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Help Fixing a Circa 1986 Delta 10" Motorized Table Saw Motor

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Forum topic by Lazyman posted 12-08-2015 02:36 AM 1069 views 0 times favorited 18 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Lazyman

695 posts in 852 days


12-08-2015 02:36 AM

Topic tags/keywords: delta motorized bearing repair question tablesaw

I am seeking advice on how to repair the motor of a Delta Motorized table saw (model 34-670 I think) I bought new in about 1986. The problem is that the motor on this saw is a proprietary design and cannot be easily replaced with generic motor and the replacement motor that is available from Delta is probably more that the saw is worth, especially considering the age and Craigs List value of this saw.

The problem began last year when I was getting back into woodworking after a many year hiatus. I used the old saw for several months with no problems. It was extremely loud but it seemed like it has always been pretty loud so I didn’t think anything of it. When I was in the middle of making my Octagon bin project, the bearings “suddenly” hit their limit and the shielding on the front bearing of the motor disintegrated. After trying to fix it for several weeks and at least one specialized tool later I decided I wanted to get back to wood work and bought another cheap saw. I couldn’t bring myself to trash the saw because of a $10 bearing so I pushed it against the wall and piled some other bench tools on it.

After conversation in another thread, I decided that I should try again. I am hoping that someone else has had to fix one of these or has some tips for how to do it without buying many more specialized tools. At a minimum, I want to be able to get what I put into it out of it if I decide to sell it.

So here is the problem. I successfully removed the pulleys at the rear end of the motor but could not get the bearing retaining nuts off to free the shaft from the housing. Here is the nut that stumped me:

At the time, the only tool I could find that looked like it was designed for removing this was over $50. Most were described online as being for removing bearing retainer nuts for specific models of vehicles and more generic ones came in sets of different sizes costing even more so I tried to make one with a pipe and a hacksaw—FAIL. The teeth I cut just bent. This nut seems to be on there really tightly and I was afraid that methods I envisioned that involved a hammer would just make matters worse.

Anyone have any ideas on how to get this dang thing off?
Also, are there any other concerns like having to use even more expensive tools to press the new bearings on after I get it apart? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.


18 replies so far

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bigblockyeti

3668 posts in 1185 days


#1 posted 12-08-2015 02:43 AM

Do you have a model number? Being able to look at an exploded diagram could be helpful in figuring your options.

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MrUnix

4226 posts in 1663 days


#2 posted 12-08-2015 02:51 AM

Yup, model number would help. Also, I doubt seriously that you just remove a retainer and the shaft comes out… that is most likely the end of the armature (can’t really tell from the picture what end is being looked at though). You need to open the motor, which starts by removing it from the saw, and then opening it up to gain access. With a parts diagram, you should be able to determine how to remove it.

Also, most bearing retainer nuts can be removed with a special tool, but you usually don’t really need one. There are many ways to get them out, from using a drift punch to tap them in the right direction, to fabricating a simple ‘spanner’ out of metal (or a really big screwdriver for the smaller ones).

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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Lazyman

695 posts in 852 days


#3 posted 12-08-2015 02:52 AM

Whoops, I forgot to put that in the description ( I just edited) I think that the model number is 34-670. There are several iterations of this saw that have different bases and other features but they all appear to share the same motor in their schematics. The end in the picture is the the one with the plastic shroud covering the belt and pulleys.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Lazyman

695 posts in 852 days


#4 posted 12-08-2015 03:16 AM

Looking at the schematic again after over a year, I just realized that this is actually the arbor not the motor or armature shaft. I am realizing that I probably should have taken another look at the motor since it has been over a year but it appears to me that the nut and the toothed washer behind it are what are holding the bearings in and the arbor in place though it still might require taking the 2 halves of the motor housing apart to get the arbor out. My assumption was that If I could get this retention nut off, I could pull the arbor out from the other end which where the failed bearing is. The blade end of the arbor has the flange on it.

Note that while was at it I had hoped to replace all of the bearings so it will probably require complete disassembly but if that proves to be way more difficult because of the motor design, I won’t worry about it.

I tried using a screw driver (I don’t have a drift punch) to wack this loose but was afraid to wack it too hard because it could create some play in the arbor if I damage it somehow. I also tried to make a spanner out of a pipe with 4 teeth cut into the end it but the teeth bent. I may have to try that again with some stronger pipe.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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MrUnix

4226 posts in 1663 days


#5 posted 12-08-2015 03:46 AM

Dude.. easy peasy :)

That is a brush type motor, which is why you noticed it being loud. You will need to yank the motor first and open it up. Shouldn’t be too difficult to figure out how to get it off, and it looks like there is only 2 or 4 screws holding the housing in place (hard to tell from the diagram). Take the brushes out first, remove the screws and pull it apart. Good time to check the condition of the brushes as well. The e-replacements site has a pretty good diagram of the motor:

The bearings should be pretty standard off the shelf variety… #201 in the diagram appears to be a typical 6004. I can’t find the actual bearing number for #222, but it should be a standard variety as well – you will just have to look at the number stamped on the side when you get to it. The diagram doesn’t really show it, but it appears there is a bearing on one end of the armature and sold as part of the armature, and possibly a bushing in the housing on the other end. Not a biggie… same deal, open it up and just read the numbers off the side. It also is a good idea to measure the bore, O.D. and width with some callipers once removed just to double check. Also, don’t get your bearings from an aftermarket supplier (like e-replacements), get them from a reputable bearing supplier like Accurate... you will get better quality bearings for much, much less. I’ve seen aftermarket guys selling supposed “OEM” bearings for 10-15 times what you can get them anywhere else. And very important – don’t order or purchase any until you open up the motor and verify what is there – part diagrams have been known to be wrong from time to time!

