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Forum topic by BobD posted 02-15-2010 09:24 AM 2659 views 0 times favorited 17 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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BobD

52 posts in 2876 days


02-15-2010 09:24 AM

As part of a remodel, I removed two glass French doors and used paint stripper to remove the old paint. I then sanded to raw wood and applied an undercoat and two layers of finish paint. I installed new satin nickel 4” hinges. The hinges didn’t line up perfectly and had to loosen the screws in the jamb bracket to get the doors reinstalled. Now the doors don’t close properly. The doors rub against each other. I’ve rechecked the proper installation of the hinges. The upper and lower jamb locks on the inactive door don’t slide into their mortises. What has happened to these doors? Is it possible that the new hinges are just slightly wider, thereby causing the doors to rub. How do I fix the doors?
Should I rip a small amount of the door so they close. If so which door and do I rip the hinge side or the side where the doors rub?
Suggestions appreciated.

Bob
San Diego

-- Bob, San Diego


17 replies so far

View John Ormsby's profile

John Ormsby

1283 posts in 3200 days


#1 posted 02-15-2010 09:59 AM

what is the gap around the doors and jambs when closed? The hinges could be the problem. Also, the doors ma have swelled a bit after they were stripped. Please, do not do anything with the doors until you have resolved the problem.
Could you post a couple of photos?

-- Oldworld, Fair Oaks, Ca

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Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 2578 days


#2 posted 02-15-2010 10:26 AM

That´s unluck and way over my skill
but try asking Charles Neil or A1Jim
I´m sure they will help you

Dennis

View Waldschrat's profile

Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#3 posted 02-15-2010 12:03 PM

Bob,

It sounds like you have some old doors that worked before, and have been acclimated to the local climate for some time now. I would put my money on the hinges. I do not know what specific kind of hinges you have, but I think that I might know what the problem is. Basically you need to take both hinges (old and new ) and compare them exactly and closely to see what the difference is.

Hinges have different quality/price catagories. Usually the cheaper or more economically made hinges (independent of material) are not made to that great of a tolerance. If one compares a bottom shelf hinge rolled or cast into into its shape, to one that has been milled out by hand or per CNC, the tolerance is world of diffenece. The amount one needs to let in a cheap hing is quite a bit more than the amount by the high quality.

What I am trying to say is that perhaps the old hinges were of better tolerance and had less gap space between the leafs of the hings… the new one, persumably has a millimeter or more space between the leaves when its in the closed position, which is enough to cause the closing problem when built in… this is effectively doubled when you have double doors with double the hinge differnce added.

There is another possibility. It could also be that you a have a slightly larget pin diameter. that times 2 = tight closing door… you mention you had they did not fit properly. Perhaps the distance between the swivel point (or turning point of the door) and the door jamb has changed.

I hope this helped a bit, I bet this is the problem though.

Nicholas

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

View tbone's profile

tbone

273 posts in 3147 days


#4 posted 02-15-2010 05:40 PM

My guess is the hinges. A foolproof way to test it is to re-install the OLD hinges and see if the door fits like it did before. A typical residential standard-weight hinge will be .085” gauge metal. An architectural hinge may be .134”—quite a difference.
Make sure your hinges are flush to the door. If they are, your gap between door and jamb should be about 1/16” http://www.hagerhinge.com/Documents/ProductTemplates/T399.pdf If the hinges are not flush to the door, then re-mortising will be required.
Trimming the doors should be a last resort. And if you do trim them, then do the inactive door first, and trim the HINGE side and re-mortise (it will be much easier than messing with the flushbolt preps.

-- Kinky Friedman: "The first thing I'll do if I'm elected is demand a recount."

View Dano46's profile

Dano46

80 posts in 2632 days


#5 posted 02-15-2010 05:51 PM

The problem could be swelling, but I wouldn’t think so. Check the reveal on the sides and top. I’ll bet it’s wider on the sides. If thats the case, you will need to mortise the hinges a tad.
If you feel you need to rip the edge, always rip the hinge side, otherwise you can mess the lockset up. Now if it’s just rubbing at the top or bottom, than can be planed off. It’s hard to guess, because, there are to many variables. I don’t think there is a perfect door installation…....ever. Good luck.

-- You can't trust a dog to guard your food.

