Table saw Fence needed, which one to get for old Crafstman saw?

Unless it has sentimental meaning to you I would replace the whole saw because a fence will cost more than the saw is worth. If this is an option I would take a look at grizzly saws.

-- Jim from Heirloom Woodshop Southern Oregon

I went back and forth for some time to sell this one and get a new one, but this saw has cast iron extensions, cast top, and a good 3/4 horsepower motor.

In any case, I’m too deep in at this point to turn around and buy new. I’ve seen some people on here with some after market fences that seemed pretty decent, but can’t find them right now. Hopefully some that have put after market fences on their saws can comment on things the like/dislike so I can learn more and make a better purchase.

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

I have to agree with Jim. I know the process that you going through to get a good cut. I followed the same routine on my Craftsman saw for over 10 years until I just got tired of it and upgraded to a new saw in April. I don’t know how many times I have kicked myself in the ensuing 6 month time frame for not doing it sooner.

But if you are set on keeping the saw Jamie has blogged the process that he used to install a Delta T2 fence on his 50’s Craftsman saw. The fence runs just under $200 from Amazon.com. This fence is essentially a biesemeyer clone and a number of members on board here have upgraded their Craftsman saws with this fence. It used to be sold at Lowe’s but their website does not list it anymore. If you have a Lowe’s retail store nearby they may have some stocked on the shelves.

The miter gauge is another add-on. I have the Incra 1000SE and it suits me just fine. Another good one is the Osborne miter gauge, which will run close to $150.

Whatever decision that you make it will be the right one. The weakest part of the Craftsman saw is the fence. Replacing it should alleviate some of your headaches that come from using the saw.

-- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grammyc/3994317876/
This is mine with a Grizzly Shop Fox fence. I love it and it works dead accurate. I did have to drill and tap the top, but hey yea, thats the fun. I also upgraded the motor and added link belt and machined pulleys. Quiet as a mouse and accurate as hell.

-- Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy-May all your dovetails fit tight and right the first time

Yeah, this comes up over and over again. A few facts for ya…

1. If you have an old Craftsman 50’s saw, 10”, belt drive, cast iron – there is nothing wrong with these saws. They were made by Emerson.
2. Before they went to granite tops, the best rated contractor’s saw being sold was the Ridgid 3650, 3660. They were made by (drum roll please…) Emerson.
3. On the web you can find pictures of the bottom of the saw table and trunnions for both the old-style Craftsman saws and the newer, highly rated Ridgid 3650 or 3660 saws. Compare – THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!
4. The biggest difference between old Craftsman saws and the Ridgid 3650, 3660 saws is the fence. Ridgid just spent the time to design a better fence.

Currently, I am running a 60-70’s era Craftsman saw with a Ridgid AC1036 fence. See it here. Works like a champ for me. I use the rule on the fence constantly and never remeasure it before cutting. Unfortunately, the AC1036 no longer seems to be made. The equivalent was sold by Sears for a while as the Align-a-rip 2412 – same design, probably bought from Ridgid by Sears. Unfortunately, it no longer seems to be sold by Sears. You may find either on the bay. Highly recommended.

The Delta T2 has been installed on older Craftsman saws with a lot of success. Search for it here on LJ’s. You can buy it brand-new for under $200. I am not a big fan of the Beisemeyer design, but it is worlds better than the original Craftsman design.

Now, you can listen to others here tell you that you have to spend $600-$1000 for a new saw to fix all your problems but truth is that old Craftsman is a fine saw except for the fence. You can bring it up to snuff for a lot less than a new saw (less than $200 in my case) and it will probably last another 50-75 years.

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

I too have a craftsman ts been there done that with the old craftsman fence. 2 years ago i replaced it with a delta t2 I love it amazon has them on sale now for about $185.00 I’m sure you will be pleased with it.You will have to drill some holes for the rails.It took me less then a hour to have it up in running. hope this helps you

-- Dan, New Hampshire

Thanks for all the good information! Is there any functional differences between the different fences that I should be aware of? Something I might like but just don’t know about? Something that would be annoying? Keep in muns what I’ve used…I’ve seen some fences that lock down both front and back (vega I think?) this seems like it might be cumbersome. I’ve seen good things here about the delta T2, but how much does one “pay for the name” on these things?

