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Forum topic by BOB67CAM posted 02-03-2010 11:54 AM 1253 views 0 times favorited 33 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1824 days


02-03-2010 11:54 AM

Topic tags/keywords: tip question cherry padauk joining

ok if you dont know me yet, im very much a newb to woodworking but i think im catching on a bit anyways..lol
but heres my predicament, i wasnt thinking about weight really being a factor when i started my project but as i kept going i realized weight would maybe become an issue, so im trying to figure out a joint for this appliocation that will hold up better then just glueing it and that i can actaully do, so simpleer is probly better for me but definitely willing to look at anything
heres a couple pics to show what is going on
p.s. youl have to excuse the weeks worth of dust while ive been thinking on this and so the incerdibly huge pics, but details are good no?..lol
coffee table corner
coffee table joint 2

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea


33 replies so far

View patron's profile

patron

13182 posts in 2094 days


#1 posted 02-03-2010 12:10 PM

did i miss something here ?

what is the question again ?
are the wrinkles in the plastic part of the puzzle ?
where is the joint ?
why is your shoe in the picture ?
i think you need to shrink your pics ,
the part you want us to look at is maybe missing ?

i guess my main question is , HUH ?

-- david - only thru kindness can this world be whole . If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle

View Waldschrat's profile

Waldschrat

505 posts in 2188 days


#2 posted 02-03-2010 04:27 PM

I think I know what you mean, or what your asking but it all depends on what you are armed with in the shop in the area of joining technology… do you have a biscuit joiner, do you have drill press, mortise machine, or perhaps a jig for drilling dowel joints with a drill?

I guess what I would do if you are looking at doing more wood work in the future and do not already have one is use a biscuit joiner, they are fast and relatively economical. Not to mention one has a little room to move back and fourth if not exactly joined perfectly… with dowels its not so easy, or forgiving, but they are just as good… I am more of the biscuit fan than a dowel fan. Thats what I would go with.

Drilling dowels on a bevel/mitre like that is not that easy, but you could try that and just joint it with dowels.

Those are the easiest options. I do not think that using glue alone will hold all that well. or not as well as it could.

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

View Peter Oxley's profile

Peter Oxley

1426 posts in 2627 days


#3 posted 02-03-2010 04:39 PM

Biscuits into the end of a miter can be tricky – they will come out the front of your piece if you aren’t really careful. Plus, they would have to be very close to the inside edge of your corner piece which would weaken the joint on that side. In fact, you’ll have that problem with almost anything you try to insert into the joint at this point – dowels, floating tenon, etc. Pocket screws would be tricky, too, but not impossible.

I think I’d add corner blocks. They are easy to make and install, they’re strong, they don’t require special tools, and they would help hold your sides square to each other.

If I’m not explaining clearly, let me know and I’ll do a quick drawing to show what I mean.

-- http://www.peteroxley.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

View Andrew's profile

Andrew

709 posts in 1951 days


#4 posted 02-03-2010 04:46 PM

If you do go with biscuits, let the glue dry (they say 24 hrs) 48 hrs to be safe. The moisture in the glue causes the biscuit to swell creating a bump in the peice, then the glue dries and the bump disapears. If you sand or machine while the bump is there, then when it dries you will have an indentation at the biscuit joint. The only hard part is waiting, 2 days.

-- Even a broken clock is right twice a day, unless, it moves at half speed like ....-As the Saw Turns

View CharlieM1958's profile

CharlieM1958

15817 posts in 2971 days


#5 posted 02-03-2010 05:24 PM

To me, biscuits look like the best option. I realize this may be a bit of an initial investment, but you will find it a very useful tool on future projects. I would place the biscuits approximately where I indicated in the photo, and I don’t think there would be much problem with possible cut-through or telegraphing.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

View Joshua Howe's profile

Joshua Howe

71 posts in 2227 days


#6 posted 02-03-2010 05:25 PM

Hey Man,
Don’t over think it you have already cut to much off for standard dovetail or tenon joint so that eliminates a lot of ideals so one way of looking at it as you don’t have to think about those. So your ops are: loose tenon, dowel, biscuit(had one for breakfast), or pocket hole. If the top on this table is solid use pocket hole screws to fasten and glue taking this is a table not real sure on the “project”. loose tenon is probably the hardest but guess what no one will be able to see how sloppy your holes are anyway dowels are easy don’t let them fool you just drill the holes in the cherry first because thats ur angle buy some dowels and dowel thing abobs with the metal point that go in the hole. before drilling make sure everything is the same size drill straight hehehe! so if your looking at the angle the long end or the end on the out side drill so the dowel is at the farthest from here. basicly imagine dowel coming straight out of puduka int angle cherry you wont to get as much depth into cherry so not the long outside point but the short inside part of the angle I could draw you a pic. so okay dowel didnt line up right no prob its all hidden either redrill wobble the hole or over size the hole so now hole is to big for dowel epoxy dowel in hole then glue her together simple just remember not to focus on dumb things like what a joint looks like when you cant see it. Joint ar meant to add strength. loosen tenon pretty much the same way but two holes and a little chisel work same concept though. good luck have fun and dont worry about the joint just smoke it.HEHE! I kid!

