$500 Shop Upgrade !!! PLEASE HELP !!!

Hi Outputter,
I feel that you are going to get this response the most. (table Saw, Table Sax, Table Saw)
It’s the one tool that I would not like working without. I have a Delta contractor’s saw and I am very happy with it. The price range should be in line with what you plan to spend.
I hope this helps.

-- Gene, a Christian in Virginia

I think the table saw will take most, if not all, of your budget. So, get the best you can afford.

Do you do your dovetail joints by hand? You might consider a dovetail jig, especially if you are going to be building lots of boxes. With the jig, you may want to get a new router as well (plunge and fix base). Both could be a labor saver, as well as time saver and consistent results.

Do you have a market already for your boxes? Do not forget your materials and supplies you will need. The $500 will buy you a lot of materials to start with. You might want to start your venture with a few basic items, and then add the tools as you identify your needs. If you are doing this as a business, you will go about it one way. If it is a hobby, then you will probably go about this differently.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

Your 12” Irwin clamps are too short to clamp a 12” box…buy the longest ones you can as they will come in handy for other stuff too.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

I agree with Bill’s comment about business vs. hobby. If it’s just a hobby and all you are building are small boxes then you may be able to get more for your money if you just buy a bench top table saw. Then you could afford some more clamps, a dovetail jig, a mult-base router, or whatever you feel will be most useful to you. There are a thousand ways to spend $500 on tools. It’ll be up to you to decide what you ultimately need (or want).

-- JP, Shelbyville, KY

I think that most small shops should be built around a tablesaw. You can build them around a bandsaw if you’re proficient at using hand tools. The bandsaw would allow for gross dimensioning and resawing, allowing you to finish the rest on the bench. It’s a neat way to go if that’s what trips your trigger.

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Dare I say a few handplanes…. #7, #4 and a low angle block plane. Your going to need to mill your stock. Jointer and Planer would break the budget

You can handcut the dovetails or use a PC router jig. May need a good handsaw if your hand cutting.

Agree on the bench top table saw – if I was working with $500, I would start with http://craigslist.org

Also, I would check yard sales or flea markets for a couple of pipe clamps for gluing up your panels or drop the $20 or so (including pipe) for them at a big box store.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Hmmm, boxes, eh? Given your current tool list and budget, I think I would take a peek at the Incra Universal Precision Positioning Jig, or one of it’s bigger brothers. This system quickly creates nice accurate dovetals and you would have $400.00 left over to put toward building the router table you will want. Here is a link to the tool I am yakking about: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11494&filter=incra This is also a link to a video showing the tool in action.

All,

Thanks for the help. I’ve heard the argument that the table saw is the center piece of the shop. But, what if I can rip with my circular saw and cross cut with the miter saw? Do I still need a table saw to build a box? I’m pretty sure I’ll have to buy better clamps too Dadoo. I read an article about the amount of clamping pressure needed for a good glue up and the type I have can’t generate the amount of pressure needed.

I’m going to be giving the boxes to family so I just need to get them done while respecting my priorities of safety, durability of the boxes, impact on the cost of the boxes, impact on labor required for each box, and anything else I don’t know enough to think of.

I’m working on my prototype box now and doing the dovetails by hand so, I can do them all by hand if the money can be better spent on something else. But what is the best way?

What a dilema? I guess another way to ask the question is “If you couldn’t have anything but my equipment and $500, how would you spend the money so you could make nothing but boxes?”

Thanks again,

-- Jim

It seems to me for a 10×12x3 exterior dimension box you would perhaps be using stock that’s less than 3/4” thick? Otherwise, there’s only 1.5” interior space?

Therefore, I would suggest a thickness planer be in the mix.

-- Paul, Texas

I bought my son-in-law the Dewalt 10 in. compact table saw. http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/Treefarmer/blog/1564 I like it so much that it’s on my list for my next purchase. I spent $340 or so at Home Depot.

I like it for the rack n pinion sliding fence, and it’s great portability. It cut’s like a big saw too with some outfeed support added. It would be great for boxes.

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

Limited to $500. If I was building for my enjoyment and as presents family and friends. I would probably go the hand tool route. Show off my craftsmanship in the work.

• Good dovetail saw
• Couple of good used handsaws
• Jewler’s saw
• Handrill (north brothers)
  

• Set of handplanes
  
  
  • Sandpaper and float glass to sharpen
  • #4 Smoothing Plane – For finishing work (Bench planes would be Stanley type 11 restored)
  • #5 Jack Plane – Set up as a scrub plane
  • #7 or #8 Jointer Plane – To flaten stock
  • Record 043 or 044 Plough Plane – To groove for bottom panels and such (http://uk.ebay.com)
  • 60 1/2 or 65 Low Angle block plane

• Cabinet scrapers, mill file, and burnisher
• Pipe clamps for panels
• Combination and machinest’s squares
• Marking knife
• Some form of portable workbench

• Bench hook
• Shooting board
• Planing stop

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Yup, with wayne’s example, then I go back to the bandsaw to allow for resawing. You can rip with your circular saw, cross cut with the mitre saw, resaw with the bandsaw, then dimension with the hand tools. Then you’re covered. Just an option.

