"They" say we are out of the recession?

That’s what I hear from Chairman Obama too. Wait until he nationalizes shipping too.

-- If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free! PJ O'Rourke

The contractors and architects that I work for tell me their clients can not get loans . This is while my tax dollars keep the banks bloated and afloat .

-- rob

I was in Singapore for couple days in February 2006 and the port was a constant state motion. It is funny that Singapore is just a port that transfers the shiploads and doesn’t really produce any amount of goods. The country is very small actually and has all kinds of interesting stories.

Weather was great and from a tall building all I could see to the horizon were huge freighters.

Was told, at that time, there was a seasonal shortage of 40 foot steel containers.

Steve.

Maybe had we not spent $864 billion dollars on a useless, fear mongering war that continues to drain our coffers we’d have a few extra ducats in the coffers.

And no one said we were “out” of the recession, I’d like to see where your information came from, please post a link.

And FYI, all of the larger banks have repaid their loans, to the tune of about $39 billion dollars in interest (read profit to the fed), admittedly however, some of the smaller banks might fail and leave us with that burden, so if anything, TARP is a wash. See AP or NYT for a complete report on this issued at the beginning of this month).

What I am saying is, let’s keep calm and not use hearsay or personal experiences when dealing with global issues. Do some research (outside of Fox News) and try not to trend or localize worldwide patterns on a friends brother or your mother in law’s advise :)

As for health care Tom, I have a daughter that needed open heart surgery at 3mo of age which bankrupted us during a rough time. And just recently, even though I make 6 figures, a recent hospital stay (with good insurance) cost us 14k out of pocket, which I cannot pay. Like I said above, I try not to use personal experice when learning about these issues, the fact is that 67% of bankruptcies in the US are related to health care (I can send a link if you want the source). Is this who we are as Americans? Do we let people go bankrupt or die for a few extra dollars in taxes? If it is, shame on us.

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Wow Interesting

-- Jim from Heirloom Woodshop Southern Oregon

I’ll steer clear of JC’s post and add that around here in the midwest where the housing market was a giant part of our economy that it has screached to a complete halt. There are subdivisions for 40 miles down my street that had just been started last year. Many of them have the sewer and water ran, and some even have curbs and roads with a few models and maybe a home or two. There hasn’t been any activity with the exception of one single subdivision which built two homes this year. This is a direct reflection of our economy and shows that it’s far from over. People with money are spending it, but not on new houses. They are spending it on upgrading their existing homes, which is why I am not framing houses anymore and switched gears to home remodeling.

The union workers are feeling this the most as they are the most expensive workforce in the country and are only geared up for mass production track houses. I had to cross a picket line just to work yesterday, and will be doing it again on Monday. All I say is “sorry folks, but you made your own bed, now lay in it. I need to work to feed my family.”

-- Julian, Park Forest, IL

Carver, I hope your daughter is OK. I have no problem helping Americans that need help with health care but I don’t believe that it is the governments job to take over health care and force the American taxpayer into a system that is run by the government. The government isn’t efficient in running squat. We send money to countries that hate us and want to kill us. Take that money and use it for our legal citizens and only those that need it. Take care of our citizens first before one penny goes overseas.

The tarp bailout is another waist of taxpayers money. Let the free enterprise system work. Yes there are crooks out there and they should be punished along with the politicians that saw it and let it happen. If a company uses bad practises and it fails then I say good riddance but don’t take money out of my pocket to cover their poor choices. The biggest problem we have is this belief that someone owes us something as well as the instant gratification syndrome. No one wants to save for anything, they just go out and buy it on credit with no money down and then when they can’t pay for it they want to blame someone else for their bad luck. Well its time for people to accept responsibility for their Lott in life and quit looking for the government (taxpayers) to bail them out for poor choices they’ve made. Again I believe we as a nation should help those that can’t help themselves but I do not want to see us become a welfare state.

Get the government out of my life and quit stealing my hard earned money!

-- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Mike D.

What good is international trade? America has been on the losing end of international trade for decades!!! Can anyone tell me how it benefits us to buy 4 times as much from China than they buy from us? Think about it, $4 of our money goes overseas for every dollar that comes back. Idle boats in the Asian ports strengthen America’s economy every day. Rejoice.

-- If Stradivarius was alive today, he'd be using Gorilla Glue.

If we’re staying on the topic of international trade then I suggest you try and imagine the cost of everything you buy on a daily basis if it were all made here.

There are some jobs that frankly we can do without. If Americans made say, flatware or some other small durable good noone could afford to live! If we didn’t have immigrant labor we’d pay $3 for an orange! I suppose I am on the wrong site to be arguing this point as most woodworkers seem to be of the nationalist, neo-con, faux news watching, conspiracy theory loving, immigrant (remember we’re all immigrants) hating variety.

I believe that most of the opinions above are slightly ignorant of the facts and the big picture. It’s easy to say “let the banks fail” and “the government can’t run anything” but its hard to defend those positions from a point of statistical relevance, ie, there is not much proof to support those claims. Is there excess and waste in gvmt? Sure. Are some people greedy scumbags? Sure. But if you believe that the majority of Americans are hard working, honest people then you have a very different outlook on life and government in general.

Healthy skepticism of gvmt is honorable and even necessary, but when theories, what ifs and nonfactual assumptions are used to make policy, it only hurts us as a whole.

Isolating ourselves from the world and building walls is NOT the way to prosperity. Becoming a global community free from nationalistic, dogmatic and religious barriers is the only way forward. It’s just a shame that the only thing standing in our way is us…..

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

So JC, the only reason anyone would disagree with you is because of ignorance? And you say don’t let personal experiences influence you? So, should I let Michael Moore tell me the real deal instead, and just be one of his sheep regardless of my real world experience? That might work for you, but not for me. It’s obvious you are very prejudiced and have already written off any comments anyone will make that are not like your own, so you enjoy your life with blinders on. You keep on thinking you know better than everyone on here and enjoy yourself and your hatred of your fellow Americans.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

Well said Comrade JC.

-- Gio, Gifts4thee.com

An old saying goes – “Don’t discuss politics and religion if you want to stay friends,” so I will just get back to reviewing the craft related blogs.

-- Woodworking.....My small slice of heaven!

Typical socialist thinking, you have to call people names that don’t agree with your way of thinking.

I have no issue with immigrants coming here but there is a process in place to become a citizen and it should be followed. Statistics don’t always tell the true story because statistics can and are manipulated all the time depending on what you want them to show. The difference between the CBO and our liberal congress and the White house in regards to the cost estimates of health care is a prime example.

A large portion of our produce is imported and that is why it’s as cheap as it is not because of an immigrant. Our farmers and ranchers are being chocked out so we can stop global warming (that hasn’t been proven) or save some obscure insect from extinction. At one time we were the largest food producer in the world and our farmers and ranchers were prosperous but then the government came in and tilted the table on them with crop manipulation and by the way we send tax dollars to countries to benefit there agriculture enterprises and have driven independent farmers out of business. I believe in conservation but lets be reasonable and do it in a way that makes sense.

No one is talking about Isolating ourselves but we should take care of ourselves first.

-- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Mike D.

Indeed Reggie.

Amazing how intertwined this philosophy is with religion. Anyone with the capacity for belief in something without evidence is also predisposed to thinking that the world is evil, the government is the enemy and any evidence to the contrary is “the work of the devil” or some other force. Even mulitple studies by independent agencies are somehow tainted as is the entire media world. Those Fox news nuts honestly believe that EVERY other major news outlet is a puppet of the “regime” and that Fox news is the shining becon of honesty in a sea of deceit and treachery. What a farce. Wake up and think about it (no, I don’t like Micheal Moore either, I think he’s just as bad in the other direction).

Wait, were we discussing politics or religion? It matters not as the lines are typically blurred on the right…..

