Canadian Grizzly owners beware...

I am amazed and baffled at how they can find out whether a power bar had that CSA/UL stamped or molded on it after it had been through a fire.

-- Ed

Not sure how they figured this out myself but there were some pretty unlucky people who bought this product trying to save a buck at the till.

-- A hammer dangling from a wall will bang and sound like work when the wind blows the right way.

Part of the” Free Trade Deal” was to bring in reciprocity between U/L standards in the U.S. and CSA here in Canada as they are for all intents identicle in requirements.
You may want to check this out before you go any furlther with this thread.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I am just going on the information given to me by Busy Bee, while UL and CSA are similar they do have their differences, maybe not in the minimum requirements but by what companies or organizations they are recognized by. Just figured I would post this topic for Canadian Grizzly owners to check with their insurance companies to find out if it has any real effect on their coverage, insurance companies can be very picky on who and what they cover, this could be a loop hole for them to jump through in the event of an incident occurring.

-- A hammer dangling from a wall will bang and sound like work when the wind blows the right way.

Hence, my comment.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Most companies will put UL approved in their manuals. Grizzly however, not so much. I’m just sayin. Also, the fact that something has a UL tag on it doesn’t necessarily mean the entire unit is UL tested.
There are cases where it was just the cord that was UL approved, so the company just left the tag on the cord after installing into equipment. What would you read into it if you saw the tag.

-- Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy-May all your dovetails fit tight and right the first time

Here’s is some background infor re U?L CSA agreements:

CSA, UL Agreement Streamlines Certification Process for Electrical Manufacturers
Mar 3, 2004 12:00 PM
By Ashok Bindra, Editorial Director, PETech

Several months of negotiations between two major North American safety certification organizations, the CSA International (CSA) and Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (UL), has resulted in an agreement that streamlines the certification process for electrical manufacturers. As a result, the two have adopted an expanded memorandum of understanding (MoU) and completed the first phase of a mutual acceptance program for electrical components—the first milestone of an agreement the two organizations inked late last year.

While this agreement is designed to assist manufacturers in getting their products to Canadian and U.S. markets more quickly, without redundant testing, it has much greater appeal. Since UL works closely with European agencies such as VDE, as well as with certification organizations in Asia, it hopes to attract similar groups from overseas to offer a global one-stop shop in the future. In the meantime, the two players must cooperate closely to make this program operable in North America.

“The expanded MoU and the mutual acceptance program are part of UL’s overall drive to help manufacturers get safer products to market faster,” said Gus Schaefer, UL’s senior vice president and COO for the United States and Canada. “We are committed to ensuring that these objectives are met. The fundamental goal is to meet the needs of our clients without compromising the integrity of our marks,” added Schaefer. “We will follow up inspections to maintain the integrity of UL mark.”

With the completion of the first phase of the component agreement, CSA and UL now accept several component categories for use in low-voltage distribution and industrial control equipment. Under the agreement, as many as 52 additional component categories and 11 additional end-product categories are being considered.

In announcing the successful completion of Phase 1 implementation activities, Grant Carter, CSA Group VP of marketing and communications, said “We are pleased with the continued support of our industry colleagues and impressed by UL’s positive cooperation to meet our joint commitment to implementing Phase 1 on time. With that cooperation, we are moving forward with urgency to implement the remaining phases of these accords so that many electrical manufacturers can benefit from a more efficient, yet highly rigorous, product testing and certification process without undue delay.”

According to NEMA President Malcolm O’Hagan, “The mutual component acceptance program is increasing the competitiveness of our electrical manufacturers by reducing costs and clearing the path to market. The expansion of the agreement by UL and CSA is commendable. We encourage the two organizations to continue with this cooperative effort.”

Phase 1 end products include transfer switches, combination motor controllers, industrial control panels, motor control centers, panel boards, power conversion equipment, power outlets and power outlet fittings, switchboards, dead front, and switchgear assemblies. Phase 1 categories of components include fuse holders, cartridge type and plug; fuse accessories; ground-fault sensing and relaying equipment; industrial control panels; combination motor controllers; miscellaneous lamp holders; meter socket bases and accessories; panel board and switchboard accessories; supplementary protectors; relay sockets and assemblies; switches, molded case; terminal blocks; auxiliary devices; motor controllers, float-and pressure; motor controllers, magnetic; motor controllers, manual; motor controllers, miscellaneous; industrial control, miscellaneous apparatus; programmable controllers; protective relays; switches; and industrial control.