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

I agree Bandsaw would be a good choice given your existing tools…. You would get some increased flexability.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Don’t forget glue, sandpaper, finishing supplies, safety glasses…..... The list just keeps growing. ;)

-- JP, Shelbyville, KY

I have been setting up to make smaller boxes as well. I agree with Wayne on his suggestion to pick up hand planes. I have been picking up planes for a few bucks at different sales and having a good deal of fun with them.

I would also look at picking up a used table saw. Without a bandsaw you can set up a table saw to resaw. Picking up a used table saw will also stretch that 500.

The last must have for me would be a good table saw blade. This is the only thing I would buy new.

Good Luck.

Also, you might check with any vocational schools around your area. They normally update their tools every couple of years and sell off the used ones. Some will let you know when they are going to change out and notify you.
Good Luck,

-- Gene, a Christian in Virginia

Make a list of anything you want. Having a list puts your dreams into solid form. Yes, make a note of that table saw…check the want ads. I just scored a large set of braces of bits at a garage sale. $10. They’ll need some restoration work…covered in light rust….but once cleaned up…I’ll have a great set I didn’t have before. And there are things one can do with brace and bits one can’t with a stationary drill…or sometimes even powered hand drill. I just missed a 14 inch bandsaw at the same garage sale. Dirt cheap and in good condition, but I already had one. Some woodworkers only use a bandsaw and are happy with the results. I like WayneC’s suggestions. Auctions are another great source of tools. Given $500.00 doesn’t grow on trees…a good used table saw might run $75 to $250 advertised in the newspaper…depending on the brand, etc. The new items I bought were carefully selected…but alot of my tools are used. And some important tools can be crafted. A great book called Acres of Diamonds describes how a man searched for riches beyond his own little farm only to discover that his farm was literally a diamond mine. Sending out feelers among friends and acquaintances can often provide directions. I got a call on some tree trunks last night. 60 acres of hardwood trees. Mostly ash and oak. I’m chomping at the bit. That came from a feeler I put out to someone.

-- /\/\/\ BarryW /\/\/\ Stay so busy you don't have time to die.

Paul, yes I guess the 3” is the interior dimension so the out dimension should be about 5”. I’m also figuring out that unless you want to hand cut dovetails, the limit for thickness of your stock is 7/8” or so. So, I may have to revise those dimensions.

Thanks,

-- Jim

gbvinc – I liked the idea of a router table jig so much that I spent all day researching Incra and their jigs. The best I can tell is that by the time I get the jig, the bits, a new router, make a table, etc. I’m going to be out of money. I will have a residual lust for a $1000 Incra set up now for quite a while I can already tell.

Bob – That is one nice looking DeWalt contractor’s saw. I guess I’m struggling with how to make a box by just adding a table saw. I can buy stock in any length or width since I can cut and rip with the saw. How do I get it to a uniform thickness because I may not have enough money to get a thickness planer too? Uniform thickness is required for all the joints to match up in a small box right?

WayneC – If I invest in all the hand tools, I may face a pretty long learning curve (one I would probably enjoy but, a long one nevertheless). You may have suggested the right addition to a table saw for me though in a hand plane and some kind of workbench to use with it. That would take care of the thickness problem wouldn’t it? What kind of planes would I need to get a “good enough” uniform thickness by rookie hand?

Tom(mot) – I like the idea of a band saw too because if all I need after that is a way to control thickness, I may be able to get a band saw for $150 and a planer for $350?

Thanks again ya’ll. I’m getting some good ideas. I think I’ll try to come up with several options for how I would work the wood given different combinations of tools next and see what you think.

-- Jim

I think 3 planes to handle the thicknessing Stanley #4 (Smooting), #5 (Rough work) , and a #7 making the boards straight. If you look around you could find them in the $10 to $40 range (each). You would then need learn to sharpen and tune them. Lots of info about how to do this on the internet.

If your milling stock with power tools you normally need 3 tools. Jointer to flatten one face, Jointer to square an edge to the flat face, planer to make the board the correct thickness and parallel, and table saw to make unjointed edge the correct width and parallel to the jointed edge…

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

By far the most important tool in my shop is my table saw. It is a 53 year old Craftsman 10 inch. My Dad bought it for me the day I was born. I guess my Mom was preoccupied. Anyway, he remodeled two homes with it, as did I. I started using it when I was about 10, and took it with me when I left. So the moral of the story is, if you need a new tool ‘buy it for the children’.