And in case you haven’t noticed, America is NOT a democracy. Socialism and Communism are simply words the same old, tired, rightist propaganda engines use to try to scare Americans away from changing the status quo. Want to be responsible for meat or drug safety? Hell, lets do away with the FDA while we’re at it. We need government like it or not. What alarmist nonsense….Like we’re going to wake up to a Stalinist tomorrow or something…..oh, wait, you probably believe that too….

I get PM’s all the time on this site when I speak up, the vast majority of them positive but unwilling to back me up in public because the majority of woodworkers for some reason are in crazy camp, but not saying anything is worse IMO….Imagine that, a significant of your fellow WW’s on this site are afraid that you will no longer respect them or consider them part of the family because they think differently than you…..I still respect you all as woodworkers, but I won’t be a part of this nonsense….

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Where to start, JC? I too had a daughter who had a mitral valve repaired before the age of two. She is now 15 and 1st in her HS class, and first chair flute in the band. We had known since her birth that she had the murmur, but at her 2 yr checkup they found it had gotten much worse. Within four days, surgery was completed and she spent a week in intensive care and another week in the recovery ward. This was 13 yrs ago, and my PRIVATE health insurance picked up the vast majority of the bill. I know that the surgery would not have happened this quickly or efficiently with government run “healthcare”. My personal physician has already told his patients that he is retiring (at age 50) if the “public” option is passed. Not because he is ready, but because he came from England and doesn’t want to work again under a government run healthcare system. He has “been there, done that.” The idea that public and private health plans can co-exist for more than a few years is ridiculous. The only reason our postal system is even half efficient is that they are prevented by statute from making a profit, so any analogies to healthcare are based on false logic.

Also, only liberals seem to feel comforted by applying general labels like neo-con to those who do not agree with them. There is nothing neo about me. I AM conservative and proud! I am all for legal immigration, but what is it about the word “illegal” that you don’t see an issue with?

How do you see conservatives as being more prone to believing in conspiracy theories? I argue with a co-worker all the time who’s favorite website is infowars.com. And, it seems to me the liberals like Oliver Stoned and Micheal Less have the conspiracy theory market sewn up.

I am glad your daughter recovered well and I think we are both blessed, yes I say again blessed!

-- If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free! PJ O'Rourke

JC, are you really schizophrenic or what? In your latest post, you said people who believe in something without evidence are wrong, but in your earlier post you said believe the news media (except Fox) and don’t believe your personal experiences. Also, you were the one who stirred things up here, just as you did a while back on Allison’s post, then reacted to everyone as if they were attacking you and said we needed to stick to woodworking. I guess JC is like a box of chocolates….

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

If the Depression (not recession) is over, take a vote of all those that are still out of work…
... that will give you the Real answer…

IMHO…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

I know that the surgery would not have happened this quickly or efficiently with government run “healthcare”.

How do you KNOW this Tom? I challenge you to prove this statement, because I think its disingenuous.

What I am saying is that none of us KNOW anything either way. We need to look for improvement. Of course we will disagree on the how’s and how soons, but the fact is that good people are going broke and dying because of our heathcare system, its a fact that is documented by all sides. Why it’s happening is open for debate, but noone who has done a modicum of research seriously thinks our system is in a good state.

Also, only liberals seem to feel comforted by applying general labels like neo-con to those who do not agree with them. _

I don’t even know how to address this…..applying a label while calling me out on my labeling ?? Odd.

Dale, I NEVER stated to believe the media, that would be foolish! What I said was to listen to one lone voice without even getting the evidence would be crazy.

Would you use a drug that has never been studied to death and undergone double blind and long term studies? Of course not, yet many people get their news from one source or one article and go off to pollute society with unverified or anecdotal nonsense.

As far as woodworking goes, I can seperate it from this debate, what I mean by my “won’t be a part of it” statement was that I will continue to voice my opinion as long as people see fit to push their agendas (Bob once again). Let’s not be coy….

As for Joe’s post, well this is part of the problem. Why would I want to gather the state of our economic condition from some unemployed man on the street? He may feel the pain, but knows nothing of global finance and the complexities of foreign trade or workforce fluctuations. Once again, I’m still looking for that link where Obama declared the recession over….

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Okay JC, so I guess I jumped into something between you and Bob. I’ll stay out of it. Sorry for getting personal. I’ll try to stick to woodworking myself for a while (like I said, I’ll try). Believe it or not, I have friends I’ve known for many years with more liberal views than you and although we’ve had many heated discussions, we still mostly get along.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

I live in a resort area where new construction is the main industry. When the housing market fell we fell with it.
Builders going bankrupt, cabinet and woodworking shops going under, mom and pop stores going out, more houses here for sale than I’ve ever seen that the so call wealthy own for vacation homes. For the last two months our weekly paper seems to be staying in business off foreclosures. We had a good size Hispanic population here and they’re leaving…no work. I talked to my friends here that also have cabinet shops…not good and a few will fold this winter if they get no more business. We’ve done work this past year that we never would have had time for before but it paid our bills and we’re busy into December. I think the main thing that saved us is I own my building and the property it sits on and I own all my equipment, my home and my vehicles so I have very little overhead.
Last year in my business…my customers told me….3 foreclosures…2 bankrupts…bank will not loan us the money to finish our new home…we’re going to sit on it and see what happens.
If the recession is over it must be somewhere else. It’s definitely not here and with my builder and cabinet shop friends in Atlanta and lot’s of other places.

bruc

-- "Give The Gift of Life, Adopt A Child"

I watch Fox news here in scotland it’s very pro Israeli anti IRAN comic agenda is almost laughable.It seems that Israel can have illegal nuclear weapons supplied by the good old USA illegaly but not anyone else the israeli’s broke all the rules and have them ,but not good enough for the IRANIANs .Don’t get me wrong no one should have them but lets keep the playing field fair.As long as israel keeps stealing land and bull dozing palestinian houses without right or compensation there will never be peace would USA stand for anyone coming in and tossing Americans out of their homes and building multi storie settlements on USA soil I know they wouldn’t. And the way the fox hate team almost openly deride and hate OBAMA thats not journalism thats just preaching their right wing zionist agenda .
Journalists ( if thats what anyone could call those on fox news) they should be impartial if they want to discuss things with the public all they do on fox is to be very pro Bush and against obama.I think Carver is right sorry my 2 cents we here in Europe were glad to see the back of bush and we welcome Obama with open arms thats an outside view from outwith USA.I never met anyone here who was in favour of Bush and his cronies warmongers every one. Roll on healthcare for USA it is the best idea since the sliced bread.Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

Why am I not surprised that Alistair would be promoting socialized health care and bashing the US right again? Just about as predictable as rain in springtime.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

Who’s bashing the U.S.A I am just telling the truth re the relationship with America and certainly with Bush and israel .It seems the israelis can virtually do as they please and we must sit back and say nothing if anyone questions what they do they are imediatelly labeled anti semetic ( pathetic), and soclaism is not comunism thats what you guys can’t grasp. Socialism in some instances is necessary to keep an eye on the poorest in society what on earth is wrong with that? Who knows, maybe one day you or a mamber of your family will need social care ! And what’s wrong with helping those less fortunate than yourself.You don’t seem to mid giving to those more fortunate than yourself re fantastic sums of money paid regularily to Israel and help with latest militery toys Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

If you are getting your “news” from the mainstream media, you will never know what is truly going on in the world around you. When the same parent corporations own networks that express opposing views, it does nothing more than keep the masses busy arguing mute points while a bigger agenda gets pushed through.
Economics 101 will tell you that it is fundamentally impossible for any economy to experience a “jobless recovery”. We have not even scratched the surface of how dire a situation our nation is in. My only hope is that more Americans wake-up and prepare for the reality before it is too late.

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ You can be tired, or you can be broke, but you should never be tired and broke.

Alistair, I hope you can receive and watch MSNBC if you really want to see bias. The President granted interviews last Sunday to all the major networks AND the Sunday morning talking head shows, but FOX was conspicuously absent from the list of the favored. At least FOX does grant the “opposition” some time. You don’t see that kind of equal time out of MSNBC, ABC, CBS, etc. Do you wonder why FOX has viewership greater than the rest combined? There are a lot more conservatives out here in what the elites on both coasts derisively call “flyover country” than there are liberals.

