Festool (I just don't get it.)

Like you point out Bob, it’s neat system but I can do most of the tricks with the stuff I have.
There are a number of tools I could really use to increase my productivity but that system doesn’t make the cut.
Don’t get me wrong here Mot and Dave<g>.

When I win the lotto I’ll get the set but right now I should be focusing on a Clearvue Cyclone or a decent 8” planer or new lithiium ion drills or a nice Leigh jig or an Ikeda or a new camera,or a new Mac or…

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Sometimes I think there is an idea that if we buy the latest state of the art gadgets, then we’ll be able to do what Norm does on TV without really having all the experience and good teaching. I know that I’ve fallen into that way of thinking before. If I would spend some time developing my skill with what I already have, I probably wouldn’t need to buy more or better tools as often.

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

...then I watch these guys who use a few bits and pieces of wood and a table saw and make dovetails as good as a $300 jig.

-- Bruce from Central New York

Hi Bob;
—-and then there’s the point that you make; “But no one, except Festool, is making attachments, and other stuff for Festool.”

And so once you start using ‘their’ tools, you are now locked into buying all the extra add ons that one needs to continue in this manor of woodworking, which is dictated by what ‘they’ are selling and will yet dream up….which only goes to prove that ‘they’ are smarter then I am, since their bank accounts are growing and I’m working harder to play in their game….

Never wanting to be a ‘junkie’ for no-one, I even make some of my own hand tools….but as for me and my house, I will work the wood in a manner that benefits the economy of my house.

Ah yes, life at working the wood can really be simple and good, and yes, only my two cents worth….
Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank

-- --frank, NH, http://frank.wordpress.com/

While I certainly can’t fault those who have a sufficient budget for Festool, they are beyond my means. When time equals money and you have more money than time, then by all means I can see the purchase as justifiable. This does not mean I don’t actually lust after a Domino, and a LN plane and… things too numerous to contemplate. I would have to sell a powerful number of pens and boxes to justify the expense.

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

I can not fault someone to buy a quality tool especially if you have the disposable income. Festool is just too expensive for me to get started with their products. I’m a hobyist and and have a collection of tools from over the years (long before Festool was commonly sold), I have to use them unrtil they are rendered useless.

How do you justify a $600 vacuum cleaner? Feestool products look neat, are quality, but the price are more for those who make a profit from woodworking.

-- WaywardHoosier - Behind schedule and over budget, but who's counting?

Bob,

I think that your points are reasonable. I guess to me it comes down to a need vs. a want (this is probably akin to your accurate hole theory). What a woodworker may need to get a job done is usually very different from what a woodworker may want to do it. Otherwise, we might all still be boring holes with a brace and bit and chopping mortises with a chisel – of course some do this because they enjoy it better than the alternatives.

With regard to Festool, it may be explained using the analogy of a fine German sports car vs. a more scaled back and simple vehicle that gets you from point A to B. Both will do the job, but if you have never experienced what it is like to drive a German sports car, you may not know what you are missing!

Coincidently, I just blogged about my budget alternative to using the Festool Domino for Loose Tenon joinery. Though I’d like to have the Domino in my shop for its performance and design I would have to havel a justified need before I were to purchase one. It sounds like you may already be doing Loose Tenons without the Domino, if not take a look at the simple method I describe.

-- Mark, Webster New York, Visit my website at http://thecraftsmanspath.com

Bob,
Festool is a well made system. If a person wanted to start from scratch, maybe it would be the way to go. My problem with the system is in the repeatablity. If I am building a set of cabinets, I do one setup on the table saw and cut all similar parts. I’ll cut all the stiles and then all the rails. If I need a rail to be 15 7/8 and it comes 15 29/32 at least they are all that length. Same way on my chop saw and router set ups. I really don’t see the possiblity of doing that with Festool. Now one of the Festoolians can tell me how wrong I am. But that’s ok.I can take it Tom(mot).

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

As we say over on the Festool Owner’s group, “perhaps Festool is not for you, then”.