Anyway, a table saw it a must for me. Have you tried Craigslist? You can use it to make any router table or jig instead of buying one. You can use a router to joint and thickness. It is somewhat slow going, but is accurate and with boxes, you won’t have a huge number of board feet. Add a sander and you could build a blizzard of boxes.

Steve

-- Stevethepeeve -- I'm no rocket surgeon

Jim,

As most everyone says, it’s a table saw. You are not too far from me, and I happen to have my Delta contractors saw for sale. I recently upgraded to a Unisaw.

Look at my projects and you can get an idea what I have built with it. It has the addes bonus of having
a Jessem MasteR-lift router lift already built into the table extension.

It’s like getting two tools in one. Plus I’ll throw in a Delta Dado blade set that is like new. The saw already comes with a thin kerf freud saw blade, and a dust chute on the bottom.

Can’t beat the deal for $500, and you’re only a couple hours away.

Let me know if you are interested and I’ll send you some pictures.

Gary

PS – As far as clamps for boxed go a piece of small rope and a piece of wood for a tourniquet style clamp goes a long way in gluing up boxes, plus it has the added advantage of just using more rope for bigger boxes.

-- Gary - Never pass up the opportunity to make a mistake look like you planned it that way & "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit" -Aristotle

Jump on that deal man…quick before Gary sobers up!

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

GaryK – Thanks for the offer. I’d love to see the pictures. Even though you’re only a couple of hours away I’m in another universe right now. I broke my leg five weeks ago and I’m still confined to not putting any weight on it (read that as “flat on my back 24/7”). Even this has a bright side to it because it gives me plenty of time to do research like this. BTW I grew up in Tyler which is even closer to you.

I’m still trying to figure out how to do the processing of the rough stock if I can only add the table saw. I can use the table saw to rip the stock to width. How do I get the stock face planed and flatten it on the opposite face parallel and at right angles to the ripped side? How do I cut the fourth side without the two faces being parallel? I understand that with furniture you can use hand planes to flatten a board face pretty close but, when you mean to connect four corners in small deminsions, you need to be almost perfect to get a fit that will last for generations. Now, that’s not to say that some of you guys like WayneC couldn’t do it even better with a hand plane, just that I can’t. I hope to some day, but not real soon.

I was looking at the Sears prices for Craftsman equipment this afternoon and found a planer for about $275. I don’t think a planer for that price is going to be the best in the world but, it may be enough for a bunch of small boxes. If I got the planer and picked up some hand planes maybe I could do it like this. Cut the rough stock to length with the circular saw. Plane it to thickness and parallel on two sides. Use a jig to cut the sides at right angles with the circular saw. Use another jig to rip it to final width with the circular saw. Use the miter saw to cut the final length. Hand cut the dovetails. Use the hand planes to clean up the sides for gluing.

I hear what ya’ll are saying about the table saw. I just have a very limited list of stuff to produce right now. Just boxes and maybe some jigs. So, I’m leaning away from the table saw until I can figure out how to make the boards flat, right, and parallel if I can’t get at least a planer.

Thanks again folks. This is really helping me to put this all together. I’ll keep you updated on the research.

-- Jim

The cheapest and easiest solution is to not buy rough lumber.

That will save you from needing a planer and jointer, or all the hand planes.

Get better,
Gary

-- Gary - Never pass up the opportunity to make a mistake look like you planned it that way & "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit" -Aristotle

Yes, that would get me into the ballpark but two things happen when I do it that way. The first is that the borg don’t sell square, flat, lumber and I don’t know where I can get really square flat lumber. Is it possible that the S4S stuff is really square and flat and I just haven’t gotten lucky yet? Anyway, the second is that the cost starts to go up pretty fast. I need to make the boxes but if I end up with a jointer or table saw or something of value after I’m done, well, that’s better than just ending up with nothing right? LOL.

In all seriousness, the number of boxes could be restricted by the cost for the lumber so, I have to be careful there too.

Thanks,

-- Jim

Outputter, as mentioned, you can use a router to square and dimension lumber. You can make simple jigs such as a router thicknesser using two strips of wood double sticky taped to a bench on either side of the board, and two rails attached to the bottom of the router to that slide on these strips. Then you use a large bit and move it all over the piece, lower the bit and do it again. I have used a similar technique to level things in the past and it is very accurate. I would stay away from a cheap jointer and expensive router jigs.

