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Forum topic by Jackietreehorn posted 10-11-2015 02:47 PM 892 views 0 times favorited 17 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Jackietreehorn

150 posts in 1400 days


10-11-2015 02:47 PM

Topic tags/keywords: milling

I’m a newbie when I comes to milling and was wondering if movement on wood comes more from ripping (I’m assuming) than crosscut? I’m milling 4/4 down currently and I started with 6” boards, jointed and then sawed in half, crosscut to approximate length leaving leftover and then stickered them for a good month due to busy schedule.

I then went through and rejointed any that had moved a bunch etc. I still needed to rip 1/4-1/2” off to final size and am wondering if I should cut close to final and then sticker for a couple days? Not sure that last 1/4-1/2” will make it want to change. I also left some pieces in a longer form, ie two 10” pieces in one long stick for planing and plan on cross cutting to length after. Then I got to thinking maybe that will make it go all crazy on me.
So basically, does wood move more on rip than it does on crosscut?

And last milling question, using a glue line rip blade, there’s still slight saw marks and it is opposite the jointed face. I planned to put the saw mark side face against router fence (after a quick light sand)since the shaker bit will be cutting off most of the marks. Is this correct thinking, or should I get close to final width on saw and joint off the last bit? Seems like a bigger risk running back through jointer if I get tear out or something. Wish I had edge sander…
Thanks in advance!

-- www.nobleprojects.blogspot.com


17 replies so far

View ForestGrl's profile

ForestGrl

445 posts in 548 days


#1 posted 10-12-2015 02:48 AM

What moisture content did the lumber start out at? If this is green lumber that you milled from a log, it will take longer to “cure” than you might think. Wood shrinks differently along different planes: there’s radial, tangential and longitudinal shrinkage, which you allude to in your question.. There is a great deal of info on the internet about this, and if you’re into milling from the tree, studying it will save you tons of time and prevent agonizing mistakes. Here’s a rudimentary start at Popular Woodworking. Click on (expand) the drawing you see on the first page, it will illustrate different cuts and how the wood moves. In that drawing, you’ll also see cuts you want to stay away from (whether you’re making them, or picking out stock at the lumberyard).

Not sure about your ripping question at the end. On a properly tuned-up saw, a glue-line rip blade should leave a glue-ready surface on both pieces. Generally, when needing several boards of the same width, I’d just set the fence at the needed distance, and rip the edge-jointed and planed stock to get my nicely matched boards.

-- My mother said that anyone learning to cook needed a large dog to eat the mistakes. As a sculptor of wood I have always tried to keep a fireplace. (Norman Ridenour)

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Jackietreehorn

150 posts in 1400 days


#2 posted 10-12-2015 03:34 AM

I’ll have to read up on that article, thanks. The wood was dry from a wholesaler. I’m more paranoid that it’ll move even though I’m following the methods I’ve read about.
As for the glue line rip, it’s pretty nice, I’d have no problem gluing the edges cause they’re real nice. But in the right light you can see the saw marks. I’m sure the shaker bit will alleviate that, and of course sanding.

-- www.nobleprojects.blogspot.com

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ForestGrl

445 posts in 548 days


#3 posted 10-12-2015 05:19 AM


I ll have to read up on that article, thanks. The wood was dry from a wholesaler. I m more paranoid that it ll move even though I m following the methods I ve read about.
As for the glue line rip, it s pretty nice, I d have no problem gluing the edges cause they re real nice. But in the right light you can see the saw marks. I m sure the shaker bit will alleviate that, and of course sanding.

- Jackietreehorn

Keeping in mind that I’m a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic when talking to any sales person….”dry” could mean lots of things. It could mean 8% or it could mean not-as-wet-as-green (yes, cynical—hah, hah I warned ya), or anything inbetween. Using a moisture meter is the only way you’d know for sure. I feel some concern that you’ll kinda over-mill this lumber, end up with something thinner, or narrower or shorter than what you need, then you’d have to go out and buy a wood-stretcher, and they are really expensive. :-)

Out of curiosity, what are you making with said wood? What kind of wood is it? Milling dry wood to specs shouldn’t take a bunch of router touching-up and sanding, but it’s OK if you want to do it and you can get the precision you need to not waste lumber. To the point, though—if the lumber moisture is in the lower percentages (say 8%-12%) and it was dried properly, movement shouldn’t be a significant problem. You mentioned that you re-jointed wood “that had moved a bunch.” In what way did it move (twist? cup?) and how much?