I started without wanting a big shop, I have no big iron, and I’m a hobbiest. I can give you the reasons I went with Festool from that standpoint. A good number of the folks who use Festool that I’ve talked with are professionals, they justify the price difference with “compared to labor, the difference between a $50 cordless drill and a $400 cordless drill doesn’t matter”. For me, that price difference is pretty big, however:

• I can get a saw on a rail from a few other vendors, a relatively quiet saw on a rail with excellent dust collection wasn’t so easy to find. Even if the rail isn’t quite as cool as the ones available from other vendors. It’s not the features individually, it’s that they’re all in one package.
• I’ve been burned by cheap tools too often. I don’t know today what all of the features and things I want in a new tool are. My experience with Festool products so far is that if I buy Festool I won’t ever know, because I won’t notice the lack of those features. Unlike, say, my Skilsaw, or my Craftsman power tools. How many hours researching tool purchases rather than doing projects does it take for me to go with a brand that I’m relatively certain is going to be one of the best in the breed.
• Yeah, it’s a system. For good or bad. When the pitch was first made to me, I heard “system”, and almost ran screaming from the store. Now I love that my jigsaw, my circular saw and my router all fit the same rail, and any jigs I build with those rails, and the table which has one of those rails on a hinge and a fence and a bunch of good ways to clamp my work stock.
• My shop is my living room. Really. I do much of my woodworking over an afghan wool carpet, and there are 4 computers, a stereo and a bunch of knick-knacks in that room. Dust collection works that well for me.
• We had a $80 vacuum cleaner. We also had one of those extremely expensive Kirby vacuum cleaners (inherited). Both of those were replaced by the Festool dust collector: it’s quieter and more effective. My guess is that per-use it’ll end up being cheaper than both.
• What’s the ratio of your spending on wood to spending on tools? Now remember that tools are the capital portion of that expenditure. For me, that put a lot of the tool price in perspective.

On the Domino, yeah, you can set up a router and a jig to do those things. On my list of things to do is to build a set of dining room chairs. I could make jigs to cut the tenons and mortises for all of those pieces. When I consider the time necessary to do those operations, and the potential for mucking up pieces that I’ve carefully cut, I’m thinking that that’s about the time I get a Domino.

On the C12 drill, I’ve played with various battery powered drills and couldn’t imagine getting a battery powered drill. But they had the 3 tool pack, with the sander and the jigsaw, and I wanted the latter two and my sweety/partner said “it’d be really cool to have a battery powered drill”. I don’t know where the break even point is, I know it’s not the $150 cordless drills I’ve looked at previously, so it’s somewhere between that and the $460 cordless drill I’ve got. Maybe there’s a $250 cordless drill I’d be happy with, maybe it’s $350, but it doesn’t matter: I’ve got a cordless drill that’s actually the first drill I reach for, even for tasks like drum sanding. Tons of tasks around the house have gotten done because I didn’t have to string an extension cord and worry about what I was going to knock over dragging cables around, and could I have saved one or two hundred bucks? Maybe. How long would I have to have researched the topic to figure out what the differences were? That alone is worth a hundred bucks to me.

Like all of woodworking, either you’re doing this professionally, in which case you can do a pretty clear cost/benefit analysis, or you’re doing this as a hobby, in which case the cost/benefit analysis is a little harder to work out. The question I run up against when I look at hobbies is what parts of the hobby do I enjoy doing, and how much is it worth to me to avoid the parts I don’t like doing?

I also have some familial reasons to not want a table saw that’s not a euroslider or a Saw Stop: My dad’s got a few short fingers… So, whether or not my concerns about a table saw are rational fears or not, that enters into my cost equation, and not only does the saw cost a lot more, I’d need a bigger shop in which to put it.

To take another simile, I ride a fairly expensive bicycle, and I ride in a very upscale area (Marin County, California). Most people around here who ride a bicycle in that class take it into the shop very often. I’ve met people who take their bikes into the shop to get a tire change, let alone adjust their derailleurs. I’d rather adjust my own drivetrain and change my own tires because I actually enjoy that tinkering.

Similarly, some people like building jigs and working to fine-tune alignment. That doesn’t appeal to me, but if you enjoy doing that then the time spent on that stuff doesn’t cost you anything. More power to ya! I’m a little less interested in the journey and a little more interested in the destination, and I don’t have the space for a full-sized shop nor do I want to set one up.

