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Grizzly Spiral Cutterhead problem.

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Forum topic by markplusone posted 08-15-2015 11:54 AM 1484 views 0 times favorited 43 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


08-15-2015 11:54 AM

Its been a while since I have been on the forum but Im looking for like minded people to look at this problem from the outside and tell me if Im nuts. I bought the G0453Z about 4 years ago. After the initial “getting used to it” period, ive come to love it. It has served me well and I have no complaints about the machine except I wish it had a little more power (insert man grunt here). A couple weeks ago, I got into a nice fat contract that allowed me to splurge on a new spiral cutterhead for my grizzly jointer as well as replace the cutters in my planer. I too didn’t like the price of grizzlys carbide (7.00/cutter) and decided to go to global tooling for their inserts (1.73/cutter). I installed the new equipment in both machines. First run though on the planer and I noticed equally spaced gouges in the work all the way down its length of travel through the machine. I surmised that being so consistent in spacing, that is wasn’t a debris issue and after removing the cover found a cause. The teeth, when set and the screw torqued, turn ever so slightly in the pocket. I assumed Global sent me a bad batch of carbide. I went and bought a new digital caliper and mic’d the inserts. What I found was that the inserts from Global were dead on 14mm x 14mm x 2mm. So I measured the old inserts. The Old inserts were mic’ing out at 14.12mm-14.17mm on the outside dimensions. Still 2mm on the thickness. After calling grizzly customer service, they acted as if they have never seen this problem. He actually suggested showing it to someone at the showroom. Im an hour and a half away from the Muncy location. So I drove out, showed them that the inserts were not what was advertised and the only answer that I got was that you have to use grizzly inserts in grizzly heads and that They never said that anyone elses inserts would fit in the head. At this point I was livid. They refused to admit that the 14mm x 14mm x 2mm is a standard insert and that they had actually created a proprietary insert and head so that you had to use their inserts. The ironic thing here is that the “H” series aftermarket heads, like the one I installed in my jointer, are the actual standard insert. The global tooling teeth and the “H” series teeth are interchangeable, as they should be. I sent a couple of inserts to global tooling and he emailed me back that the measurements were within tolerance of the standard except for the L and W. He measured 14.12×14.12. He also mentioned tolerances for inserts like these run right around +-.002mm and that the 14mm x 14mm x 2mm insert is actually one of the top five most common inserts they sell. So from that I surmised that the “T” series head was specifically designed to use the popularity of this insert size while making it impossible to use any other insert than grizzly inserts at a premium price. This head is in any machine sold with a spiral cutterhead that uses the T21348 insert. I asked them just to replace my head with one of the “H” series heads. Keep the carbide, I have plenty. They of course declined and reiterated their point that they never said any other insert would fit. There is nothing in the manual, advertising or badging on the machine that indicate or otherwise alert you that this head will only receive the grizzly inserts or that it is proprietary. I’m wanting to know how many people have seen or heard of this problem and what they were able to do about it.

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.


43 replies so far

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CharlesA

3018 posts in 1257 days


#1 posted 08-15-2015 12:34 PM

I can’t imagine any company replacing a part (the head in this case) so you can use inserts sold by other companies.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#2 posted 08-15-2015 12:47 PM

I bought the machine because it used such a common (our so I thought) insert. If it was labeled as only using that insert, I wouldn’t have purchased the machine. The cost of the teeth is almost as much as a whole new head. I’m wondering why they didn’t label it’s dimensions accurately. It’s like buying a remote control that says it uses aa batteries. When it’s time to replace that batteries it turns out aa batteries don’t fit and it needs an “ab” size battery that they make and is 4 times as expensive with no discernable advantage.

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3926 posts in 1953 days


#3 posted 08-15-2015 01:33 PM

While it may not sit right with you, I agree with Charles. I suspect you would have had a similar response from any company. What you surmised about the T series head may (or not) be correct, but even if it is, Grizzly doesn’t owe you anything, legally or morally. I can sympathize with where you are, but it’s one of those things that happens.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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WDHLT15

1571 posts in 1935 days


#4 posted 08-15-2015 01:47 PM

The Grizzly inserts for that planer (GO453Z) are badly over-priced. To me, that is the issue.