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

The Vega is a front locker similar to the other T-square designs, but it uses a cylindrical front rail vs a square or rectangular tube . It does have a rear hook to prevent lifting of the tail, but not a rear clamping device. The T2 is a great bang for the buck. The Vega can be when it’s on sale. The Biese is excellent but can be very expensive. The Jet Exacta II, HTC, and Shop Fox Classic fences are similar to the Biese Commercial fence.

For functional differences, be aware that the advantage of a good steel t-square type front lockers in general is how simple and goof proof the system is. Once dialed in, they have very dependable parallelism to the blade, and are very easy to use. Also be aware that the front lockers will show more movement if you yank on the tail end of that long lever, a pointless test that some like to perform….the real world lateral forces are just in front of the blade. If you apply pressure at that point, you should have no noticeable movement. The dual locking fences won’t move if you yank the tail end, but are less dependable about locking down parallel to the blade. Most of the steel Biese type fences have a fairly similar design, but some of the newer ones do offer some updates.

Note that the Mule Cab Accusquare and the Shop Fox original heavy duty fence (not the SF Classic or Aluma Classic) need to slide to the end of the rails to be removed. Most of the others just lift off easily.

So, I’ve been doing a lot more research on fence and rail systems, and I think I’m able to ask more intelligent questions now.

I have the following on my list:

Shop Fox Classic (224)
Vega pro 40 (261)
Mule Aquasquare M1040 (179)

Shop Fox Aluma-Classic (190 plus shipping)
Delta T2 (149)

The numbers in parantheses are the cheapest prices I could find online, including shipping.

Now, I have separated my list of 5 fences into 2 categories based on the length of the rail. The first three appear to be able to rip 40” to the Right. The last two rip 30 inches to the right. Is the longer length something that is really important? I know in the past I have had problems cutting up 4×8 sheets of plywood because the rail was too short (older craftsman saw). Is the 40” to the right just excessive though for my work? I don’t usually make a habit of doing large projects, but it is nice to buy large pieces of plywood instead of those little chunks.

I’m leaning towards the Mule M1040 because it seems to have a really good “bang for the buck”, but no rear rail concerns me slightly – mainly because I’m a bit ignorant and don’t know what (if any) problems this may occur.

The Delta I hear will take a large amount of drilling (I’m ok with that though), but is only 30 inches to the right limiting myself?

Is there anything with any of these that I potentially WOULDN’T like? I know I’ve read people that have liked all of them, so I doubt it, but I since I am a newbie I want to hear more from people more in the know.

I’m also trying to keep costs down, so the Vega will take some convincing that it is that much better than another option to justify the cost. As always, thanks again for the help.

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

You may want to check you local craigslist for table saws with one of the better fences. I just purchased a craftsman/emerson that came with the aligna-rip for under $100. Depending if you have storage room, you may be able to get a complete saw with fence and end up with plenty of spare parts. I missed a craftsman/emerson with a high end fence for $250 and some dado blades by couple hours.

Just another idea if budget overrides one of the options.

As eengineer said, these older emerson (113 craftsman) are very viable.

Steve.

I’ve checked on craigslist for some time, that was part of the reason for my refurbishing the old saw – I couldn’t find anything decent in the area.

I’ve got 5 choices, so I think I’m going to do the “A or B” eye doctor thing.

Shop Fox Aluma or Delta T2??

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

Perhaps to answer my previous question I should ask this one…..does it really matter that much on material? Aluminum vs. steel? I’m actually leaning towards the Mule M1040 because I can get it the length I think I want, and a good price of it also.

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

I went with the ShopFox (the one UnionLabel suggested).

I looked at the Mule M1040 (I have their miter gauge fence and it is A-OK), but decided on the ShopFox anyway … I just like the weight and feel of steel over aluminum.