Be sure to take pictures all along the way… they are invaluable for remembering how things go back together should you forget or can’t tell from the diagram. The bearings can be pulled a bunch of different ways depending on what you have on hand. An easy way is to just support the bearing outer race in a bench vice, letting the shaft hang free, and tapping the shaft through the bearing (make sure something soft is under it to catch the shaft when it comes off). Of course, a 3 jaw puller makes it easier if you have one (or want to get one – they are pretty inexpensive over at HF). For getting them back on, a suitable socket or pipe can be used to tap the inner race with a soft blow hammer or piece of wood and regular hammer onto the shaft. With pictures, you can ask questions if you get stuck. It really sounds like a lot more than it really is.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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MrUnix

4226 posts in 1663 days


#6 posted 12-08-2015 03:49 AM


I tried using a screw driver (I don t have a drift punch) to wack this loose but was afraid to wack it too hard because it could create some play in the arbor if I damage it somehow. I also tried to make a spanner out of a pipe with 4 teeth cut into the end it but the teeth bent. I may have to try that again with some stronger pipe.

Don’t make it harder than it needs to be :)

You wouldn’t be able to get that bearing out with the shaft still there, even if you could get the retaining nut off… but once the shaft is out, it should be easy to get the nut off and then use a punch or wooden dowel to tap it out from the other side.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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MrUnix

4226 posts in 1663 days


#7 posted 12-08-2015 06:26 AM

Just a quick note – after looking at the diagram again, there is in fact two bearings on the armature… #217 and #218. #218 and #222 are the same size, so there are a total of 4 bearings, 3 different sizes. Once you get things opened up, you should go ahead and replace all – if one failed, then the others shouldn’t be too far behind.

Also, I got to thinking about it, and couldn’t see how that arbor shaft is held in place.. but then it dawned on me – it looks like that nut you have been trying to remove (#224) is threaded to the shaft, not the housing like I originally thought (and is more typical). The keyed lock washer was the hint. Spin the arbor flange and see if it rotates along with it.. I’m betting it does. If so, the lock washer behind it (#223) is keyed to the arbor shaft, and should have one or more of it’s fingers bent up to lock the nut in position and keep it from unscrewing. Should be as simple as bending down the fingers to free the nut, holding the nut tight, and turning the arbor flange to back the nut off (or holding the arbor flange and turning the nut… your pick!). Once you get it off, you should be able to tap the arbor shaft out. And since the bearing on that side has a pre-load spring washer behind it (#221), it should just be a slip fit in the housing and pop out pretty easily. Once you get the shaft out, it should be pretty trivial to pull the housing to get to the armature bearings.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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Lazyman

695 posts in 852 days


#8 posted 12-08-2015 02:36 PM

Thanks. If memory serves, I think you are correct that the nut and washer are threaded and keyed to the arbor shaft. There is definitely a key slot in the shaft but I don’t remember seeing any teeth on the washer bent up to lock it. I’ve always assumed it was more of a jam nut approach where they tightened the nut against the washer to lock it in place but I could be wrong. Or perhaps the teeth on the washer are all just slightly bent up to act sort of like a spring so that even pressure is applied against the bearing as it is tightened against it. One concern that I have is that this bearing is something unique or unusual because of the way this shaft is attached and locked down. When I looked last night at a couple of the online tool parts web sites, neither one of them have this bearing available. I already bought the replacement for the one that failed last year. It was a very common bearing.

It may take me a few days to get back to that and look. I’ve got some Christmas presents I need to finish in the shop before I try to crack open the old motor again. I’ll respond after that. Thanks for you help.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Lazyman

695 posts in 852 days


#9 posted 12-08-2015 03:06 PM

I found another picture on my phone that I took last year when I hit the wall that might provide a better perspective for seeing how the nut and washer sit on the shaft. It does look a little bit like teeth are angled up to jam/lock against the nut so that the pressure is against the center of the bearing. You might have to zoom in to see better what I mean. I think that I am going to have to try again to make a toothed spanner from a pipe to loosen the nut. I really don’t see any other way to get enough torque on this nut to remove it. A hook spanner may be the other tool that is used for this but they are crazy expensive on Amazon. Maybe I can make one out of wood with a metal pin?