-- Dan Lyke, Petaluma California, http://www.flutterby.net/User:DanLyke

Thank you all for your comments. Particularly Dan who took a good amount of time to add to my level of understanding. As my original post indicates, there is, no doubt, a valid market for Festool. I just wasn’t quite sure where it was. As Dan says at the end of his post, and I completely agree, its the destination (the result) that counts. How you get there is a personal choice. However, for many of us who have gone a great distance on one path, it is difficult to absorb a completely new technology into our practices and mate it with the equipment we already have.

No doubt Festool is innovative and beautifully built. That’s why I took the time to demo it. And again, in my original post I suggested that we leave cost aside. Lord knows the number of times I’ve spent, what some would consider a startling amount of money, for a special router bit. We all spend our dollars the way we wish. Possibly, if Festool had been around 20 years ago, I might have taken that path.

I also absolutely agree with Dan’s comments about cheap tools. IMHO they are unworkable, dangerous – so much so that in the evaluation of the total price, one should include the cost of the materials which will be wasted and maybe even the first trip to the emergency room. Several years ago I was given a cheap ($29.00) Skill circular saw as a door-prize for a new store opening. After smiling politely, it went into the trash as soon as I got home. If I’m going to loose a finger, its going to be through my own carelessness, not the carelessness of some company trying to sell a cheap, poorly designed tool.

I also can relate to Dan’s comment about “fear.” Fear is instrumental in keeping us connected to our digits no matter which tool we use.

With respect to Mark’s comment equating Festool to a fine German automobile, I would stack up my table saw, my surface planner, and many other powertools I own to Festool’s quality and performance. I think Festool did not intend to complete with conventional high quality tools. They are simply introducing an alternative.

-- Bob

My 2 Cents,
Buy what you can afford AND NEED
What you cannot afford MAKE even if you don’t need it
What you cannot make Use what they used a hundred years ago, Sharp planes and chisels, sweat and sore arms
I challange anyone to say they can do better woodworking than a hundred years ago with Festool or Makita or DeWalt ect.
You just can do it faster, BUT not better . And less rewarding.
ME I’m alergect to sweat and sore arms, but still cannot afford $700.00 for mortises!
I did spend $400.00 on Icra LS, it does alot though.
I did spend $18.00 on a brad nailer at Harbor Freight, (it would shoot at will) the third one I got was safe.
Everthing I do not use constantly and does not have to be very accurate I buy at Harbor Freight or Grizz ect. BUT I do make sure it is working properly before I give it my relax blessing.
By Now
Mark

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

There’s nothing Domino can do that my trusty Beadlock jig can’t. Been using it for years with plenty of success.

Fingersleft said:

I think Festool did not intend to complete with conventional high quality tools. They are simply introducing an alternative.

Two things there, the first is that Festool’s been around since, what, the 1920s or so? They’re just a new company in the North American market.

But to your “an alternative” point: exactly. Tom pointed out a couple of places that the “saw on a rail” concept requires different thinking. That’s a big deal. If I pick up a magazine, I can make most if not all of the cuts the magazine suggests, but quite often I can’t make ‘em the way that the magazine suggests. I don’t cut dadoes with a saw, I cut ‘em with a router. For a tablesaw you’ve got to build a jig to do angled cuts, for the Festool saw you’ve got to build a jig to do repeatable cuts (where the MFT and/or the MFS isn’t sufficient, although for most cases it is). Yes, it’s an alternative, and sometimes it requires thinking about things in entirely different ways from the tradition.

For the sake of the portable shop and my safety concerns and the price of real estate where I live, I’m all over Festool. If you’ve got room for a SawStop with a good dust collector, there are times when I envy you…

And as slaphitter points out, yeah, I could cut dovetails with a saw and a chisel. Lots of people do, and I respect them. If money were no object I’d have a WoodRat. Diff’rent strokes.

-- Dan Lyke, Petaluma California, http://www.flutterby.net/User:DanLyke

What you can afford to work safely and give yourself pleasure in your craft and end results that stand the test of time. That’s really all that is important.