Good tools do cost some bucks, and I am sure we all have bought several to replace ones that we wish we had up-scaled the first time. I don’t know of any that I wish I had bought cheaper. But you do have to start somewhere. It is a quandary. Seriously, check Craigslist and eBay (you can tell the search engine to limit your search to 50 miles away). There are a lot of good used tools out there.

Gary, do you have a similar deal on your Unisaw?

Steve

-- Stevethepeeve -- I'm no rocket surgeon

Thanks for the help SPalm. I’m stuck on how to set up the router rails jig without having the jointer or planer to create the lumber used in the jig. Is it possible to set up the jig without having square and flat lumber to use in the jig? Can you clarify the statement “I would stay away from a cheap jointer and expensive router jigs.”? I am searching regularly for used tools but I haven’t found any yet.

Thanks

-- Jim

For the router jig, imagine taking a piece of plywood. Plywood because it will have a perfect straight and stable edge. Cut it in half and use the two straight edges separated by, lets say 4 inches so that you can rest your router on both pieces at the same time. Now if you places a piece of lumber between the plywood you could plane it perfectly flat by sliding the router on the plywood.

Here is a large scale example:
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=58

You can just scale it down.

I can’t imagine you not being able to get flat square S4S lumber.

Gary

-- Gary - Never pass up the opportunity to make a mistake look like you planned it that way & "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit" -Aristotle

The part I don’t get is what to sit the plywood sled on so that it is level to the ground or parallel to the board I’m trying to plane.

The S4S lumber I get is always just a little bit out of square or has some twist in it or a hump. My understanding of S4S is that it doesn’t have to be square and parallel.

I hope ya’ll understand that I’m an amatuer about this stuff so I may not know the basics you think I know yet. Thanks again.

-- Jim

OutPutter, my comment about expensive router jigs was that I thought you should not spend your limited funds on the jigs or tables. You can mount a router upside down on most any home built table by just drilling a few holes. Add a fairly straight piece of lumber and two C-clamps and you have a router table. People take this concept to extremes, but you really don’t have to. Someday I will post mine, it is at least twice the cost of your entire expenditure here.

About the thicknesser that I had mentioned; here is a stolen picture of somebody doing a simple one. But like Gary’s it is probably a bit large, just scale it down. Double sticky carpet tape or clamp two pieces of ply or MDF to a flat surface. It could be an old door on sawhorses or your workbench. Place your work piece between them. Get two square channel steel tubes from Lowes and attach them to a plate that screws to your router. Chuck a 3/4 inch bit and route away. I used one to flatten a 5 foot butcher-block counter top. There are tons of cheap jigs like this to do things like joint and make finger joints etc. A router is a versatile tool.

Like this

Trouble with a jointer is that you also need a planer. And visa-versa and this will blow your budget.

Steve

-- Stevethepeeve -- I'm no rocket surgeon

Steve, thanks again for the reply. I see now what you meant about the router jigs. The Incra is one expensive jig when you get going. I’ll take another shot at understanding the router rails technique. The way I understand all the pictures and articles is that the work piece is below the rails that carry the router. No matter what I do with the router and the rails, the work piece will be co-planer with the rails. If the rails are twisted, the work piece will end up twisted. Right? That’s why I keep saying that in order for that to work, I need someing in my shop that is smooth and flat. Right? Thanks again for the patience.

-- Jim

Update on my research ….
If I buy a Band Saw and a Jointer and some Hand Planes, the milling and production process will be as follows:

1) Cut to rough length – 60” with a Circular Saw
2) Resaw to rough thickness – 1” (if necessary) with a Band Saw
3) Flatten one face with a Jointer
4) Square one edge with a Jointer
5) Square second edge with a Jointer
6) Flatten second face parallel Band Saw
7) Smooth faces if necessary with Hand Planes
8) Rip to final width – 3” with a Circular Saw
9) Cut to final length with a Miter Saw
10) Cut dovetails with a Dovetail Saw
11) Glue up panel for top with Clamps
12) Glue up panel for bottom with Clamps
13) Round over edges with a Router
14) Attach hardware Hand Tools
15)Apply finish

I’m interested to hear from those who think I can do it with less equipment or some other combination of equipment that would be less expensive. Or, maybe you can think of a better list of equipment to build small boxes that would impact shop safety, total cost in materials, or labor or that costs more but is worth the cost so to speak. I’m still hesitant because money is tight but I feel like the project is of the highest importance so I don’t want to delay too much longer. If I get the wrong equipment, it could take a lot longer to get the boxes started and completed. Any help is greatly appreciated. Tell me how you do boxes and maybe that wil give me more to go on. Thanks a million Lumber Jocks. I don’t know where I’d be without this wonderful resource. I’ve never felt so inspired.

-- Jim