-- The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary. -- Vincent T. Lombardi

My $.02:

Several years ago Sears was selling a Beisemeyer (sp?) clone upgrade fence for $75.00; I got one on sale for $15.00 and it works wonderfully.
An older Emerson Electric Craftsman branded TS has the same trunion and other major components as
the new Ridgid TS’s sold for about $500.00—the parts have the same ID #s cast onto them.
There’s nothing wrong with these older saws except maybe an underpowered motor for hard maple and/or oak.

Gary

-- Gary, Florida

I do like the shop fox fence, but also like the micro adjust on the Vega. Do guys really use that? Also, is the extra rail length really worth the extra money (30” vs 40” to the right)? I also have a small shop – for now – and don’t know if the length will be too much of a pain in the butt, or if it will be really useful later on, moving in 8 months.

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

The Mule is lighter aluminum and not quite as beefy as the Vega, T2, and both SF fences….since all are front lockers, the aluminum is more prone to flexing. The T2 is considered by many to be the best bang for the buck in aftermarket fences, me included, especially at $150…it’s essentially a “Biese Lite”....the SF Aluma Classic is similar but has t-slots. The SF Classic is more similar to the Biesemeyer Commercial fence, and is heavier duty than the others. The Vega works well and the microadjustment works nicely, so yes I used it when I had it, but I get by fine without it too. Extra rip capacity is nice, but I wouldn’t want to sacrifice the every day performance to get it. Longer tube stock can be added to the T2 if you want more capacity, or if your saw is left tilting you won’t need left side capacity, so you can shift the rails right for added right side capacity, regardless of which fence you choose.

It’s a matter of preference, but I’ve owned or used all the fences on your list. My favorites in order of preference would be:
Vega
SF Classic
SF Aluma Classic/Delta T2
Mule

I really appreciate the helpful insight! I think the reason why the Vega was high on my list was for the micro-adjust. It seemed like a nice feature that I haven’t had before. However, at $261 it is very high on my price range so that was definitely a hesitation point.

Are the T-slots in some of the fences useful also? or are they just a selling point? I’ve never used a table saw that had t-slots on the fence, so I don’t even know what it might be useful for.

If as you say you wouldn’t want to sacrifice every-day usefulness for added rip capacity, I guess this takes the length out of a position of high importance.. I don’t really know if my saw is left tilt or not though, the handle to tilt the blade is on the left side????? I did some more looking also, and it seems as though the standard way of mounting would be just fine for the space I have compared to the size of rails: (this is about what it would look like) http://www.instructables.com/id/S9RFAPTFPBKZ6OG/

From what I can find, the SF Classic rails cut only 25” to the right of the blade, so that is definitely getting smaller than what I want. I could go larger, but then price gets above the Vega fence (but the Vega is larger). Even a shorter Vega rail is still more than the SF classic though.

Now that I’ve eliminated the top two levels and the lower level of your preference list, I’m back to SF Aluma Classic or Delta T2. It looks like the SF Aluma would be about $40 more plus shipping, so is the added price worth it?

Sorry for the rambling post, I’m trying to talk myself into buying the best one I can afford comfortably. Since I’ve never worked with or even seen any of these in person, it’s a bit harder to choose without your help.

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

This thread is great because I am in the exact same spot right now. So thanks everyone!

I am leaning towards the T2. Seems to be good bang for the buck.

This link may be helpful on how to attach a T2 to a craftsman saw:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Retrofitting_A_Delta_T2_Fence_to_a_Craftsman_Table/

I too have a Craftsman 10” saw from the late 1940’s. Would not think of replacing it with a new import saw. It works great and the vintage 1hp induction motor is fantastic. I have access to new Powermatics, Saw Stops, & Lagunas. I mill 8/4 stock routinely and my home job Craftsman is all the saw I need. Some day when I have a bigger place, maybe I’ll spring for a replacement. Maybe an old Unisaw or Oliver. But absolutely no way will it be an import machine. The quality of the old machines can’t be beat, and the is no character in new machines. The machines don’t make the wood worker but they certainly make the shop. You’ll be very happy once you have your C-man saw tuned and get a decent fence on her.

Newer is not necessarily better.
Jon

Jon: I have a Jet that I am happy with for now, but if I were to make a change, the only one that I would give serious consideration to is the new Delta Unisaw (made in the USA). If I couldn’t afford a new Unisaw, I would either stay with the Jet or shop for an older Delta, Rockwell or Oliver and rehab it.