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

I posted this comment in the other “Festool questioning” post—- you can buy a $10,000 car and it will serve you well… but many people buy the $30,000 or $50,000 + cars. Why? the little luxuries and sometimes “just because I can”.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Dan -

I didn’t know that Festool has been around since the 20’s. And regarding your comment about it being “a different way of thinking” – I agree. Maybe for me it’s just too much of a different way of thinking. Like any new technology, it requires time to assimilate. I think in the case of Festool, it would require too much of a learning curve for me. If I were a beginner, that would be no problem. Also, your comments regarding a portable or small shop or small work space make a compelling argument for Festool.

By the way, your comments about SawStop are dead-on. I would have one in my shop today, if I hadn’t purchased a new top of the line saw about two years ago. I could sell my saw, if I wanted to take a $1,000 hit. Somewhere off in the future, I know a SawStop will be in the shop.

Debbie -

As I mentioned in a previous post, I don’t think the luxury car analogy stands up. I acknowledge Festool is top of the line. But so is Grizzly, Laguna, Performax, Powermatic, and a number of other brands, from a quality and precision point of view. (I hope this last comment doesn’t start another “brand war”. I know, we all have our favorites.)

Mski -

Harbor Freight! That’s where I draw the line, particularly with any tool that shoots a piece of steel or spins a blade. I know all such tools are dangerous. However, I would like to think that the pieces/parts will stay somewhat connected.

And for all of you who mentioned DOLLARS -

If you want to see how to REALLY spend some money, just take a look at Bobby Hartness’ shop in this month’s edition of Woodcraft Mag. Makes me look like a pauper.

-- Bob

Many different reasons to purchase or not purchase the tools for our shops. I would like to drive a German car down the Autoban but this year I drove down I-80 through Nebraska for vacation. That is where I am right now.

Dan, I love your shop description and it shows how we have diverse lives that aproach our goal of woodworking. I have seen many outstanding shops with Festools in them. What a great way to go about woodworking.

I bought a $30 Rigid vacuum cleaner this weekend and I was amazed at how quiet and efficient it was for $30. Yes, it has been that long since I have bought my last shop vac. Would I have rather bought a Domino? Of course I would. My wife was glad I didn’t!

-- WaywardHoosier - Behind schedule and over budget, but who's counting?

I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil. If you search around on woodworking forums, topics very similar to these usually end up with rather offensive and berating comments. As much as I find topics like this to be pretty much intentionally antagonizing, I feel this discussion bore some fruit. Thanks all.

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

I’m not a ‘festool junkie’ by any means, but I do have some of their products that I consider to be superior to the alternatives. I don’t think of festool as a replacement for big iron, although I know some people use it that way.

I have a TS55 with guide rail system, for breaking down sheet goods and various cuts I can’t do on my tablesaw. (My shop is narrow and I can’t fit 7ft rails on my TS.) The superb dust collection is a big plus to me, so I got the package with the shop vac included, and I needed a shop vac anyway.

I have the Domino, as I was considering the leigh FMT and a decent quality biscuit jointer, and a tenoning jig for the tablesaw, and realized if I just went the way of the domino, it really wouldn’t be much more expensive, and would take up less room, too.

I also got a small finish sander, the ES125, after seeing the demo in woodcraft of how little dust made it off the piece compared to some of the other major brands. I have sinus issues, so this is a big plus for me.

Thats it. I don’t plan on filling my shop with Festool items. The C12, while a nice system, is just too pricey for me. I grabbed a brand new 18v Lion Makita for half that. The big routers don’t interest me.

The only other items festool makes that I might be intested in are the table, which I don’t have the space for, and consider just too overpriced, and the low end router, which I found to be amazingly controllable for detail work, but I just can’t justify $345 for. Maybe a birthday gift or something!

I think a company who makes a cordless drill with a TINY THREE PHASE MOTOR has something good going on, but I think I can spend $400 on much more than a 14.5V 3Ah drill somewhere else.

If you want German tools, GO BOSCH!!

-- Lane Custom Guitars and Basses

I think that we can sum up the whole Festool vs Non Festool very simply – ”Suit yourself and let the rest be pleased” If your budget can stand it and you want it – go for it. If not, buy what you want and can afford. Like the Luxury German car and Economy version – both will go from Point a to Point B – one will just do it more comfortably.