-- If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free! PJ O'Rourke

Please believe me the views I am expressing are not just my own many many people here are saying the same things.I heard that he did not want to talk to fox can you blame him they spew out with nothing but anti Obama rhetoric day and night even before he was elected they were against hime.People here in the UK and in Europe never liked Bush sorry I never met one who did.never.IOn the other hand people here were unanimously welcoming to a new administration lead by Barack Obama .That’s not what decent journalists are supposed to do the CNN never do that. Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

CNN does it all the time, Alistair. And, while I am not a huge Bush fan either, he was mercilessly hounded and made fun of by the so called journalists in the mainstream media. A lot of people see too many changes coming way too fast out of the Obama administration. I had never attended a demonstration of any type before the Tea Parties on April 15th and since then. I am an average guy, not a racist, nazi, skin head or right wing extremist as the participants were portrayed my the dominant media. And there were thousands of others who never thought they would attend a protest either. There were also blacks, hispanics, young and old, families and singles. I did not see a single sign with anything hateful or directly disrespectful of the President. Rather, the signs were protesting the direction he is trying to take our country and speed he is trying to do it at. It was entirely peaceful, no fights or violence. Contrast these with the G-20 protests in Pittsburg this last week, and all the violence there. Both MSNBC and CNN conveniently edited out the head and upper torso of the one man who shown with the M-16 slung over his shoulder, barrel down. This man was black, but you would have never known this from the clips shown on CNN. There is a great upwelling of emotion and concern that you all are not hearing about across the pond. But this concern is for our Constitution not anti-Obama. As for Israel and the Palestinian leadership they all need to grow up and start listening to each other.

-- If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free! PJ O'Rourke

IMO, Fox was absent from that lineup because of the respect given to the office, none. With all of the anti-Obama sentiment on that network, why in the world would anyone put themselves in that position?

Fox viewership greater than all combined, not exactly, but I’ll grant you that they are at least 2 or 3 of those combined. But the reason is not what you think. Fox is sensationalist TV, not news. People love a good train wreck and/or conspiracy. Fox news is like the Sun tabloid rather than an actual news channel.

Real news and updates on the heath care or financial situation is frankly boring as hell. If you watch CNN for an hour and watch them pour over bill details or charts and graphs on actual data you’d probably be bored to death. Turn it on good old Fox news for some juicy death panel, Obama killing grandmothers, yea, that’s news.

And Alistair, thanks for speaking up. I for one do care what other countries think about the US and our policies. As our societies get more complex, we will have to rely on each other more and more, we throw away our relationships with other nations at our peril.

And WTF:
As for Israel and the Palestinian leadership they all need to grow up and start listening to each other.

Have you done ANY research on this topic? If it was as simple as this don’t you think it would have already occurred? I took a series of courses of Middle East history 1938- and I can’t begin to describe how vacuous a statement that is…..unbelievable.

Mainstream media? What is that? The truth? Is it possible that every media outlet in the world has been hoodwinked by the government and Fox is the lone wolf of reason? ROFL…..You neo-cons claim the government is useless and incompetent yet they are able to pull off what would be the most elaborate global conspiracy ever hatched…..

Too funny.

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Yeah, you are a load of laughs, Caver. Had enough of you. I’m going to the shop, hot as it is right now.

-- If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free! PJ O'Rourke

Appears to me that faith in governments without credible evidence is the new religion of choice. With the most narrow minded fundamentalist that exist in the country worshiping at its altar.

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

Mainstream media? What is that? The truth?

Go have another glass of kool-aid.

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ You can be tired, or you can be broke, but you should never be tired and broke.

The reason all those ships carry imports/exports in and out of Singapore is for tax purposes in the US. Corps take their profits in Singapore because of low tax rates, ship to the US, sell at a loss, take a tax decuction, put all the money in Swiss banks and laugh their a——- of at us fools that buy the junk and pay the bills.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

It’s easy to live in a country when you have friendly nations surrounding your borders. It’s another story when you’re surrounded by nations that teach their citizens to hate your very existence and constantly seek your demise. Israel lives every day surrounded by wolves so why shouldn’t they be armed.

I don’t hate Obama, I don’t like his policies that are eroding our Constitution and yes social programs are needed by those that truly need them and I support them, but able bodied citizens shouldn’t abuse those programs.

-- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Mike D.

Maybe it’s time for America to stop worrying about whether or not those boats are getting filled up with other countries crap and start thinking about how we can and should produce our own crap. Granted there are obvious things we need from forum countries, like Asians to be our professors, but once they teach us we should be able to handle making our own products. Lets face it, Americans have gotten way to comfortable outsourcing everything overseas, and now we can’t afford to import. Our misery can’t be blamed on government. It’s got to be blamed on our education system. Americans are idiots these days and to concerned with things of no relavence. With no education, or one that lacks a certain common sense, we are bound to make crappy decisions, decisions that put us out of work, out of products, out of money, etc. I agree with JC 100% that the war shouldn’t have happened and this mess wouldn’t be nearly as big had we not started that crap. How much would 2 or 3 good nukes cost anyway? Not nearly 864 billion bucks and our problems would have been over a long time ago. And our brothers and sisters wouldn’t have been killed protecting another countries freedoms (or forcing democracy upon them, howevery you wish to view it) while we lose ours. BAM, I said it. These wars everyone is pretending are protecting our freedoms isn’t protecting crap. Money is our freedom. And it’s being spent on caskets for the very people being forced to fight for the phony word.
Our government sucks balls no matter how you look at it. The decisions it makes on what to spend money on are retarded. The rules it creates for us to suffer abiding by are retarded as well. Small business’s fail because we can’t keep up with all the bull crap laws, fees, licensing, etc that they can’t afford to follow. Take some of the stupid rules away so the little man can keep his job. Don’t just flip a few billion dollars around to banks so they can save business’s that will just hire another dumb ass CEO. It’s a vicious circle. The banks should be giving loans to small business’s, without a huge deposit or collateral, so these small business’s can get out of debt and pay for marketing.
You don’t need those ships. You need to get off your lazy asses and make something instead of supporting the chinese imports and the cost of those vessels. We should be using those ships to ship out the assholes screwing up this country, as well as the millions of illegals clustering our emergancy rooms.
Speaking of that, If you need health care that bad why not hop the fence to Mexico and cluster their emergency room! HaH, problemo solved.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Whew! I can do a dissertation on the threads that Bob starts and the diversity in the debates that follow!!! Bob, never stop. Much enjoyed. It reinforces the fact that the “crises” that come to me day after day at work are extremely minute in the grander scale of things.

Thank God for FOX NEWS and talk radio!

-- Bill, Florida

AMEN! Thanks Bob this has been an interesting debate.

Thanks to all those that have gone before us protecting our freedoms so that we can voice our opinion openly without fear of reprisals.

-- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Mike D.

I would like to point out that I often report the news and not often do I comment on it despite the allegations given here.
If you would like to see the original article in it orginagl form follow this link.

http://www.investorsdailyedge.com/this-is-what-declining-world-trade-looks-like.html

I glad you all had a chance to do some serious thinking about this “global” situation.

We all pretty much know what caused it .

It seems we are undecided as to how to fix it .

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

T.V. rots your brain. America needs to defend its domestic manufacturing.

The fix is quite simple, adopt the post WWII policies that built what we threw away. That isn’t likely to happen until things get a lot worse than they are :-(( It will probably be my grandchildren’s generation that do it.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

OK, don’t take a vote from the Unemployed people… they don’t know anything… except how to work, work, work.

Wait for the Unemployed percentage to gain to 3/4 of what it was before it started to drop… Then, the Depression will be OVER.