-- Danny Located in Perry, GA. Forester. Wood-Mizer LT40HD35 Sawmill. Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln. hamsleyhardwood.com

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#5 posted 08-15-2015 01:59 PM

WDHLT15, grizzly has always upped the price on the wearables for their machines. Ive come to expect it and honestly, Im fine with that. I can always buy a lower dust collector bag on a roll for 120 for 100 of them. I don’t simply because I like walking around the showroom once in a while to look at new toys. The reason that the “T” series inserts are SO expensive is partly because of that but a larger portion is because Grizzly, to my well researched knowledge, is the only manufacturer that uses the 14.17×14.17×2mm insert. Lower production numbers cost a lot more just because its a custom size in a limited quantity. Now I would like Charles and Fred to elaborate more on why this is not an issue for them. This is the part I’m trying to wrap my head around. Everything Im reading and talking to in the industry is telling me ive been rope a doped.

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#6 posted 08-15-2015 02:18 PM

The machines that use this insert are: G0452Z 6”jointer, G0453PX 15” planer, G0453Z 15” planer, G0454Z 20” planer, G0490X 8” jointer, G0604ZX 6” jointer, G0609X 12” jointer, G0706 12” jointer, and all the aftermarket heads in the “T” series, T10125 6”, T10126 8”, T10127 12”, T1012815”, and T10129 20”. Even on the chart from grizzly I used to make the list, it still lables them as 14×14x2. My recommendation is that if you want a spiral cutterhead in a grizzly machine, buy the straight knife version and buy either the “H” series head or a Byrd Shelix head. Youll be saving a lot of money. I will note that ive been told Grizzly does have an awesome price for the Byrd heads.

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3926 posts in 1953 days


#7 posted 08-15-2015 02:42 PM

Now I would like Charles and Fred to elaborate more on why this is not an issue for them. This is the part I m trying to wrap my head around.
- markplusone

I won’t elaborate on that,. because I think it is an issue with them. My response is addressing your desire for them to provide you with a cutterhead that accepts aftermarket inserts….what company in the world would do that? ( Don’t forget the part about it being 4 years old.)

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#8 posted 08-15-2015 03:29 PM

I paid for a machine that is designed to receive 14×14x2 mm inserts. That is not what I got. So yes, I asked for the head that does take them. And in the carbide world, there is no such thing as “aftermarket”. I’m not putting a supercharger in a geo metro and blaming the company when it blows up. This machine, by their definition, was supposed to receive 14×14x2 inserts, no matter where they’re from. To use the battery analogy, you can buy aa batteries in alkaline, Ni-MH, Ni-Cd, lithium etc. etc. But they all have the same physical dimensions to fit in the equipment that uses them

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#9 posted 08-15-2015 03:43 PM

I forgot to address the machines age. It is 4 years old. I have been very pleased that this is the first time I’ve had to replace a set of inserts on it. I have no problem with the longevity of the teeth. As soon as I figured out the problem I alerted grizzly. Now that you point it out, I’m sure they are banking on you not having to replace a set till after the warranty is up although blades are not covered under warranty anyway. The head though would still be and a better argument made for replacement at that point. I’ve never heard of anyone going through all sides of the inserts in under a year though.

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3926 posts in 1953 days


#10 posted 08-15-2015 04:12 PM

Well, though I have a few other disagreements with you (no such thing as aftermarket?????) it doesn’t matter. You are unhappy, and I understand; but I still think what you ask isn’t reality. But I’ll bow out and let those who may agree with you offer their opinions.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#11 posted 08-15-2015 04:34 PM

I guess the real question is can anyone come up with a real, logical reason why I should not pursue this? Am I missing some legal or moral point here and if so, what is it. That’s what I’m really after in this discussion. not necessarily if, but why you would or not pursue this problem. All I know is if I ever delivered a piece for a customer and it was out of the agreed specs, I would be responsible for it

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#12 posted 08-15-2015 04:41 PM

To qualify my remarks on no such thing as aftermarket, all inserts are sold by size. The only thing that changes is the grade of carbide, and there are literally thousands of grades to do all kinds of jobs in all kinds of conditions. It’s not like a car part that fits but has a different, cheaper design. Inserts are simply sold by size no matter what company you’re getting them from. That is why my global tooling inserts and the replacement “h” series inserts, manufactured by different companies at different times in different countries, still measure exactly the same

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3018 posts in 1257 days


#13 posted 08-16-2015 02:43 PM



Now I would like Charles and Fred to elaborate more on why this is not an issue for them. This is the part I m trying to wrap my head around. Everything Im reading and talking to in the industry is telling me ive been rope a doped.

