LumberJocks

Sawstop Files Suit Against Bosch

  • Advertise with us

« back to Power Tools, Hardware and Accessories forum

Forum topic by todd4390 posted 07-16-2015 06:49 PM 4808 views 0 times favorited 152 replies Add to Favorites Watch
View todd4390's profile

todd4390

130 posts in 935 days


07-16-2015 06:49 PM

This should be interesting:
Tualatin, OR — July 16, 2015 — SawStop, LLC, the world leader in table saw safety, today announced that it has filed complaints at the U.S. International Trade Commission and the U.S. District Court in Oregon against Robert Bosch GmbH of Germany and its subsidiary Robert Bosch Tool Corporation to stop infringement of SawStop’s patented inventions.
After years of denying the need for active injury mitigation technology on table saws, Bosch has announced that it intends to release a table saw that incorporates numerous inventions developed and patented by SawStop. As part of the lawsuit, SawStop is asking the ITC to exclude Bosch’s infringing table saws from entry into the United States, and to order Bosch to stop advertising and selling infringing products in the United States.
“SawStop has invested millions of dollars developing inventions to protect woodworkers from serious injury,” said Dr. Stephen Gass, SawStop’s President, “and those inventions have been awarded patents. Patents are the cornerstone of American innovation, protecting the work of inventors from unauthorized use. A foreign corporation like Bosch, who takes advantage of the American patent system by filing multiple patent applications every day, should respect the patents awarded to others instead of relying on its size and financial resources to disregard those patents.”
“We are proud of the difference our table saws have made in the lives of woodworkers,” said Dr. Gass. “SawStop saws have already saved thousands of woodworkers from serious injury. And although Bosch is one of the world’s largest companies with billions of dollars in annual revenue, we will vigorously defend our patent rights.”


152 replies so far

View SirIrb's profile

SirIrb

1239 posts in 698 days


#1 posted 07-16-2015 06:57 PM

“SawStop saws have already saved thousands of woodworkers from serious injury. And although Bosch is one of the world’s largest companies with billions of dollars in annual revenue, we will vigorously defend our patent rights.”

If they really cared about woodworkers they wouldnt try to stop a company from adapting similar tech. I despise patents. They stop creativity.

-- Don't blame me, I voted for no one.

View Kazooman's profile

Kazooman

628 posts in 1420 days


#2 posted 07-16-2015 07:13 PM



I despise patents. They stop creativity.

- SirIrb

Can you explain that a bit? Patent protection is a reward for creativity, not a bar to it. Companies and individuals who invest time and money to create a marketable product deserve the right to market that product with a period of exclusivity to recoup their investment and garner additional funds for future rounds of creativity.

View todd4390's profile

todd4390

130 posts in 935 days


#3 posted 07-16-2015 07:18 PM

I’m gonna have to agree with Kazooman on this. I feel as though patents prevent crooks from stealing ideas and harming the original creator versus going out and creating their own ideas. So with that I would say patents foster creativity.

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

7179 posts in 2044 days


#4 posted 07-16-2015 07:19 PM

Protect intellectual property rights. Patents rock!

View SirIrb's profile

SirIrb

1239 posts in 698 days


#5 posted 07-16-2015 07:29 PM

I ll start by saying I have 10 to 14 patents awarded to me from the company I worked for at the time (Design Engineer).

Mankind has invented and created for thousands of years without gov interference into the process. (there is my first knock against it, it is gov regulated; I hate gov).

If I look at a SS and say that is fine but I could tweak it and make it not touch the hot dog before the blade drops, I have to wait till the patent runs out or seriously reverse engineer and redesign it (and be ready to battle in court).

Innovation is made when someone uses my ideas as a springboard to improve it or make something like it better. I know, but someone could just make one like it and rip me off, right? So what?—make yours of such quality with such great customer service that it is self evident who is the widget master.

Look, I know this appears like an odd concept. Thats fine. Just know this: One of the largest and most money making industries does not use the USPTO (patent, trademark, copyright). They are the websites that if you stumble over you make sure to close it down quick. Billions of dollars but they dont worry about a copyright on their material (similar example to patents; their all in bed together philosophically—I said “bed together” after making a porn reference…on purpose).

