However, I’m convinced that I’m not making myself clear regarding the cuts I need to make. Look at this illustration….

So please explain to me how I’m to cut the end of this work piece from both directions (CCW & CW) on the machine you’ve attached, without reversing the direction of one of the spindles and/or with out removing the piece from it’s jig more than once.

-- http://www.heirloomwindows.com/

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Heirloom

10 posts in 278 days


#11 posted 03-06-2016 03:58 AM

Also, I have investigated those machines and they are not appropriate for my “traditional window and door” manufacturing applications. They are to cope a cabinet rail end, profile the stile and raise the panel. I do not believe that they have the capacity to cut 5” tenons in a door rail. Correct me if I’m wrong.

-- http://www.heirloomwindows.com/

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Heirloom

10 posts in 278 days


#12 posted 03-06-2016 04:06 AM

I am not connected to “Re-view” but some might consider them my competitors, though they don’t produce a product or have a service anything like mine (we both try to convince customers that ours is the right solution).

-- http://www.heirloomwindows.com/

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Heirloom

10 posts in 278 days


#13 posted 03-06-2016 04:24 AM

This is an image of what needs to happen…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rbJxL80ff0

It’s a jump cope tenoner that intentionally cuts from both sides in order to eliminate blow out. I just don’t have the resources to get a double end tenoner with jump cope yet and I doubt if it would handle 6” stock. I need to make my own or find a machine specifically for this application.

-- http://www.heirloomwindows.com/

View JackDuren's profile

JackDuren

137 posts in 424 days


#14 posted 03-06-2016 05:08 AM

We made entry doors in the 80’s doing as you describe but I wasn’t the operator at the time and can’t forward any information.But with cabinet doors for glass we often a backer board is used to eliminate tear out.

So to me it looks like you need to run the ends first and then the lengths. This would erase any tear out which would be small..

Have you tried this method?

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

5765 posts in 951 days


#15 posted 03-06-2016 05:23 AM

Would it be possible to mount a router above and below and have bits with reverse profiles?

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

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