- markplusone

I didn’t say you shouldn’t be disappointed, simply that expecting Grizzly to replace the head so you can buy inserts from someone else is unreasonable. In their marketing of this item, do they say they use “industry standard” inserts, or did you infer that from the sizing? Seems like every tool company I know will say that, for best performance, use genuine ”_” replacement parts. In this regard, I think your battery analogy breaks down since batteries are always made by third party providers. To me, spiral cutter inserts are not so common that one assumes that even similarly sized inserts will have the exact same edge, etc. Unless I hear more information that I haven’t heard so far, I think you rope-a-doped yourself.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Shadowrider's profile

Shadowrider

183 posts in 669 days


#14 posted 08-16-2015 04:23 PM



WDHLT15, grizzly has always upped the price on the wearables for their machines. Ive come to expect it and honestly, Im fine with that. I can always buy a lower dust collector bag on a roll for 120 for 100 of them. I don t simply because I like walking around the showroom once in a while to look at new toys. The reason that the “T” series inserts are SO expensive is partly because of that but a larger portion is because Grizzly, to my well researched knowledge, is the only manufacturer that uses the 14.17×14.17×2mm insert. Lower production numbers cost a lot more just because its a custom size in a limited quantity. Now I would like Charles and Fred to elaborate more on why this is not an issue for them. This is the part I m trying to wrap my head around. Everything Im reading and talking to in the industry is telling me ive been rope a doped.

- markplusone

You are exactly correct. I did some looking and I can’t find any inserts of this size in any of the carbide catalogs. The 14X14X2 are just a standard size that you can find all over the place. I also see them in 10 packs running from $15 to $30 depending on grade and coating.

And for those that don’t know .12mm is about .005” rounded to 3 decimal points. As far as carbide inserts go that’s a big difference, the really cheap crappy ones hold .002” easily without any grinding. Grizzly definitely went proprietary.

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markplusone

81 posts in 2414 days


#15 posted 08-16-2015 06:46 PM


Now I would like Charles and Fred to elaborate more on why this is not an issue for them. This is the part I m trying to wrap my head around. Everything Im reading and talking to in the industry is telling me ive been rope a doped.

- markplusone

I didn t say you shouldn t be disappointed, simply that expecting Grizzly to replace the head so you can buy inserts from someone else is unreasonable. In their marketing of this item, do they say they use “industry standard” inserts, or did you infer that from the sizing? Seems like every tool company I know will say that, for best performance, use genuine ”_” replacement parts. In this regard, I think your battery analogy breaks down since batteries are always made by third party providers. To me, spiral cutter inserts are not so common that one assumes that even similarly sized inserts will have the exact same edge, etc. Unless I hear more information that I haven t heard so far, I think you rope-a-doped yourself.

- CharlesA


I did infer, as Im sure was the intent of Grizzly, after reading 14×14x2 insert in the catalog, manual and machine badging that it actually used a 14×14x2 insert. Im pretty literal like that when reading specs. There is no mention that their inserts were the only ones they recommend or allow. Ive been through the advertising several times as Im considering litigation to fix this. I don’t think that demanding what you paid for from a company is unreasonable at all. Especially when the mistake is not in anything I did, but the companies presentation of the machine. I would also urge you to do some more research of carbide inserts. The 14×14x2 insert is exceptionally common. Not just in the spiral cutterhead world, but other areas of manufacturing as well (hand milling tools, metal working tooling etc etc). You can pick up the phone, call 5 different carbide suppliers anywhere in the world, tell them you want a 14×14x2 insert for a spiral cutterhead being used on wood and you will get the same thing from them all. A 14×14x2 insert with a 30 deg. back cut and some sort of relief cut on the shoulder. I can say that not because of my experience, but from the experience of the two manufacturers Ive talk to that actually produce carbide inserts. Carbide inserts are a huge 3rd party industry. Most machine manufacturers may or may not produce their heads but they by a large margin, do not produce their own carbide. Almost all carbide is from a 3rd party supplier just like bearings, electronics or motors. That shouldn’t surprise anyone with experience in machine production. With all that said, even if grizzly utilised a different bevel (they don’t but just for the sake of argument) the outside dimensions should still be 14×14x2. Bevel angle does not effect the outside dimensions or tolerances.

-- Dont carry that which you dont hold with.

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