Why would you want to hear from ANY politician that the Depression was over?
They will only LIE about it… There word isn’t worth a tinkers dam n…

The unemployment % is the main measuring stick to the American people as to whether or not it’s Over or not…

We cannot depend on the politicians… they don’t know the meaning of TRUTH! IMHO!

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

My, where do I start? Reading all these threads boggles my mind with all the left wing and right wing comments and the accessment of blame for all matters and problems. If anyone can withdraw from political assisnations you might find that the fundamental issues we face are due to complacency and greed.
Health care is a mess because there are too many “middlemen” between you and your doctor/hospital. All these middlemen make really huge profits which means they get this money by not reimbursing you for your paid healthcare premiums. The onle positive thing you can say about healthcare is that it gives employment to a lot of poeple helping to rob us. Similarly Businesses can earn more money if they don’t have any workers in the US, which makes us a nation of “customers”, not manufacturers. Banks, hand in glove with Realtors engineer ways to make loans with rediculous conditions to improve their sales and then resell these dodgy loans to unsuspecting institutions. Banks even established a “get as many credit card customers with high limits” even if the customers did not qualify for such enhanced credit.
Complacency is just how the US has let this all go on and also the notion that we are the “dogs bollocks” and every country and their citizens are lesser countries or people. Countries and people grow up and prosper over time and become good at a lot of things but the US doesn’t seem to notice this, like it’s the end of WWII where the US was the only country not left in ruins – economy and structures. Hey it’s 2009 and that has all changed, but you would never know it because the media still promotes overseas countries, their people and their systems as inferior.
So what is our real problem? Complacency, Greed and the Media
I am not left or right politically, I agree healthcare is an issue but have no idea how to fix it. The American Way or the American Model which you hear mentioned so often as a unique standard is something out of a 50 year old, out of date book. Or should we believe that the American Way is to Lie, cheat and steal for wealth, become the world’s customer – not supplier, and never consider that there are other countries and people with good ideas? I think not.
Stubborness to follow international conventions can be seen with the metric system where the US and Nigeria are the only nations not using it – and even more serious is the fact that the metric system of measurement was enacted in the 1800’s by the US goverment as the ONLY legal measrurement system in the US, so I guess we don’t even obey our own rules.
America has so many things to be proud of, but the items mentioned shows a complete reversal of what the Founding Fathers had in mind.
Look for root causes, don’t educated with hype and BS, think for yourself.
Amen

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Where we are right now is what the founding fathers warned against and tried to prevent. Through out the history of the world, the normal state of economic activity has been the 1% elite class controlling 95% of the worlds’ assets. We are rapidly heading there right now. In the last 30 yrs or so, about 40% of the value of the equity markets has been transferred from the public market to private hands. This is the result of the abandonment of the protections put in place after the Great Depression.

The propaganda of both the left and right and their talking points are BS! Both the R’s and D’s are screwing US. Until the public gets educated, nothing will change. A few years ago I did a casual survey at the gas pump, grocery store line and most every where I went. I ask people what it would take for them to be involved in saving America. They all said “more time”. They are so busy with working and trying to make ends meet they do not have the time to get involved or educate themselves.

There have only been 2 periods with a strong viable middle class in the history of US. 1750- 1780 and again in the post WWII years. This one is ending with a big boom. People will see their wages at or below subsistence levels for the foreseeable future. The cycle that is ending is an 80 year cycle that happens to coincide with the end of the post WWII middle class. It will be very difficult politically to regenerate what we have lost. If you don’t believe me, read this thread!! Too much BS and very few verifiable facts presented. :-((

Yes, post WWII trade and tax policy will go along way towards rebuilding what we have lost. The greedy power mongers that have been in charge for the last 30 yrs certainly aren’t going to put it back together! Afer all, Greenspan said his job was to maintain a certain level of unrest in the labor markets to keep them from demanding higher wages. He was successful, but it hasn’t stopped inflation, just screwed up the entire world economy. Higher wages don’t cause inflation, they are the result of of it. I just hope this doesn’t end up like pre-WWII Germany when workers were demanding to be paid at noon because their pay would be worthless at the end of the day!!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Topamaxsurvivor,
There is a great deal of common sense in what you say. I can’t say that I am knowledgable about some of it to offer a meaningful response but you are definately on the right track. The great depression was indeed a tradegy and a huge wake up call which Americans rose to, and WWII, as horrible as it was, became a great boost for the US economy, especially in the post WWII years. The strides of that recovery and higher standards of living it generated have since been infiltrated by disreputable people who had fed on the spoils of the rape and pilaging of the US economy and the lives of ordinary citizens.
Like I said before the founding fathers saw the country as being full of honest, hard working and commited citizens, and I believe they would turn in their graves if they saw today what some of the ME ME citizens have brought us to.
Most interesting that you specify a strong viable middle class existed between 1750-1780. Are you saying this country was better off as a colony? lol Come back George – all is forgiven, and we wasted all that good tea too! But if we had remained a colony, then the health care issue wouldn’t exist – we’d all have socialized medicine!!!! lol

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Someone commented on the Unemployment figures. They can’t give us an accurate count of unemployment because once your unemployment runs out you are no longer counted as one of the unemployed.

-- Mike. mwurm13@yahoo.com

Despite signs that the economy has resumed growing, unemployed Americans now confront a job market that is bleaker than ever in the current recession, and employment prospects are still getting worse.
Job seekers now outnumber openings six to one, the worst ratio since the government began tracking open positions in 2000. According to the Labor Department’s latest numbers, from July, only 2.4 million full-time permanent jobs were open, with 14.5 million people officially unemployed.

And even though the pace of layoffs is slowing, many companies remain anxious about growth prospects in the months ahead, making them reluctant to add to their payrolls.

“There’s too much uncertainty out there,” said Thomas A. Kochan, a labor economist at M.I.T.’s Sloan School of Management. “There’s not going to be an upsurge in job openings for quite a while, not until employers feel confident the economy is really growing.”

The dearth of jobs reflects the caution of many American businesses when no one knows what will emerge to propel the economy. With unemployment at 9.7 percent nationwide, the shortage of paychecks is both a cause and an effect of weak hiring.

In Milwaukee, Debbie Kransky has been without work since February, when she was laid off from a medical billing position — her second job loss in two years. She has exhausted her unemployment benefits, because her last job lasted for only a month.

Indeed, in a perverse quirk of the unemployment system, she would have qualified for continued benefits had she stayed jobless the whole two years, rather than taking a new position this year. But since her latest unemployment claim stemmed from a job that lasted mere weeks, she recently drew her final check of $340.

Ms. Kransky, 51, has run through her life savings of roughly $10,000. Her job search has garnered little besides anxiety.

“I’ve worked my entire life,” said Ms. Kransky, who lives alone in a one-bedroom apartment. “I’ve got October rent. After that, I don’t know. I’ve never lived month to month my entire life. I’m just so scared, I can’t even put it into words.”

Last week, Ms. Kransky was invited to an interview for a clerical job with a health insurance company. She drove her Jeep truck downtown and waited in the lobby of an office building for nearly an hour, but no one showed. Despondent, she drove home, down $10 in gasoline.

For years, the economy has been powered by consumers, who borrowed exuberantly against real estate and tapped burgeoning stock portfolios to spend in excess of their incomes. Those sources of easy money have mostly dried up. Consumption is now tempered by saving; optimism has been eclipsed by worry.

Meanwhile, some businesses are in a holding pattern as they await the financial consequences of the health care reforms being debated in Washington.

Even after companies regain an inclination to expand, they will probably not hire aggressively anytime soon. Experts say that so many businesses have pared back working hours for people on their payrolls, while eliminating temporary workers, that many can increase output simply by increasing the workload on existing employees.

“They have tons of room to increase work without hiring a single person,” said Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute Economist. “For people who are out of work, we do not see signs of light at the end of the tunnel.”

Even typically hard-charging companies are showing caution. Read the full article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/business/economy/27jobs.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Thanks Bob for adding to this thread with some good supplemental information rather than the rhetorical, dogmatic garbage above. Much appreciated.