-- Bill - "Suit yourself and let the rest be pleased." http://www.cajunpen.com/

Ladies and Gentleman…some opinion from “across the pond”...

Festool is made for professionals that are working on the site.
It didn’t come to replace the table saw for cutting those 4’ x 8’, every woodworking shop that is dealing with cutting plywood, Melamine or MDF sheets on a daily bases, has a Slider.

The guy that made for me the stairs, came with a “Systainer” that included the circular saw, router, sander,drill, rail and shop vac. When I asked him “why Festool, they are very expensive” he replied “there is Festool and there is the “rest”...reliability for long time and for me, as a pro, it’s very important…time is money”.

Festool is expensive than the other brands also in Europe but, Festool is “Made in Germany”...(Bosch and DeWalt are not made in Germany)

Small example of what I mean…You know the Hitachi M12V (and the newer, M12V2), you can get it in USA for $120~150 but in Europe it costs $550~600…why? I don’t really know but I assume that they can sell at this price because all the European market is “expensive”...try to sell it in USA at this price and you remain with all your stock in the store…(btw, Bosch 4000 bench saw costs double in Europe).

But, Hitachi is not “Made in Japan”, but, in one of those “made in Chiwan” countries and they can “play” with the prices (in Japan, it costs $300~350).

I think that because Festool is “made in Germany”, there is no possibility to “play” with the price…it’s the same price all over the world…like Mercedes BMW or Metabo (also very expensive tools).

I bought (after 10 years in the hobby, I thought that I deserve it…) an Elektra Beckum (now Metabo) table saw, it’s Made in Germany and cost me around $1200….you would think WOW, no, simple extruded aluminum top and simple fence but every part is made in Germany, the labor cost is “a little bit” higher than China, and the quality is “a little bit” deferent so, it’s expensive…(but I think that, that’s the reason that many American companies “moved” to China…).

After cutting around 70 Cubic Feet of white Oak and many other “softer” woods, I could understand the difference from my other “Made in Chiwan” table saw…it’s still like brand new…I’m checking the blade alignment just to find that nothing moved and actually, I’m working on it already 2 years “maintenance free”.

Now, if you think that Festool is expensive, please check out this small drum sander
http://www.rjrstudios.com/

700 American Dollars!!!...why? because is “Made in America” and the American workers love big salaries, same like the German, french, Italians and the rest of the “Western world”...Not like the (far) “Eastern world” (except Japan of course)...

So, all the guys that thinks that “Festool” is “over-priced”....what do you think about this one…

BTW, I don’t have any of the Festools, too expensive for an amateur like me…

Regards
niki

OK what is wrong with not being paid slave labor wages!!!!!! AMERICAN WORKERS and the other countries you mention do not love BIG SALARIES GIVEN TO THEM they just like to Earn a decent salary for the EXCELLENT products they make, I am an AMERICAN worker and 99.999999% of the time you are going to get a better quality product from somewhere that pays their workers better, USA or other. Sorry but saying we LOVE our BIG salaries got my goat because we do not get BIG salaries just good pay for what we do.
If you want to start pointing fingers point yours at the big CORPS that go to third world countries and take advantage of cheap labor and lower thier products standards and quality for profit!!!!!!!!!
I have a PC 690 routi’n for almost 10 years, close to the same price of imports, never even had to change brushes! PROUDLY MADE IN THE USA it says on the motor !!
As earlier in this post I do buy Harbor frieght tools when I need to or do not need endurance or precision, I am too an amateur, BUT MY BIG AMERICAN SALARY forces me to buy Harbor Freight tools sometimes.

Sorry To ALL but I couldn,t read that post without venting, I’m sure there are alot of the Western World Workers that feels the same as me!