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Mogebier

170 posts in 2496 days


#6 posted 02-15-2010 05:59 PM

Did you check the door jamb to make sure it is solid after you took off the hinges?
I re-did our front door and it was all wonky after I re-installed it and it turned out the hinge side jamb was ONLY being held in by the screws in the hinges. After I put in some shims and long screws, it made it nice and straight again.
Goofy people made my house.

-- You can get more with a kind word and a 2 by 4, than you can with just a kind word.

View Waldschrat's profile

Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#7 posted 02-15-2010 06:25 PM

I guess what tbone said, was what I was trying to describe, I think you might have to mortise the hinges deeper in the door

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

View BobD's profile

BobD

52 posts in 2876 days


#8 posted 02-16-2010 04:56 PM

I think the consensus to the problem points to the hinges. That was my first impression also. I removed the old cheap looking gold hinges and replaced them with satin nickel. I compared the width of a fully closed hinge from the new hinges with the old hinges and discovered that the new hinges are 1/32” wider. So combined with the other side that would make it 1/16”. Am I correct in assuming that the 1/16” would make the gap between the doors smaller by that amount? I’ve compared the new and old hinges and they measure the same, including the pin (exactly the same diameter). Also the doors do not rub at the top or the bottom.
So I need to fix the hinges. Question…..do I re-mortise the hinges deeper in the door or in the jamb? Or do I do both? Seems to me that if I just deepen the mortise in the jamb it would be enough.
The next question relates how best to re-mortise the hinges. Is this a job for a router or a sharp chisel? The new hinges have rounded corners not square (or right angle) corners. If I use a router I will have to make some sort of jig to do the job vs trying to do it free hand. I have a Porter Cable plunge router. Any suggestions for making an in place jig for the door jambs?

-- Bob, San Diego

View patron's profile

patron

13535 posts in 2804 days


#9 posted 02-16-2010 05:22 PM

as a door installer for many years ,
one of the first fixes i do ,
is ’ tweak ’ the hinges .
i just cut up the cardboard box the hinges came in,
into shim strips , ( maybe 1/4” wide ) ,
if you loosen the hinge a little and want the door to move towards the jamb ,
place a shim under the back behind the screws , and re-tighten ,
it will make the door pull to the jamb slightly .
if they are placed in front of the screws ,
it will make the doors move away from the jamb .
when i have to get a sagging door to ’ square ’ up ,
and lift off of the threshold ,
i do the top hinge in the back ,
and the bottom in the front ,
if there is room around the jamb .
sometimes i make thicker shims by cutting my shims wider ,
and folding them 1 or 2 times ( so i don’t have them falling out like confetti )
any combination of this may be necessary to ’ walk ’ the door into position .
some times i do it on the door side ,
you just have to check it out with each door ,
until it works again ,

good luck , i hope this is understandable ?
if not pm me , and i can do a sketch for you .

-- david - only thru kindness can this world be whole . If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle

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Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 2578 days


#10 posted 02-16-2010 05:44 PM

Patron put on the mask again you skare the yung ones remmember we have kids looking ha ha ha ha

Dennis

View Waldschrat's profile

Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#11 posted 02-16-2010 06:04 PM

I think you are on the right track, if the doors are not closing because of wider new hinges then you will need to re mortise the door (thats the easiest).

If the doors are as you mentioned are not closing because they are catching on top or bottom it would be wise to do something like patron said, shimming out the hinges with veneer or cardboard, whatever until the door is in plumb.

Mortising is usually done the quickest with a sharp chisel and some graciousness and patience with hand movements, I don’t know what you are more comfortable with… take the machine if youare good at it, besides the leaves of the hinges are rounded.

hope it works out!

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

View Julian's profile

Julian

880 posts in 2988 days


#12 posted 02-17-2010 01:38 AM

I’m with Skeezics on this one. Try a 3” screw in the top and bottom hinge of each door and see if that helps before trying out the other techniques.

-- Julian, Park Forest, IL

View BobD's profile

BobD

52 posts in 2876 days


#13 posted 02-17-2010 04:47 PM

Ok I have a nice set of Record chisels to use. Now the question is…..how do you get repeatable depth when mortising 6 hinges?:

-- Bob, San Diego

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Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 2578 days


#14 posted 02-17-2010 08:39 PM

.

View Waldschrat's profile

Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#15 posted 02-17-2010 10:22 PM

practice ;-)

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

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