Topa, at every turn you cite WWII as some example of how things should be, maybe because that is all you have experience with. I bet during that era, people from The Great War were saying the same things. Besides, we just had 2 wars! I don’t know what to say about people who like to proclaim that war is good for the economy….Surely there must be a better way to financial prosperity….

As for our founding fathers, geez. The world is a little different than it was in the late 1700’s. Not only is it disingenuous to point our what our founding fathers would have wanted, its completely irrelevant. And I love the blanket statement that you can’t trust ANY politician. I guess I just have a different outlook on life and people in general. I believe that a lot of people that get into government want to do the right thing and make our nation strong and they work hard to that end. I have nothing to base that on save for my few experiences with Jack Kemp and a friends father who was the governor of Rhode Island.

Do politicians lie? Of course some do and are deceitful, that’s why we have a system of checks and balances.

In the end, if you believe that every politician is crooked, the government is evil and our country is going to shit, there is nothing we can debate because its like religion or any other conspiracy theory. Any evidence presented will be discounted or “faked” by governmental forces.

One thing is for certain. If you stop watching Fox news, the world seems like a much better place…..

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

You are correct Carver, I believe most politicians do come into office with the idea of making our country better, but power corrupts.

I don’t trust them because they haven’t earned my trust. When they pass legislation they haven’t read or understand because of party loyalty then I have a problem with them. There ready to ram a health care bill down our throat that a majority of legal citizens don’t want then I have a problem with that as well. They were all set to penalize people that had as they call it a “Golden Health policy” until they discovered that a big part of the Dems constituency were the very ones that had the Golden policies (united auto workers for example). If this great plan they have is so good then why aren’t they willing to drop the one they have and accept the one they have in store for us? Why aren’t they willing to have Tort reform? Why must taxpayers pay for sex change operations for those that don’t like what God gave them?

Yes our world has changed a great deal since our founding fathers time but the principles on which our Constitution and nation were founded are still relevant. It’s only when we stray away from those ideals that we get into trouble.

-- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Mike D.

Most of the world believes that it’s not about America Caver.
Every time any material is introduced here you seem to equate it with U.S.politics , U.S. religion or some other “American” perspective.
As this is and international site, your comments might find more readers if you directed them to a partisan website.
And for what’s it’s worth, most people on this planet do not watch Fox news whatever that is???
You seem to have a very parochial attitude to everything like some one who has not has much life experience or travelled to any extent.

Like many , I can do without your comments.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

The Americans people or the British people are wonderful people but our politicians just don’t listen to us. Many millions here took to the streets begging and demanding that Tony blair did not take us into an Iraq war.He like the george bush administration had already decided we were fifteen minutes away so we were told from mushroom clouds and they worried us. What did we find when we invaded? Nothing! Many tens of thousands of people dead for nothing .Now we are in Afghanistan and are we winning ?No we are creating nothing people can’t be bombed into western democracy.The many dead and injured coming home without limbs for what? At the end of the day it is said we will have to negociate with the Taliban as this war is unwinable.Why we bolster up afghanistan leaders like kharzi when elections are undeniably rigged to jkeep our man in power , the whole world knows it and democracy real democracy is denied the people of Afghanistan as they end up with a man the west want but a man they don’t want . We must stop this madness of interfering in other peoples affairs at the end of the day we end up chopping and changing our mind according to what day it is.It has never brought us anything but death and misery our boys and girls are better than that and deserve better.All for political games that end up with misery look at Vietnam we in the west have learned nothing. all for what.?Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

For the pacifist that keeps posting an anti-war message any time he can fit one in, I just wanted to post this quote. If the shoe fits…. I’m not in favor of war if there is another way, but when you are dealing with an irrational leader, diplomacy doesn’t always work.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 – 1873)

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

That idiot obviously never lossed a son or daughter for a stupid cause. If he did maybe he would think differently
I am not thinking of my own safety . I am talking about many tens of thousands of innocent iraqi men women and children who died for nothing maybe you feel they are not important but I do.Defending yourself against invasion is one thing,constant meddling politically with abig stick throughout the world for your own greed is another maybe you are proud of that but I think it’s despicable.Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

So lets fight our way into having nothing. It’s idiocracy to believe that any war, especially one where the west is trying to “force” democracy is somehow maintaining our freedom. We went to war under the impression that Iraq had nukes, when we found out they didn’t we should have walked away. We were attacked by people living in the USA, not by another country. The same attack can easily happen again tomorrow, and it probably will sooner or later. Freedom is feeling safe. I don’t feel safe knowing all our troops are in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan trying to force our beliefs on those people. Woman are blowing themselves up over there because they believe different then we do. That’s not taliban, thats citizens saying get out and leave us alone.
Our war should be to protect our own borders. We have a huge problem with illegals. We can’t afford to get more border patrol agents to keep them out. Nobody is loading the fleet of hispanics up in a van at home depot and taking them home. Nobody is forcing them to pay taxes to be here, or their medical bills when they have illness or babies. If our troops were here protecting “THEIR” country literally, we wouldn’t be in a financial disaster, our roadways would be less clogged, more jobs would be created, less gangs, better education system because of less students per classroom, and on and on and on. We are fighting someone elses war, and it’s not protecting anything that we have over here at all. It’s getting worse here, and worse there taboot. So the point of it is? That people think fighting for bull crap is logical. People like Dale, who support our troops dying for someone elses “forced” freedom, while we lose ours. Thats what’s wrong with our country. We believe that we have to fix everyone elses crap, and we can’t even fix ours.
Think of it as being a woodworker. You go to work to improve on everyone elses lifestyle, and can’t even fix your own shit.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Although I didn’t mention any names, I guess it was obvious. That “idiot” as you referred to him, did not lose a son or daughter as you said. I thought you might identify with him because although he was born in England, he was born to Scottish parents. He was also very liberal, promoted socialism and was one of the greatest advocates of free speech in his time. He did recognize that sometimes people had to fight. I’m thinking about the thousands of Iraqis that died too, the ones that were killed before the “invasion” at the hands of their very own leadership.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

Keith, you say the attacks were by people in our own country and that’s true. The attacks were, however, planned overseas, and the attackers sent here for that very purpose, while we had one of the most liberal, peace-loving presidents in office. Know your history, or repeat it. If you think that every one of the other problems you mentioned has just started in the last decade, than you are very young with a short memory indeed.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

I realize that these problems aren’t new. And that’s the crappy part. We know and have known for decades. So lets sit here and let it continue to get worse. People will always be planning on attacking someone at some point. Going over there and destroying the country and trying to force beliefs on those people will simply enrage them further and the future attacks will be worse. Why? Because we won’t stop them from getting a pass into the country. The only protection against it is to lock up the US, or kill everyone. But it would be a good start to at least weed out the problems here, instead of spending billions and not solving anything. Do you really think anything changed over there? You can’t change people. Time to come home and protect ourselves.
The Bush administration, whether it was Daddy or son, both believed in war, in fact attacking Iraq was at the top of both of their agendas, how is that peace loving?

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I also wanted to say before I get to work that realizing that the people who attacked had planned overseas, what happens if a Russian plans an attack, comes here and fullfills it? A North Korean? Anybody from anywhere? Are we to attack their country? Or will we simply attack Iraq again for convenience? Going to war for what happened in my mind was bogus, and continues to be proven so simply because it can happen again at anytime.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Damn Bob, I tried to be cordial with you this time, even posting a compliment at the top of my last post, I guess there is no pleasing you or common ground we can occupy.

Anyway, what part of all of my posts that include the words “global”, “worldwide”, or any number of all inclusive terms indicate that I only limit my views to the US?

In case you have forgotten though, a lot of this discussion was about US healthcare and the effects of our government on global trade. And frankly, as the US goes, so does a lot of the rest of the world, that’s just how it is. I am the last one to be accused of being a nationalist….