Bye now , I gotta go take my blood pressure medication now
Mark

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

well if you can’t vent amongst friends, where can you vent?? :)

the big CORPS comment gets my vote—we complain about the quality from other countries and the working conditions but “we” keep setting up “our” factories there and using and abusing for as cheap as “we” can get so “we” can make big bucks. The results lie on “our” shoulders…. shame on us.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

An interesting read. I won’t be part of the Festool Owners Group anytime soon. I still need to master my Harbor Freight biscuit joiner, my couping saw, my Stanley chisles and bench plane, and, and, and, and…

For those of you who can, or chose to, go for it.

Thank You MsDebbieP;

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

Mark,

Niki wasn’t knocking American-made products. He was equating the cost of an American-made product to that of a German-made product and saying both are worth more money because they are better-made than the crap that comes from China.

-- Ethan, http://www.merganserwoodworks.com, http://greystonegreen.blogspot.com/

Red Headed: with all do respect this is the quote” “Made in America” and the American workers love big salaries, same like the German, french, Italians and the rest of the “Western world”…
He was knocking all us BIG SALARY WORKERS like it was the BIG SALARY that made it cost alot!!!!!!!!
What got me was BIG SALARY! Come to SO CAL and see what that BIG SALARY gets you!!!!!!!!
I am sure it is like that in the other BIG SALARY countries!!!!!!!!!!!
Should I take my family to a tent and work 18 hours a day for a pound of rice and cup of milk.
I did quote him , He should be critisizing the big corps that SAY I HAVE A BIG SALARY!!!!!!!!
And no offence Niki maybe you do not understand what is going on over here in the western world!
still love ya all

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

The decision is easy for me. I simply can’t justify Festool for the amount of work I do. I consider myself a little more “into” woodworking than the average hobbyist, but still can’t bring myself to spending the bucks that Festool calls for. Having seen the demo’s and playing a bit with them at the store, they seem to be top notch. Many have clearly innovative ideas that are likely to be duplicated in the future. If I did production work, there would be a Domino and a Plunge Circ Saw on my bench.

As for attachments and accessorires, I was once told if you want to be rich, find a need and fill it. Any entreprenuers out there ready to make some Festool knock off attachements?

-- Jeff, South Carolina

Hi Mark

I’m so sorry that I was misunderstood, maybe because I’m not a native English speaker and my choice of words was not so good…I believe that native speaker wood choose better words than “big salaries” like you used the words “descent salaries”.

But what is “descent salary”, for the Chinese its maybe $200 (or less) a month, for the Americans, it’s maybe $1000 a month for the Germans it’s $2000 a month and for the Japanese, it’s $5000 a month….

But the product is produced in some country that the “descent salary” is “so & so” and it cannot be sold for less even if they sell it in China that the “descent salary” is $200 per month.

I’m sorry, but I did not point finger to the Americans but to all the “western world” (that USA is part of it) that usually have much higher salaries than the “eastern world”

I live in Poland, I feel very rich here, you know why, because a GOOD (even very good) salary here is around $1000 a month…people are living here from $200~300 retirement.
Just two days ago, a Policemen was in my house and he told me that his salary is 1100 Zloty = $423 and he have wife and two kids to feed….”if I will work in UK in construction, I’ll get 3 times more (and in UK, it’s considered cheap labor.

But all the “goodies” here, (cars TV fridge etc.) costs the same like in Germany, France etc.

I think that if you take the Festool or even Mercedes and produce them from exactly the same materials, technology etc, and make them in China, they will cost much much less…same as you will produce this Drum sander in China, it will not cost $700.

I did not have any intention “point a finger” or to say “you rich Americans” or something in the same spirit, on the contrary, I think that the American products are great, but they cost so…I was flying on American airplanes, B707 and B747 and at the time that you had to “tie” the mechanic to the engine on “other countries” airplanes (so that he can repair it in-flight), the American airplanes were “clean” and so easy to work on…