Here are couple more pictures that shows the setup of the motor in general.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Rick M

7921 posts in 1844 days


#10 posted 12-08-2015 03:44 PM

I think you would be super lucky to get $150 for this saw in tip top condition, more likely is $50-75. Universal motor saws are not very desirable on the second hand market. It’s market value is probably close to it’s scrap value. You may want to think long and hard about whether it’s really worth putting time and money into it. I know you’ve owned it a long time and it no doubt has sentimental value but at this point it doesn’t owe you anything and time/money would be better spent on a better quality saw.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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Lazyman

695 posts in 852 days


#11 posted 12-08-2015 04:29 PM



I think you would be super lucky to get $150 for this saw in tip top condition, more likely is $50-75. Universal motor saws are not very desirable on the second hand market. It s market value is probably close to it s scrap value. You may want to think long and hard about whether it s really worth putting time and money into it. I know you ve owned it a long time and it no doubt has sentimental value but at this point it doesn t owe you anything and time/money would be better spent on a better quality saw.

- Rick M.

I absolutely agree. That’s why I stopped before and just bought a new saw. The bearings are relatively cheap but the extra tools that probably won’t have much other use in my shop were going to push me over the limit. I’m not really too emotionally attached, just didn’t want to trash the entire saw because I couldn’t get to a $10 part. In the meantime, I’ve used it as a workbench for my cheap scroll saw so even if I can’t make it usable or even sellable, it will just keep functioning as a work surface…a really heavy work surface.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Rick M

7921 posts in 1844 days


#12 posted 12-08-2015 05:11 PM

I’ve always wanted to turn one into a router table; strip the guts and fab a router mount.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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MrUnix

4226 posts in 1663 days


#13 posted 12-08-2015 05:46 PM

I’d try just pushing down on those lock washer fingers, use a small screw driver or something. Then put some penetrating oil on it, figure out a way to wedge the nut (block of wood or two maybe), and turn the shaft from the other end (arbor flange) to loosen. You could mount a blade to get a little extra torque if needed. If you have an old cheap blade, you could give it a few whacks with a hammer and piece of wood, similar to the action of an impact driver. There is no reason you should have to get any special tools, and it should come off without much fuss.

And those bearings are standard items. Delta doesn’t make bearings, they buy them from bearing manufacturers. The problem is that they usually give them some odd-ball part number and don’t tell you the real number, so most people think you have to get them from Delta (or an aftermarket supplier) and pay significantly more than what they really cost. I was able to find out that #201, which is Delta part number 1313116 for that bearing, is really nothing more than a standard 6004-2RS bearing, and you can get them at any bearing shop for about $2 (and e-replacementparts wants $28.34 for it!!!!). The other bearings will be similar.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: While I agree with RIck about saws with universal motors being less desirable, those usually have plastic housings that will quickly melt if pushed too hard, and are pseudo-direct drive designs. That Delta isn’t really the same. While it uses a brush type motor, it has a real metal housing and the arbor shaft is de-coupled from the motor using a belt. A very different design from what you would find on the more common portable saws, and much more robust.

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

695 posts in 852 days


#14 posted 12-08-2015 10:47 PM



I d try just pushing down on those lock washer fingers, use a small screw driver or something. Then put some penetrating oil on it, figure out a way to wedge the nut (block of wood or two maybe), and turn the shaft from the other end (arbor flange) to loosen. You could mount a blade to get a little extra torque if needed. If you have an old cheap blade, you could give it a few whacks with a hammer and piece of wood, similar to the action of an impact driver. There is no reason you should have to get any special tools, and it should come off without much fuss.

And those bearings are standard items. Delta doesn t make bearings, they buy them from bearing manufacturers. The problem is that they usually give them some odd-ball part number and don t tell you the real number, so most people think you have to get them from Delta (or an aftermarket supplier) and pay significantly more than what they really cost. I was able to find out that #201, which is Delta part number 1313116 for that bearing, is really nothing more than a standard 6004-2RS bearing, and you can get them at any bearing shop for about $2 (and e-replacementparts wants $28.34 for it!!!!). The other bearings will be similar.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: While I agree with RIck about saws with universal motors being less desirable, those usually have plastic housings that will quickly melt if pushed too hard, and are pseudo-direct drive designs. That Delta isn t really the same. While it uses a brush type motor, it has a real metal housing and the arbor shaft is de-coupled from the motor using a belt. A very different design from what you would find on the more common portable saws, and much more robust.

- MrUnix

I’ll give that try and get back to you once my other projects are done.

Good point about this motor compared to other universal motors. Even if it turns out that this not really a US made tool, it was still made in another time. I have to say that I have pushed this thing pretty hard over the years. I have resawed nearly 5” wide boards, some of them 20 year old red oak, many times and while it strains a bit when resawing at maximum depth it never faltered until the bearing failed while ripping 1/2” plywood. Assuming that I can get it back together without introducing other problems on the arbor, it would make a great beginner saw for someone or I could even use it for when I have multiple setups or blades and don’t want to change back and forth.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View JoeinGa's profile

JoeinGa

7482 posts in 1471 days


#15 posted 12-09-2015 12:20 AM

If you’re tapping a screwdriver with a hammer trying to loosen the nut … make sure it isn’t left hand threads.

-- Perform A Random Act Of Kindness Today ... Pay It Forward

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