An international site Bob? We could ask Martin about the stats, but I’d be willing to bet that well over 80% of the traffic here is from the US….

As for my comments, if you don’t want them, don’t post nonsense that I will have to refute…..Or maybe post something insightful rather than just copying and pasting your conservative agenda on a woodworking site.

When you post this crap, just like Micheal Jackson….”I’ll be there….”

Good day boys….

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Don’t bother being nice Cueves, I don’t need your warped ideas on my topics.
This is still and all and International site despite who makes the most noise.
What’s the matter with you?
Maybe the rest of us dont want to discuss your politics or your wars or your health issues. Maybe our interests are global rather than parochial. It’s not about the U.S or Medicare it’s about the recession. Read the bloody title man!
You had to bring in your medical woes here .
That was not on the table .
Go start up a thread about your health care . I cant see why I should give a rats taile about it.

I have my own and I’m not caterwalling about it.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Dale M I will give you abetter quote everyone knows
(BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS FOR THEY SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD) Taken from the bible

note it does not say blessed are the warmongers.
Beat that ,and well said Kolwdwrkr and JC.
Healthcare is not cheap I give you that but it is well regarded here in the uk no one wants to see it watered down or removed believe me after a decade of you having it you’ll wonder how you ever got by without it.However I respect that it’s your choice President Obama made it clear he was going to bring in a healthcare plan all during his campaign don’t forget that and he was overwhelmingly voted forMY 2 cents at least thats how we see it here in the uk find one person here who would see it die I’ve never met one yet. I think you guys have been brought up with such a dreaded sense of socialism believing it to be outright comunism I hate comunism like most here but soclaism is a good thing not comunism Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

I thought it was “Blessed are the cheesemakers”.... or something or other to do with the makers of all dairy products…..

Alistair, be careful of your friends. Now JC will attack you for quoting the bible so I wouldn’t be so quick to high-five him. I understand I won’t be able to change your opinion, and I won’t try, but it’s getting old seeing the same things from you again and again on here. You never stop giving your opinions on how SOMEONE ELSE’S COUNTRY (the US) should be run but you constantly criticize the US for trying to influence OTHER COUNTRIES.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

Bob you are too much man…..They aren’t my issues dude, they are the most powerful nation on Earth’s issues, which means they will have a profound impact on the rest of the world. Everything is intertwined like Darwin’s tree of life, now how about posting some relevant thoughts instead of just attacks? I can handle the bickering, but please at least offer us some of your own wisdom instead of your hit and run pasting…..I’ll look forward to your insight on these global matters….

Dale, I may not agree with Alistair’s religion, and we have crossed paths before, but it looks like we can find common ground on the future of the US. It’s very difficult to see how we (the US) is perceived from abroad, and it’s nice to hear that input from the Scot :) You can’t just go around blindly pounding nationalist propaganda into everyone’s heads.

Alistair, thanks for having the backbone to run against the flow here, I think the majority of Americans don’t even realize that we already are, for the most part, socialist.

A lot of neo-cons talk about greed and corporations doing this and that, well, check out this little snippet:

Most socialists share the view that (ed. PURE) capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through exploitation, creates an unequal society, does not provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximize their potentialities and does not utilize technology and resources to their maximum potential nor in the interests of the public.

Socialism…work=reward, that’s seems a lot like what people are saying on this thread.

You conservatives might want to go read some books about capitalism and socialism…it’s probably not what you think it is. It’s certainly not the Leninesque version portrayed by conservative news outlets. Am I voting for a communist government, or even highly socialist, no, not even close, but IMO, health care should not be a profit oriented business. When is the last time you heard someone in the military complain about their healthcare? With the exception of the VA, which is a separate entity….

And Dale, there is nothing wrong with quoting the Bible, it happens to contain some eloquent prose at times….I just do not personally regard it as the word of the living god….

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

There’s no place to start with you caver.
You are so far up your backside with barnyard wisdom and total misconceptions about the planet that it would probably take the better part of 10 years to get you up to speed and then you might be able to debate a sophomore in Mumbia University,or perhaps China.
They can run circles around your knowledge of whats happening right today.
That’s probably why most of it is happening come to think of it.

You are filled to the rim with “Yankee propaganda” most of which you don’t seem to grasp.
As most are seeing, there’s a lot of it flying around but next to none is sticking.
Best, greatest etc. blah blah blah. It’s not happening wake up!
It could happen again but you will have to get your crap together in a hurry.
Most countries in the world today are looking for ways to trade and barter without getting involved in the old style Yankee imperialism but most of you think it can just go on and on as if the planet is here for your indulgence.

Wake up do some serious research before disagreeing with everyone and stop making it up as you go.
It just not working that way anymore.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

“They ” say we are out of the recession? Who are “they”? Personally I don’t think so and it is going to take more than these handouts and bandaids, it is going to require a vast change in the way the US does business.
Here some things that have to be changed:
WWII solved a lot of this country’s recession problems and promoted prosperity and made the economy dynamic. That was a one time deal and going to war now does not bring the same benefits – for whatever reason the war is about.
Immigration aims were to “give me your …....” but we should have not opened our doors to rouges who saw an opening to transfer their criminal business to a larger number of victims. Illigal immigration should not be tolerated.
Manufacturing and other certain jobs should not be sent overseas on the pretext of saving money because we then become foreign product customers who purchase the products we once made with a very extended line of credit from the new makers, so in fact we have not bought anything, we just owe for it.
Lawyers need to understand that they are not Gods gift to the human race and that a 30 month certificate does not give them the right to become preditors.
The media: Real news is actually mundane and boring so the media injects embelished and vastly opinionated crap because they are in a competition to get the most viewers so they can sell things. They should take a leaf from Dragnet – “just the facts”. News anchors are chosen for their sexual appeal and are just pawns to make the news an entertainment and provoking cliffhanger. Personally I have found BBC America to be much more realistic at reporting the news – but that’s just my opinion. The media has too much influence and can change your outlook for good or bad – Bush standing on a pile of rubble on 9/11 was support by almost everyone to go after the culprits, but a couple of years later the media blamed Bush for the “war”. No I am not a Bush supporter.
Jobs that produce nothing or invent services don’t help an economy that has ceased manufacturing. Like lawyers there are a lot of MBA’s out there thinking of ways to make money, even if we don’t really need their services. Insurance companies make huge amounts of money welching with the aid of lawyers on the coverages you thought you paid premiuns for. You find these insurance “services” in healthcare, car repairs and a whole host of other things. Bottom line is they do all they can to keep the money and assemble a huge service and workforce to fight the insured. I don’t have any answer to this but somehow we must make the leaches honest.
Other countries have their own way of doing things and any democratic country can change what they don’t like by majority vote. We should respect their version and not criticize it as being un-American because their country is not America. Instead learn from them, there are some goods points in any conversation?

Learn the lesson: At the height of the great depression public project jobs were created to get people back to work. The war came along and women were allowed to do essentially men’s jobs, there was full employment and we manufactured goods for ourselves and our allies – it was boom time and it lasted way on it to the 50’s and 60’s. During this time of recovery there were no leach services, live was honest and everything was for the good of the country – and western world.
Today we have “citizens” who have defrauded people out of billions and “citizens” who have stashed away billions in tax shelters – and there is more of this corruption to come.
What we need more than anything is to revert to those hardworking, indipendent and honest citizens the founding fathers assumed us all to be and not finding ways to make our fortunes from detrimental methods that harm our citizens and our country.
Only we, the citizens can make the recovery and to do that we need to change our attitude and ways.
I choose not to rant and accuse individuals, we are all human, we should just try to be better.

Oh yes Scotsman “blessed are the peacemakes” here has been turned into a media expression here, it’s “Blessed are the Piss Takers….....”

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Defending yourself against invasion is one thing,

Scotsman, are you saying the US should have saved it’s fortune and lives by leaving your country to fight Nazism with no one but the Soviets helping you? The Germans didn’t attack us either time we sent our troops to help out in your part of the world.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Wrong.