For more information, visit www.csa-international.org/components or www.ul.com.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Mind boggling

-- Jim from Heirloom Woodshop Southern Oregon

I second that Jim, I got a email on my blackberry at work today and I had the deer in the headlights look on my face for about half an hour after reading this one lol.

-- A hammer dangling from a wall will bang and sound like work when the wind blows the right way.

The cost to Grizzly to have all of their products UL/CSA certified would be tremendous. I do think that with equipment such as a jointer they could install a CSA (or cUL) certified electric motor and not have to get the entire jointer certified. Then hopefully they could use that motor on multple machines.

Perhaps Grizzly could sell the jointer without a motor?

-- -Dale

I make the occasional UL/CSA labeled equipment at my real job. I won’t go so far as to call the labeling a scam, but it’s close. Grizzly would almost certainly have to have each model labeled to the tune of $60k, though they may get a better deal than I can. If they changed a motor or wiring or other component, then they have to get it re-labeled. That would very quickly add up for them.

In the US only permanet wiring is required to be UL listed. Most cord connected equipment is exempted.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

There is no national requirement in the US for UL. It comes down to local or state agencies to adopt that standard. Hence Washington state freaks out if they don’t have a stamp and 47 other states couldn’t care less. Also, you can UL to label pretty much anything, corded or not. As long as the check clears.

There is definitely a lot of politics and $$$$$$ involved in UL listing :-))

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Well, that is why so many companies move out to greener and friendlier pastures.
You would think that Grizzly does not manufacture the motor or the cord or even the switch and if you include UL certified parts then by extension your equipment would be certified under the umbrella of the parts. But alas it is not that simple is it?
Wait we are going to add carbon emissions taxes to the mix! God Almighty help us all….

jerryz, you are correct. All UL listed parts does not make a UL listed product. As a potential employer, for years I have been telling people employment in the US is dead. All these asinine regulations and over zealous power hungry bureaucrats are a big part of the problem.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

In Canada CSA is a privately owned business originally set up by the corporations of the day to prevent competition in the electrical field.
Today is it the de facto reference standard used by government bureaucrats to specify and thereby dodge responsibility for items ordered by governments and hospitals etc.
CSA like many similar bureaucracies, has made some serious miscalculations regarding various endorsed products and has had to subsequently recall them from the market.
The short answer is it is just another hurdle to making it to the big money and not as protective nor as efficient as one would like to believe.

If I were in charge for a day I would insist that reasonable standards be set for current productions and that components that have certified endorsements be recognized period.

p.s. it’s a great loophole for insurance companies.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob, you are very knowledgeable on this subject, you really did your homework on this one. Thanks for all your input (even if some of it did boggle my mind a little lol).

-- A hammer dangling from a wall will bang and sound like work when the wind blows the right way.

There are about a dozen other certifying agencies in the US that will all put a stamp on something. They all work to the UL standard. By law, any municipality is supposed to accept them as equivalent. This is great for the US since it gives some competition to UL. Canada AFAIK isn’t so lucky. CSA has ever so slightly altered the UL standards so it gives them cover for not accepting UL.

PS. What I really love is cheap Chinese stuff (Harbor Freight) that has a UL stamp. 9 times out of 10 they fake it. UL labeled stuff always uses the UL trademark symbol and usually has the file number under it. Next time you’re there (and you know you will be) take a look.

UL is a consumer protection agency.

UL does not certify that an item, works, is of quality, or has any value.

UL is only concerned with determining if the consumer is likely to be injured while using the product.

You can pay UL to certify a hammer. Doesn’t mean it will drive nails. Just means it wont cause you harm while holding it, unless you misuse it.

With equipment, there is a listing number assigned to the entire piece of equipment. An inspector glances at the equipment, asks a few questions, looks at some specs and makes a report. If he finds some piece out of sorts, he will ask questions and call his boss and they will ask you questions, then if nothing is seen to be overly dangerous, they cash your check and send you a listing number you can proudly display on your equipment.

You can then yell from the roof about how your equipment is so nice and it is even UL listed!

Of course the consumer has no idea it all means very little.

And that’s what your tax money will get you in the good ole USA. A system where by rules are established and when all are followed, very little is accomplished. And somehow all this becomes “required” to do business.

I had a toaster that made toast. The toaster was not consistent or easily adjustable. It was UL listed. When I plugged it in, I did not suffer electrical shock. When I touched the outer case, I did not suffer electrical shock, but it did burn your hand. The box advised that the surface would become hot though.

Things might be worse without UL. But things are not necessarily better with UL.
It’s all BS, just gimme the parts, I’ll make my own.

-- "The equipment exsists...........I have seen it."