-- Wood,clay,metal, and stone are all just materials, until an artist's hand touches them.--TreeFormDesign

View richgreer's profile

richgreer

4525 posts in 1827 days


#7 posted 02-03-2010 05:39 PM

Based on what I see, I agree with several fellow LJs on using biscuits. However, I will serve up another alternative that would be even easier (but less elegant} – pocket holes. You would have to convert your miter joint to a butt joint but pocket holes (with the right screws) are very strong and they are very easy to do. I think they are great for newbs. The Kreg jig is the best and the Kreg screws are the best. However, there are cheaper jigs available. Even if you use a cheaper non-Kreg jig, I would still recommend Kreg screws (fine grain for hardwoods, course grain for soft woods).

If the pocket holes will be visible, you can fill in the holes with plugs. Once they are glued in place and sanded down they blend in nicely – but they are still visible.

-- Rich, Cedar Rapids, IA - I'm a woodworker. I don't create beauty, I reveal it.

View Joshua Howe's profile

Joshua Howe

71 posts in 2227 days


#8 posted 02-03-2010 05:59 PM

Sorry guy but I really have to argue the biscuit joint it is a strong joint I understand but for the cost and time it takes, I have a porter cable biscuit jointer dustest tool in my shop. It is much easier to hand cut a loose tenon than it is to find the right angle on a biscuit jointer. And a good chisel is a lot cheaper. if it was my project I wood do the loose tenon but maybe I’m crazy. I know this sounds intemadating to a socalled newbie, But how long do you really want to consider yourself a newbie cut 2 pieces of scrap and just try I promise it will be the most satifing cuts you have ever made. I mean really how much time have we spent think and talking about it. drill 4 or 5 holes in a line chisel waste cut square piece of wood glue and if you want to get fancy pants on it the take bandsaw or handsaw and cut slit add a small wedge on each side make sure that your tenon will flex and not split if splits open up the slit for the wedge all you need the wedge to do is spread it out no more than a 1/16th if tenon is cut tight. wait a minute in case we didn’t already know this this is an old school biscuit hehehee! Don’t you love how machines make us forget the basics. Okay here we go I need something to hold to pieces of wood together so I cut slit in each add wood that continues through joint and wedge to form tight fit like my hammer o yeah wait if we had a machine that cuts the slits and then take a piece of wood o and this wood would expanid when i add glue we will call this type of wedged tenon a biscuit because I got the munches. HEHE! It 6 one way 1/2 dozen the other

-- Wood,clay,metal, and stone are all just materials, until an artist's hand touches them.--TreeFormDesign

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112936 posts in 2330 days


#9 posted 02-03-2010 06:07 PM

I think your photos are to big to see what your trying to do. Can you reduce them down in size?
If it’s the same photo Charlie has then I would use a spline of loose tenon.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View Joshua Howe's profile

Joshua Howe

71 posts in 2227 days


#10 posted 02-03-2010 06:20 PM

just double click the image brings it up in new window and bottom right side of browser is 100% change to 75 or 50% also rich do you think the pocket hole would work if you didn’t use the jig I sometimes do this when I need a steeper angle or even not as much angle. I’m sure the angle has to do with the strength of the joint but I wonder if their is a formula for the degree of angle to strength?

-- Wood,clay,metal, and stone are all just materials, until an artist's hand touches them.--TreeFormDesign

View CharlieM1958's profile

CharlieM1958

15817 posts in 2971 days


#11 posted 02-03-2010 06:21 PM

Jim, click on his photos in the post and you can see them in Photobucket easier.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112936 posts in 2330 days


#12 posted 02-03-2010 06:41 PM

Thanks Guys

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View SplinterDave's profile

SplinterDave

15 posts in 2445 days


#13 posted 02-03-2010 06:57 PM

Jim,

I am not sure if this would work but I might try using splines. Cut a slot in the small block and the angle pieces that join up along a similar line as what is shown in the picture from CharlieM1958. I’m not sure of the sizes of the pieces being joined but let say the block is a 2” square block. If so I’d use 1/4” thick spines about 3/4” deep into each piece. If one surface is exposed the slots would not go all the way through but if there is a top that would cover them I’d make the slot all the way through.

I’m a relatively new wood worker too so take this advise as a consideration and not as something from an expert.

SplinterDave

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112936 posts in 2330 days


#14 posted 02-03-2010 07:10 PM

Hey Dave
Splines seems like a strong easy way to go . The sizes your suggesting seems fine as long as your using a strong wood for the splines. I’m not sure what this is your making but some times I just use a different color wood and let the spline show as a design statement. One concern particularly with the small corner block is it can be very dangerous to saw or router a small block like that. I would suggest that you hold it with a small clamp during this operation and of course making sure the clamp won’t come in contact with the blade or router bit.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1824 days


#15 posted 02-03-2010 09:10 PM

dammit, i forgot to add a couple details about this, im sorry about that.
i was thinking splines lately but im not so sure i can pull off the correct angle very well on the 2 other details i forgot to mention is there will be a glass top inset into the wood and the angled wood u see is not really what you see..lol ill grab some pics for explanation and hopefully yall can un-predicament me..lol
heres a pic of what the angles look like

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

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