And I’m still your friend

Best regards
niki

I’m wondering if I want to chime in on this or not since it has appeared to become a sensitive subject. But I’m going to throw caution to the wind. One thing that needs to be considered in the discussion of international trade is the foreign exhange rate between the two countries (regardless of which two are being discussed). The foreign exchange is an open market and the value of currency changes from one second to the next. So the $550 USD it takes to buy the Hitachi MV12V in Europe today might not be enough tomorrow or you might go home with change. The FOREX market will decide that for us. If you take a look at companies like Caterpillar. Their stock price has gone up about $20/share over the past 12 months and the primary reason for this is that the USD has been losing value against the other major currencies of the world. This makes their product line less expensive for people oversees and increases their export sales. So they are selling more stuff to people in other countries at lower prices (mesured in the currency of that country) but are still comming home with the same number of USD’s in their pockets. There is a down side to this. As the value of the USD declines against other currencies then it takes more of our USD’s for us to buy their stuff. The macroecnomics in play here are much broader than how much the guy on the asembly line takes home. It is a factor in the equation right along with local interest rates, CPI, GDP, oil prices, consumer confidence, PPI, ISM (in the US), Tankan Survey (Japan), retail sales, trade balance, and the list goes on.

I’ll bet our Canadian friends remember not too long ago that the buck they had in their pockets turned into 50 cents after they crossed the boarder. Do it today and that buck is still pretty darn near a buck. In fact there were recently a couple of days, if you picked the right day, you actually crossed over with a little more than a buck.

Realizing what I just said had aboslutely nothing to do with Festool, it’s still something to consider in this conversation.

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

and… no offense taken here Niki and the same goes to Mark. We each have things that we are passionate about and are entitled to our opinions about them.

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

I’m not very knowledgeable on the economics/financial stuff but I do know that some days my paycheck takes me to the dollar store only and some days I can make a trip to Lee Valley :)

Ah the joys of opportunity: paycheck / living expenses / purchasing choices.

In the end it all boils down to : what you want to do with the tool; what your personal preferences are; and what you want to spend on the products.

To each his own …. and the results (no matter what tools you use) can be seen in the 2865 projects posted here on LumberJocks.com!! :)

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

About the Dollar – Euro exchange rate, have a look at this site, its the Festool Germany (translated) site,

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.festool.de/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfestool%2Bde%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Please click on “Mill” and on the new page, click on the “Domino peg milling cutter DF 500” a new page will open and you will see the price in Germany…680 Euro that are around $800 (1 Euro = 1.2 Dollars).

Again as I mentioned, not even in my “wish list”

Regards
niki

Too funny! Here we started on a post about Fedstool, and encded up where? International trade!
I am intrigued and captivated by the Festool technology and workmanship, but balk at the price! I hope the loose tenon joinery will go the path of the bisquit joinery. Lamello started with a “lock” on that markwt, but now we find inexpensive, yet quality, bisquit joiners everywhere.

Just like portable calculators. I remember spending over $100.00 in the 70’s big money then) for a TI SR-10 that did square roots, sqaures, and the usual functions. Today I can get all that in a $ 0.99 calculator from Habor Freight or Walmart! Maybe Festool’s loose tenon joinery system is headed that way. I hope so! I will not pay $700 for a toy I wil use sporadically. If I were a professional that made tenon joints daily, I would jump at the convenience. But, I wil continue to use my drill press and router to do any tenon joints I do.

God Bless,
Hawg

-- Saving barnwood from the scrapyards

”I think that we can sum up the whole Festool vs Non Festool very simply – ”Suit yourself and let the rest be pleased” If your budget can stand it and you want it – go for it. If not, buy what you want and can afford.”
- Cajunpen (Bill)

There’s the conclusion of the matter in a nutshell.

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

LOL… if you want to change the subject just invite me to the conversation…..

it’s a little worse than that Niki… the EUR/USD was at 1.41 this afternoon. So if you want to make some cash all ya gotta do is buy a bunch of Domino’s in the US for $700 a peice then sell them in Europe for 680 Euro’s convert your Euros back into US dollars and you’ll pocket $260 on each one that ya sell. Mmmmm I wonder what it costs to ship a Domino to Europe?????

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

—-LOL….and now I know what’s wrong with my way of thinking. I never could find enough room to conclude the matter in a nutshell and still be pleased….so I split the shell and started growing and thinking outside the box….

The funny thing was once outside the box, I found there were other’s of like mind and we still disagreed….but we disagreed outside the box. Oh well, inside the nutshell or outside the nutshell, it’s still a small world.