WW1: The Germans sank the Lusitania which contained Americans. After briefly backing down, they resumed their attacks on allied ships.

WW2: The Nazis declared war on the US on December 11, 1941. We had no intention of getting involved until Pearl Harbor. The allegiance between Hirohito and Hitler sealed the deal.

Bob, I’m still waiting for some substance from you on anything of consequence. It’s very evident for all to see that you do not even read my posts before blathering on yet again. In fact, I’ve already stated that I agree with some of the things you mention! You’re so busy verbally masturbating that the content has become irrelevant.

Please, for the final time, enlighten us…..

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Well said Roger

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Oh, and Bob, the University of Mumbai ranks in the top three universities in India and is very prestigious, turning out about 1100 world class engineers every year.

As for China (you didn’t mention a specific school), they are the largest english speaking country and per capita turn our more scientists, engineers and skilled workers than the US does.

I’d be honored to debate anyone at these establishments….

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Nothing defines humans better than their willingness to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally unlikely payoffs.
This is the principle behind lotteries, dating, and religion and activists.
Kind of fits you to a T Caver.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

twiddles thumbs while wistling O Canada

-- Good, better, best; Never let it rest until your good is better and your better best! Mark, Windsor, Ontario

obama SAYS this obama SAYS that when is he gona PROVE IT!???

-- Good, better, best; Never let it rest until your good is better and your better best! Mark, Windsor, Ontario

i’ll be in the workshop enjoying my life not worrying about it

-- Good, better, best; Never let it rest until your good is better and your better best! Mark, Windsor, Ontario

That’s a good idea Mark :) Just got finished hand cutting half blinds on 3 drawer fronts myself….

Christ Bob….I wish you would at least mention some of the things you are railing against….I can’t even tell what your argument is!

If my facts are incorrect, please cite your sources and I’ll gladly admit my mistake….If you see false logic, please enlighten me with facts or evidence. I’ll be more than happy to entertain a counterpoint. As of yet, in ALL of your posts, I find nothing…..NOTHING of substance…..

And dating is like playing lotteries? You must be one hell of a boring date…..

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Wrong.

WW1: The Germans sank the Lusitania which contained Americans. After briefly backing down, they resumed their attacks on allied ships.

WW2: The Nazis declared war on the US on December 11, 1941. We had no intention of getting involved until Pearl Harbor. The allegiance between Hirohito and Hitler sealed the deal.

Bob, I’m still waiting for some substance from you on anything of consequence. It’s very evident for all to see that you do not even read my posts before blathering on yet again. In fact, I’ve already stated that I agree with some of the things you mention! You’re so busy verbally masturbating that the content has become irrelevant.

Please, for the final time, enlighten us…..

JC

You’re not very happy in life are you?
WW1—Americans yes. But it wasn’t our flag ship. The media whipped up a frenzy same as they did for the Mexican war and the Spanish American. Oh, and you forgot the Zimmerman Telegram. Look it up. But we weren’t attacked.
WW2- His statement was about being attacked. Declaring war isn’t an attack. Sounds like we were being pre-emptive doesn’t it? Especially since the Germans didn’t have the ability to attack us. They were a little busy on three or four different fronts. Oh, and you don’t really believe we weren’t involved or planned to be do you? Ever heard of lend-lease?

War is a terrible thing and besides creating our country, ending slavery here, stopping facism and communism it never solved a thing.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Christ Bob….I wish you would at least mention some of the things you are railing against….I can’t even tell what your argument is!

I thought you were against religion. Why use a religious term?

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

What’s war solving now? It may have solved problems before but it had obvious better reasons for happening, except for the Vietnam war that is. Today is the day we are discussing. Today. Not yesterday, not 100 years ago. What are we doing now to fix this crap? War isn’t fixing anything, it’s making it worse because #1 there is no reason for it # 2 it’s costing entirely to much money that we will never be able to pay off. Everyone talks about learning from the past, etc. Common sense should be the key ingredient to fixing our problems. We have to make our own products. That would create new jobs. We have to get rid of the people who are here illegally. That will create new jobs, free up our teachers for more one on one, thus improving our educational system, it would also clear our road ways which would take some of the wear and tear from them. We need to have our soldiers here protecting our borders, helping our homeless, fixing our disasters, etc. Look at Katrina. Where the hell was everyone when that hit? Oh yeah, meddling in someone elses BS. It’s crazy that if a wave of water hits Indonesia we are the first ones dropping off products and lending a hand. If a wave hits the US there’s nobody in site. If another natural disaster hits us now (aside from the numerous floods, countless fires, etc that are occuring right now) in this recession we’re screwed. Of course they could then increase the healthcare costs since so many people will be in dispare and vulnerable to be ripped off. War isn’t fixing anything at this moment. Maybe someone elses country, but not mine.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Is this the way?
If you have a job, you work 40 hours a week – unless your employer only hires you for 38 hours so they don’t have to give you ANY benefits. 40 hours has been the standard for 50 years, yet the promise of adopting technology was to decrease the work hours. What happened? Greed took over and employers decided they could get workers to do multiple jobs and let some people go, thus make more money. Cel phones on our hips make sure we never leave the workplace and work can be added instantly, it is no small wonder that workers are depressed, overworked and have very little “free” time. The promise to embrace technology succeeded not to make our lives better, but to make it a living hell.
Should we embrace these criminals who swindle us out of billions, and lawyers pop up to defend their deeds and plead for leneancy? Or should we revoke their citizenship and deport them as being criminals who have raped trusting Americans?
Should there be a series of organizations and services between you and your doctor/hospital making huge amounts of money for providing interference.
Do you think that ALL US citizens should have access to healthcare?, is it a citizen’s right?
Do you think manufacturing and other jobs should be exported, thus creating unemplyment?
Do you think that the US should advise NOT dictate how other countries carry on?
Do you support illegal immigration from anywhere?

During WWII and after the USA was the world’s hero and revered as such. Today we are not revered because we have become greedy, dishonest and untrusted because we have changed so much for the worse over the past 20/30 years.

All these items, and those I wrote about previously, all contribute to how we find ourselves today and I personally think we have gone astray and need to get back to the real American Program. Patriotism does not just mean flying the flag, supporting armed forces, blaming various pilitical parties or being Republican or Democrat, it MUST include devotion to all it’s citizen’s, honesty, compassion and doing what is right by your maker.
It is my hope that citizens will grasp the true causes of the dire mess we are in and as we are a democratic nation we should be able to get started on the best path.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Good post Bob2 and a telling photo. There are empty trucks parked idly and for sale everywhere here. Also a glut of small business closing and desperately trying to sell equipment at a loss all over the state. Half finished housing tracts and unfinished homes sitting exposed to the weather and the list goes on and on. I think that tanned guy in Washington DC is full of baloney.

-- Still clinging to my guns and religion.

Firecaster, thanks for bringing some facts to the table. Though, I am not very clear on your position. Is it that we should just continue invading countries in hopes that our economy improves? or that war is somehow good for us? These last 2 have sure helped us out (sarcasm).....

As for my happiness, its only disrupted when fundamentalists push their agendas or try to hold back the progress of humanity.

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

I think, with hindsight, everything seems clear. There is right and wrong on both sides and the older I get the less sure I am.

I love discussing issues, such as the current wars (Vietnam also) but the debate turns too acrimonious (spelling) too quickly. I think that’s our biggest problem. Reagan and Tip O’Neal got together for cigars even knowing they’d rip each others eyes out the next day. We aren’t taking the long view. That we’re all in this together and events are on a pendulem. You’ll get your way a while then I’ll get mine.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

On the Iraq war:
We started that war because they had something to do with 9-11 (No, they didn’t!). Oh, well, we started that war because they had weapons of mass destruction (No, they didn’t!). Well, we started that war because they have tries with Al Quaeda (No, as matter of fact, Al Quaeda had virtually no presence in Iraq until we overthrew Hussein). Well, damnit, they tried to kill my daddy! (oh, that’s different! It’s a private grudge war! Fought with public dollars and other American lives by a Vietnam draft-dodger!)