-- The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary. -- Vincent T. Lombardi

Vince, those are great machines and I too would love to have the space and means to take in one of those fine machines. I am in an environment where I see a lot of people take the path toward new import tooling. The marketeers have convinced us we need laser assisted drilling, routing, and sawing. All the while producing a product that will be in the dump in 15 years. The business model has changed as has the consumers demand for exceptional quality. Easy credit and cheap tools has allowed woodworking access to more people possibly, but at what cost. No one buys a tool these days with the thought that this is a heirloom that the grandkids will cherish, save a Lie Nielson hand plane or the like. Not to hijack the thread. i think the original poster has been steered on target by keeping, tuning, maintaining what he has over replacement with modern mediocrity. Not that all things modern are inferior, just that those things that are truely of exceptional quality are often priced out of reach for Joe Average.

Example, The old Delta 17” Drill Press is absolutely superior to any thing you buy today. Their bearings are preloaded, a process that priced them out of existence. I bought mine for $75. Deals on superior quality goods are out there. Especially in the economically turbulent times of the day.

Jon

nonikname-Thanks for the vote of confidence that I did the right thing by refurbishing my old TS. I was a bit nervous when I started the project that I could have just bought new (or used, but new to be), and saved money. It seems, however, that most agree that I did the right thing by refurbishing it.

On the issue of the fence….I finally pulled the trigger on a fence tonight. I went with the Delta T2. I know it’s going to be a lot of work just getting it mounted, but it’s steel and from the looks of it should be more than large enough for my shop at this time. Maybe in the future I can get some longer rails, but this will do me just fine for now.

I also just got done putting the saw back together tonight, so I’ll post pictures later.

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

bues – You can tell which way your saw tilts just from looking at the direction the front wheel travels when it’s titled:

Left Tilt:

Right Tilt

If it’s left tilt you can get away with sliding the fence’s capacity to favor the right side, though it may end up needing some support if you go out far enough. It shouldn’t be hard to squeeze 40” out of the T2 rails. Be sure to leave enough rail to the left of the blade to accomodate the t-square width, which will probably be in the range of 8” to the left of the blade when the fence is set at 0”. On my last two saws, I’ve left the front angle bracket in it’s stock position, and simply cantilivered the rail a bit further over to the right…in each case the distance was the equivalent of one bolt hole so I didn’t even need to redrill…I just reinstalled one less bolt and it’s still plenty strong.

Enjoy your new fence, and put the $40 you saved towards a nice blade!

My saw is definitely left tilt. My new fence is supposed to arrive tomorrow in the mail, so I’ll take a look at everything to see if I can move it all over just a little bit. I’ll update when I get a chance to work on it some more.

-- - Ryan -- Round Lake, IL

I have an OLD taiwan contractor saw I bought 20 years ago for 50 bucks. Had a copy of the OLD delta fence. Hated that saw so much I almost quit woodworking because of it. Finally decided the problem was the fence and I looked at the Biesmeyer (sp?) T square fences at my local emporium and decided I could build for lots less.

A week later, and another fifty bucks lighter, I had a T square fence that has been on it ever since. Dead accurate and has a 60” inch capacity. Have since built several for friends.

Any old saw that is built decently can be made to cut like a unisaw with just the addition of a good fence.

Mike

-- Just my 2 cents worth

I concur Mike. A premium blade/cutter, and good fixturing in the case of a TS, a solid guide; then most machine tools can be tuned to perform their task well. Certainly Krenov or Maloof could of made spectacular things with Ryobi tools. But lets just be real; Ryobi aint heirloom quality nor is just about any thing made these days and how well they hold that tune, and how long the modern companies support that item is another story. The old model of manufacturing and business was outrageously expensive and meant to last a life time. All the mass of cast iron generally translates to a perceptible smoothness. Which all things considered equal; means a smoother cut/slice/hole.

You drink this Koolaid long enough the mere mention of that H@#$)% Fr!@#$% store will cause nausea. Opps I must run to the bathroom.

Jon