If you would like further reading PM me and I ll get it to you.

EDIT: Found this.
https://mises.org/library/intellectual-property-key-success

-- Don't blame me, I voted for no one.

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

3668 posts in 1188 days


#6 posted 07-16-2015 07:46 PM

The Bosch design is different, hopefully they will ruin SS.

View AHuxley's profile

AHuxley

493 posts in 2789 days


#7 posted 07-16-2015 07:47 PM

In regards to patents both camps are correct and both camps are wrong, just depends on whether you favor a utilitarianism or capitalism point of view. There MAY be a black and white answer to which breeds the most advancement long term but that would require vast social experiments in a vacuum that just aren’t possible. The issue is the human factor which “still” can’t be predicted effectively. For me personally I tend to like the concept of patents, but like most idea I think are good I also think they could be managed better, but I also don’t suggest I could do a better job. My view taking into account the current state of manufacturing and the current consumer mindset without patents we would see the large low cost manufacturer win most every time.

On the issue my guess would be Bosch prevails BUT SS will likely be able to extend their chock hold on the “safer saw” business for a while longer, how long remains to be seen.

View SirIrb's profile

SirIrb

1239 posts in 698 days


#8 posted 07-16-2015 07:50 PM

I think where SS will come out on top for a long time is the cabinet saw market, obviously. If Bosch started in that direction it would take years to get a good name. How often do you walk by a Bosch saw at Lowes and say “Ummmmhummm, I gotta get me some of that.” Me either.

On the issue my guess would be Bosch prevails BUT SS will likely be able to extend their chock hold on the “safer saw” business for a while longer, how long remains to be seen.

- AHuxley


-- Don't blame me, I voted for no one.

View AHuxley's profile

AHuxley

493 posts in 2789 days


#9 posted 07-16-2015 08:13 PM



I think where SS will come out on top for a long time is the cabinet saw market, obviously.

- SirIrb

The issue there is the cabinet saw market is tiny and shrinking, SS was able to make a go in it exploiting a niche. The real money is in sliders and work site saws. Griggio and SS seemed to have joined forces on the slider market but if SCMI, Felder, Martin and others figure a way to side step SS then its game over there. If Bosch wins and is able to bring their worksite saw to market they will crush the SS work site saw. The are going to be under them in street price and have the ability to price them out of the market on a whim, they have a distribution network that is many times more expansive than SS, owning the big box stores is HUGE. Losing here will be tough on SS as their capitalization of the work site saw probably won’t be close to reaching projections. In the end SS will still own the cabinet saw market even if they lose, but if they do it will only be a matter of time before Bosch licenses the technology (one of their fortes) and SS sees this market dwindle too. The best shot SS has for long term viability is either they win here, they loose and no established company thinks the cabinet saw market is worth going after, they loose and are able to broaden their licensing.

The big box worksite saws are the crown jewel in this crown and I think Bosch will end up with it sitting in Germany.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

4245 posts in 1666 days


#10 posted 07-16-2015 08:28 PM

After years of denying the need for active injury mitigation technology on table saws, Bosch has announced that it intends to release a table saw that incorporates numerous inventions developed and patented by SawStop.

Not accurate. Bosch doesn’t use any of Sawstops technology… instead, they use a system based on the technology developed (and patented) by the PTI in combination with their own (and patented) systems. It’s a better and more efficient system and doesn’t destroy the blade when fired.

“SawStop has invested millions of dollars developing inventions to protect woodworkers from serious injury,” said Dr. Stephen Gass, SawStop’s President, “and those inventions have been awarded patents.

I’d like to know where the ‘millions of dollars’ of development were involved… As noted in this 2007 article in Inc Magazine, “Gass spent two weeks designing the technology and, using a $200 secondhand table saw, an additional week building a prototype.”