I live in the Great Northwest, and our humidity is very high, so I rely on a moisture meter if I’m picking out lumber for a project. Then, in the winter, I have to keep the pellet stove running daily to keep the RH of the shop in a reasonable range. Unheated, it easily gets to 70%, drastically higher than the house that the project might live in.

-- My mother said that anyone learning to cook needed a large dog to eat the mistakes. As a sculptor of wood I have always tried to keep a fireplace. (Norman Ridenour)

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groyuti

45 posts in 419 days


#4 posted 10-12-2015 02:51 PM

-- Spammer in the process of being removed.

View toddbeaulieu's profile

toddbeaulieu

781 posts in 2466 days


#5 posted 10-13-2015 07:35 PM

I don’t believe cross cutting would affect your lumber like that. You can absolutely joint a board and then rip it immediately, and stare in disbelief at the crook right off the saw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_warping

One factor is that wood has tension and when you rip it, the board can move from changes in the tension caused by the new balance. I usually try to join, rip wide, re-joint and re-rip, depending on what I see happen, how critical it is and how much material I have to work with. It’s often smart to joint the board, rip it wide and let it sit. Freshly exposed surface will start to lose moisture and the wood can move. Come back to it after a while and get it closer or to final dimensions. Same (even more so) goes for planing. And always try to mill opposing surfaces uniformly.

You shouldn’t have saw marks if the saw is set up correctly, the blade is sharp, you’re feeding it at a good speed and you have support under the material (zero clearance insert). My ZC is trashed at this point and I’ve been too lazy/cheap to replace it.

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CB_Cohick

460 posts in 713 days


#6 posted 10-13-2015 08:24 PM

I think wood movement has more to do with grain direction than how a milled piece of lumber is cut. Quartersawn lumber, where the growth rings are parallel to the short axis of a board (ie, the “2” axis of a 2×4) when looking at the end grain, is valued for its relative dimensional stability and consistent grain. This is as opposed to flatsawn lumber, where the grain can be quite inconsistent and much more subject to movement.

-- Chris - Would work, but I'm too busy reading about woodwork.

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bondogaposis

4024 posts in 1813 days


#7 posted 10-13-2015 09:17 PM

There are three planes of reference in wood. Start w/ the log, all boards come from logs. The three planes in a log are longitudinal, tangential and radial. You can forget longitudinal because wood does not move in the longitudinal direction with one exception and that is juvenile wood. Tangential movement is approximately twice that of radial movement. That why quarter sawn wood is highly valued because it is more stable.

To more directly answer your question, when you cross cut the board will not change in length because wood does not move in that plane even if it is green. But take a board that is dry on the outside but maybe has some moisture on the inside and rip it open. Then yes it will move because now you’ve exposed the interior and it will move as it dries in accordance to whether the board is primarily a tangential board (plain sawn) or radial board (quarter sawn).

-- Bondo Gaposis

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Logan Windram

303 posts in 1923 days


#8 posted 10-13-2015 11:21 PM

Ripping, you exposing unexposed wood along the board, but it will be negligible.

Resawing 12/4 across a width is a different story, a lot of new wood surface exposed.

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Rick M

7910 posts in 1842 days


#9 posted 10-13-2015 11:33 PM

Methods for milling lumber were developed over centuries, trust the process.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View ForestGrl's profile

ForestGrl

445 posts in 548 days


#10 posted 10-14-2015 12:27 AM



I think wood movement has more to do with grain direction than how a milled piece of lumber is cut. Quartersawn lumber, where the growth rings are parallel to the short axis of a board (ie, the “2” axis of a 2×4) when looking at the end grain, is valued for its relative dimensional stability and consistent grain. This is as opposed to flatsawn lumber, where the grain can be quite inconsistent and much more subject to movement.

- CB_Cohick

Amen

-- My mother said that anyone learning to cook needed a large dog to eat the mistakes. As a sculptor of wood I have always tried to keep a fireplace. (Norman Ridenour)

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2190 posts in 942 days


#11 posted 10-14-2015 12:10 PM

Yes, ripping causes more movement, as you’ve experienced.
When you rip a board down the center, you are exposing the middle of the board which has more moisture than the edges (usually). Therefore, after cutting the board will bend, sometimes even right off the saw (hence the need for a spitter). Usually after adapting for a few days or a week, the warp will be less.

Movement after ripping is caused by one of two things: moisture or internal stresses, or both (not related to grain but how the tree grew). You have to keep sneaking up on it like you’re doing and realize you will run into some boards that are just not going to work. An option is to use them for shorter pieces if possible.