GODSPEED,
Frank

-- --frank, NH, http://frank.wordpress.com/

This is really why I hate topics like this. Well, not so much topic as much as it’s opening sentence. It’s meant to start controversy more than provide information. This same topic has been beaten to death over the last year on many woodworking forums. I suspect that topic author knows this, yet was not content and felt that the froth needed to be whipped up here as well.

Frank nailed it. Cajunpen nailed it.

You know why there are so many ways of joining wood? Because they all work. Use the one you feel like for the application you require.

Enjoy!

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Hi Tom,

I’m the guy who started this post. Yep, I kinda thought there would be a number of opinions about Festool on both sides of the fence as there is in the aisles of a tool store when Festool is discussed. And I really wanted to understand the market for the product. Dan was very helpful in this regard, early on. BUT, I NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD COME TO THIS! And I never intended it to stray as far as it has.

Being new to the site, I don’t want to develop a reputation of churning things up, as you have suggested.

-- Bob

I wouldn’t be concerned Bob. I’ve been following the comments on this since you posted it and quite frankly, unless I’m missing something, all have been quite civil and interesting when addressing your actual topic. If I paid $400 or $500 for a drill I’d probably defend my decision to buy it with some emotion too.

Perhaps I’m overly simplifying, but the only thing I see on here that seems to have “whipped up” some controversy is some guy who’s not happy with what he’s getting paid at work and took it out on poor niki. That is actually where it went off-topic and things got ummmm, testy.

Just don’t want you to ever feel like you shouldn’t bring up a woodworking blog topic on the site Bob. If people don’t like what’s being said there’s and easy solution. Move on to the next topic.

Have a great day!

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Tennis players.

And, no worries Bob. I’ve just seen this one beaten to death for over a year. I’m just over sensitive to the subject. Please take no offense to my comments. The thought of being criticized for something as stupid as choice in power tools just chafes me.

I look forward to seeing more of your projects, and reading more of your posts.

Tom

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Golfers. pfffft. ;-)

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

—-and Bob;
....also if you ask around….what do I know any-way, we’re all just tossing our two cents against the wall seeing who comes closest….course I never could figure out which side of the wall I was standing on….LOL

So after all is done and said, glad to have you around here….

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank

-- --frank, NH, http://frank.wordpress.com/

Maybe I’m a nut case but I don’t see anything wrong with a healty debate. It gives me the opportunity to see things from someone else’s point of view and discover something I might not have considered previously. It gives me a chance to re-think my position and more than once has caused me to change my opinon as a result of having learned something I didn’t know before. The key is to enter the conversation with an open mind and not take it personal when someone has an opinion different than your own. I’d like to thank EVERYONE for their opinions on this subject, whether you are passionate about them or not. If no one ever tried anything new then we’d all still be cuting boards with an axe.

I can imagine a bunch of guys sitting around the camp fire round about 1929 saying this Stihl guy is nuts. Why would I spend all that money on this crazy saw that I have to put gas in and then when it breaks I gotta go to him to have it fixed.

This particular conversation has served to confirm my opinion on Festool. It is extremely high quality stuff and does exactly what it’s meant to. If I could justify the expense I’d own one of everything they make. In the mean time I have to sit here and envy those of you that do own the stuff while I figure out a way to justify buying my own.

Thanks again for the conversation and your opinions!

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

Hi Shaun,
—-LOL, even though I use a chainsaw….I’m still one of those guys cutting boards with a broadax….just got to love it….

GODSPEED,
Frank

-- --frank, NH, http://frank.wordpress.com/

If anyone’s REALLY RILED UP over all of this discussion——-Put on your favorite tune & Dance!

Either that, or get out in that woodshop and CUT SOMETHING UP!!——Wood only please….

We All Gotta release the tension….somehow, otherwise we’ll all join Mark with the blood-pressure meds. ;-D

-- Lane Custom Guitars and Basses

Sorry Niki, I understand , I thought you were from the UK? I guess when you posted your gripper alternitave
you were talking about saw gaurds.

Chip, The problem I have is Always hearing how US workers are underworked and overpaid, and lead a life of luxury, I work hard for my money and make a decent living and love my job! never said I’m not happy with my work!
Mark

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

Wow.

-- Dust collectors suck.