They don’t have a case, but I can see why they would try… once Bosch wins the case, it opens the doors for the rest of the PTI member companies to follow suit – and there is no way SS can compete in that environment. They are a small fish in a very large market, and up until now, all they had was legal threats to prevent competition. Once that barrier is removed, it’s just a matter of time – unless they can figure out a way to differentiate themselves in some other way.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

View hhhopks's profile

hhhopks

645 posts in 1845 days


#11 posted 07-16-2015 08:55 PM

Patents are part of the foundation to American innovations.
It would be interesting know what aspect of SS’s technology did Bosch supposedly have infringed on. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. There is bad blood in this industry.

Professionally, I would never argue against safety. But when do we stop in the name of safety? Self driven vehicles are on the verge of being introduced. Are we going to have a law that all vehicles must be self-driven because the technology is available and human aren’t safe drivers. How many billions will that save for our society? Buy Google stocks now :)

-- I'll be a woodworker when I grow up. HHHOPKS

View RobinDobbie's profile

RobinDobbie

133 posts in 1202 days


#12 posted 07-16-2015 09:06 PM


The Bosch design is different, hopefully they will ruin SS.

- bigblockyeti

I hope so, because I doubt I would ever buy a Saw Stop, otherwise, at least partially due to shenanigans like this.

View Kazooman's profile

Kazooman

628 posts in 1420 days


#13 posted 07-16-2015 09:34 PM

The Bosch design is different, hopefully they will ruin SS.

- bigblockyeti

I hope so, because I doubt I would ever buy a Saw Stop, otherwise, at least partially due to shenanigans like this.

- RobinDobbie

The Sawstop love/hate debate is well known on the forum. However, filing a lawsuit to try to protect your intellectual property rights under a granted US patent really can’t be labelled “shenanigans”. One could just as well label Bosch’s attempt to bring their own table saw safety system to market, only after SawStop marketed their version, “shenanigans”. But that wouldn’t be an appropriate analysis either. Gass’s attempts to have the technology made mandatory on all manufacturer’s saws is a totally different matter, and I would agree with you there. Note that he was unable to accomplish that. The system for protecting intellectual property, AND defining the limits thereof, works.

The final outcome will depend on just how the claims in the Gass patent are worded and whether or not there is an overlap between what has been granted in the patent and any aspects of the Bosch safety system. The mechanics of the two systems are totally different, but I don’t think that is what Gass will be basing his suit on, unless the claims in his patent applications are broad enough to include the Bosch technology. I suspect it is more on the methods of detecting contact between the saw operator and the blade, and the concept of lowering the blade beneath the saw surface as opposed to just stopping it cold. If this is the case it will be up to the courts to decide whether or not these claims are indeed valid and whether or not Bosch infringes them.

Note: Many have referenced the PTI and Bosch patents as having been granted. That is true. However, having a patent granted doesn’t necessarily mean that any or all parts of it will prove to withstand the test of time and the legal process. There was no real reason for SawStop to raise an expensive legal challenge to any of these follow-on patents until someone actually tried to bring a competing product to market. Now that Bosch has announced their intent the legal process will begin. Again, this is not “shenanagins” it is simply how the system works.

View AHuxley's profile

AHuxley

493 posts in 2789 days


#14 posted 07-16-2015 10:17 PM


“SawStop has invested millions of dollars developing inventions to protect woodworkers from serious injury,” said Dr. Stephen Gass, SawStop’s President, “and those inventions have been awarded patents.

I d like to know where the millions of dollars of development were involved… As noted in this 2007 article in Inc Magazine, “Gass spent two weeks designing the technology and, using a $200 secondhand table saw, an additional week building a prototype.”

- MrUnix

Seriously? Are you suggesting that you don’t think there were millions spent from the “aha moment” and rudimentary proof of concept prototype to the first production Sawstop? I am no Steve Gass fan BUT arguments like this don’t make any sense at all.

View Rob's profile

Rob

704 posts in 2538 days


#15 posted 07-16-2015 10:33 PM

Ha, as if nobody saw this coming….

-- Ask an expert or be the expert - http://woodworking.stackexchange.com

showing 1 through 15 of 152 replies

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com