The solution is keep the boards as wide as possible as long as possible. For 2 1/4” rails/stiles my first rip cut will be 3” wide.

You are correct in sneaking up on the final dims and stickering each time you mill.
This is the one aspect of prepping it took me a while to learn but not fighing or worrying about the wood has made my project experience much better. That, plus always prepping more stock than I need for those mistakes or errant boards that won’t behave.

I would just clean up the edges with a hand plane. Simple.

Beyond that, don’t rely on a glue line edge right off the saw, in spite of what the blade says.
I always do my final glue edge prep with a hand jointer plane, but that’s me.
Even with a power jointer, I usually do a final clean up the edge with handplane.
Never use a sander to prep an edge for gluing (how do I know that?)

Good luck sounds like you’ve got a pretty good understanding of wood prep.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Jackietreehorn's profile

Jackietreehorn

150 posts in 1400 days


#12 posted 10-14-2015 07:28 PM


I ll have to read up on that article, thanks. The wood was dry from a wholesaler. I m more paranoid that it ll move even though I m following the methods I ve read about.
As for the glue line rip, it s pretty nice, I d have no problem gluing the edges cause they re real nice. But in the right light you can see the saw marks. I m sure the shaker bit will alleviate that, and of course sanding.

- Jackietreehorn

Keeping in mind that I m a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic when talking to any sales person….”dry” could mean lots of things. It could mean 8% or it could mean not-as-wet-as-green (yes, cynical—hah, hah I warned ya), or anything inbetween. Using a moisture meter is the only way you d know for sure. I feel some concern that you ll kinda over-mill this lumber, end up with something thinner, or narrower or shorter than what you need, then you d have to go out and buy a wood-stretcher, and they are really expensive. :-)

Out of curiosity, what are you making with said wood? What kind of wood is it? Milling dry wood to specs shouldn t take a bunch of router touching-up and sanding, but it s OK if you want to do it and you can get the precision you need to not waste lumber. To the point, though—if the lumber moisture is in the lower percentages (say 8%-12%) and it was dried properly, movement shouldn t be a significant problem. You mentioned that you re-jointed wood “that had moved a bunch.” In what way did it move (twist? cup?) and how much?

I live in the Great Northwest, and our humidity is very high, so I rely on a moisture meter if I m picking out lumber for a project. Then, in the winter, I have to keep the pellet stove running daily to keep the RH of the shop in a reasonable range. Unheated, it easily gets to 70%, drastically higher than the house that the project might live in.

- ForestGrl

Im doing rail and stiles for cabinet doors using Maple. I jointed the face and one edge as quickly as I could and then cut the 6” boards down to 2.75-3” depending on how wide the board was. I then stickered it for qite some time, at least a month. I then went through and jointed the faces flat and one edge. I need to rip off the last little bit to get down to my 2&1/4 size. So I thought for safety’s sake I’d rip them at 2 & 1/2 and then let them sit for the week since I get weekends to work on them. This way I still have a little wiggle room if something moves a bit.

Even from the first rough jointing and after I ripped them in half, they haven’t moved a whole lot, I was just wondering if my approach of shaving off a 1/4” and coming back to it a week later is a waste of time or a standard precaution. From what rwe2156 wrote, probably a decent approach given the only time constraint is an impatient wife :)

On a side note, I suppose cross cutting a real wet piece could cause checking at the ends when it dries??

Thanks for all the replies, learning as I go…

-- www.nobleprojects.blogspot.com

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toddbeaulieu

781 posts in 2466 days


#13 posted 10-14-2015 07:33 PM

“On a side note, I suppose cross cutting a real wet piece could cause checking at the ends when it dries??”

If you’re working with wood that wet you’ll have bigger issues than checking. Seriously.

Ripping to a larger width, letting them sit and then ripping close and finally jointing is never a waste of time. It might feel like a slow painful process, but it works. Can you shortcut that? Sure you can. Most of the time. You can’t always predict what the wood will do as it’s milled. Like I said before, tension in the material can cause it to IMMEDIATELY crook upon ripping. I’ve seen it MANY times. That’s not a matter of freshly exposed material drying in 16 seconds. It’s tension.

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rwe2156

2190 posts in 942 days


#14 posted 10-14-2015 09:44 PM

Jackietree – you are spot on with your approach.

Very good, only question I would have is when you go from say 2 3/4 to 2 1/2 are you taking 1/8 off each side?

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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toddbeaulieu

781 posts in 2466 days


#15 posted 10-14-2015 09:46 PM

And I’d say it doesn’t matter for tension. Only for moisture.

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