On the fleet of freighters idled outside of Hong Kong:
Well, just think of all the oil they are saving by not shipping products across the biggest ocean on the planet. How in the hell can anyone think that goods can be produced in any other country, shipped halfway around the world and still be sold cheaper than local goods? Something is wrong with this view, why not find out what it is?

On health care:
One of my coworkers just went to the same clinic recently praised by Obama for holding down costs. She spent 72 minutes, a little over 1 hour, with consultations and tests to find the cause for a chronic cough. The bill delivered to our health plan was $2700! One hour of health care equates to 100’s of hours of take-home pay for a worker. But, somehow we are supposed to believe that health providers are charging fair prices and doing a good job managing their own waste and inefficiencies. Any interference with them must be socialism. Any attempt to regulate them must be big, bad government trying to socialize medicine.

I weep for America!

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

Well, damnit, they tried to kill my daddy! (oh, that’s different! It’s a private grudge war! Fought with public dollars and other American lives by a Vietnam draft-dodger!)

You don’t really believe that do you? Was everyone that joined the national guard a draft dodger? Now Clinton, there was a draft dodger.
And how else is war ever fought but with public dollars and lives?

Iraq had used chemical weapons on several occasions and they would not cooperate with the UN inspectors after many threats. Bush, Clinton, Putin, Blair, etc. are on record as saying he had WMDs. No nukes though, thanks to Israel. It’s been said several times on this thread that Bush took us to war. Only Congress can declare war. They can be led just like the public but as the peoples reps they have the power over war. Nobody mentions that. I honestly don’t remember anyone using 911 as a reason to go there. I’ve heard several people say that was used but alot was happening back then and I don’t remember. You yourself said Al-Q had virtually no presence in Iraq. Conversely, doesn’t that mean they did have a presence? I remember it said that Saddam was a supporter of terroism, which he was. Should we have cared? I don’t know.

I do know that if he wasn’t a threat to “our” oil supply we wouldn’t be there. That was the reason for helping Kuwait and protecting the Saudis. I read somewhere that every president since Eisenhower has made protecting the oil a national security issue. We aren’t helping those poor people in the Congo. Why? No oil. Former CIA Director Woolsey said that every national secuity issue we face is tied to oil. Maybe, we should spend money finding a way off the black stuff instead of fighting over it.

As I said before, there is right on all sides. My point about the war stuff was that it usually seems like a good idea at the time. It’s later that it looks like another botched government program. Speaking of the government…...

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/31004

James Woolsey interview

http://www.setamericafree.org/

One of his groups

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Good evening boys, ;-))

Not sure I’ll have time to address all the issues tonight. Bush 43 told his biographer in 1999, a full year before he was elected; that he would be a war president, defeat Iraq and build substantial political capital in the process. He was not going to waste his presidency the way his father had. After he acquired his political capital, he was going to use it to privatize Social Security. There is little doubt about the world being better off without Saddam; but, does the result justify the means??

Back to the questions, basically, in chronological order: Yes, the founders were much better off financially as colonists than as free Americans. Cheap land was the basis for the middle class that developed in Colonial America. All the signers of the Declaration of Independence were men of means, not scofflaws from the backwoods in a drunken fit. When they pledged their lives, their fortunes and scared honor, they meant it.

I seriously doubt if we could find just one man of that caliber in the US Congress today or within the last 50 years. They were truly men of the highest caliber possessing a Golden Wisdom and unselfishness. Most of them lost their fortunes, homes and some, their lives, in the Revolution. My 7th Great grand daddy, Stephen Longwell, was wounded on Long Island on August 28, 1776. He spent the rest of the war in the artillery as he could no longer use a musket. He lost nearly every thing he owned as he was paid in worthless Continentals. My second cousin, Roger Sherman, faired relatively well. He is the only person to sign the Articles of Confederation, the Declaration, and the Constitution.

After the Revolution for the next century and a half, the masses lived on a substance standard of living. My parents were both products of the Depression level of substance farmers. My mom speaks occasionally of some kids coming to school bare foot in the winter in Iowa. That is the way we lived when I was a kid. I was taught to save every penny I ever got when I was a kid. In the early 20th century there was no such thing we know as the teenage years today. When you were about 10, you went to work. Less than 20% of the people graduated high school until after WWII.

Teddy Roosevelt said a man working 40 hours a week should be able to feed his family, buy a house, educate his kids, take a vacation once in a while and save enough to eventually retire. Those were very radical ideals in the early 20th century. Farmers lived on the substance farms and labor lived in the company housing and bought groceries from the company store. Every point he made: 40 hour week, the house, education, vacation and retirement were radical changes from the norm of that period.

One really has to understand the economic conditions and labor history to get a grasp on the enormity of the change the post WWII economy brought to the world. It was the end of the colonial system. I remember some of the countries being granted their independence after hundreds of years of domination when I was in school. The Marshal Plan of rebuilding the defeated nations and economies was a radical deviation from the norm. These changes were national policy as well in the personal wealth of US individuals. Hitler and the Emperor of Japan were the last to aspire to domination of an empire such as the British built after the defeat of the Spanish Armada. (We probably should have sent Patton to Moscow instead of giving Stalin the Eastern Block countries.) Anyway, one needs to understand the history to get a perspective of the motivations that have destroyed the post WWII middle class.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

When you examine the post WWII policies, you find the highest tax rates for income in the 90% range. This accomplishes a couple of very important goals for a democracy to survive. It prevents the accumulation of multi-generational fortunes, it forces the reinvestment of capital into business which create employment for our fellow citizens and it prevents mass amounts of capital in the equity markets inflating the prices leading to boom bust cycles. We built a healthy economy of good paying manufacturing jobs on that basis. There were many policies keeping financial companies in very narrow fields of enterprise. These policies were put in place as a result of the losses experience during the panic of 1910 and the Great Depression.

In the 1970s, Carter started to dismantle the regulations. Reagan went completely bonkers doing it. Clinton erased the last tariffs with NAFTA and GAT. The Bushes finish the middle class off allowing the financial institutions to become legalized gambling institutions. The lack of anti-trust enforcement has allowed financial institutions to become too big to allow them to fail. If they are too big to fail, they are too big to exist!

One of our biggest problems today is the amount of money it takes to run for public office. I do not believe there is such a thing as a political contribution. I believe there is bribery and extortion, probably a combination of the 2, but everyone who gives enough to matter expects access and a return on the investment. Too many politicians look at it as a career to get all they can rather than work for the good of the whole. They use their office to campaign for higher office.

Most people will never hear the truth out of the media. All the papers, TV and radio outlets are controlled by about 4-5 corporations. A couple years ago, a pair of anchors refused to go on the air on FOX and tell a blatant lie. They were fired. They sued. Eventually the courts held the media had no obligation to tell the truth.

As it stands now, we need anti-trust actions, higher taxes on the top incomes to bring the asinine compensation packages back to reality and put dividends back into the stocks our kids and grandkids are supposed to invest in for their retirement years, and we need tariffs just like every other country uses to protect their jobs.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Carver, the wishes of the Founding Fathers is very relevant today. We are in precisely the same predicament they were in during the 1780’s when they were writing the Constitution. There was great unrest as the veterans had been paid with worthless inflated Continentals. They had just gotten out from under a monarchy. Today our money is getting more and more worthless. We are under an elite ruling class which controls the government. If you read a few of the quotes of Washington, Jefferson and Madison to name but a few, you will see how remarkably applicable they are today. Human nature hasn’t changed in 5,000 years of recorded history.

One thing they wanted to prevent was the growth of an elite gentry or ruling class. That is what Europe had been under for the previous 500 years. Today, the gentry is corporate entities. In the 1870’s, they were ruled to have all the rights of an individual. If that is true, then they should go to jail or at least the highest officers should. Instead they pay criminal fines to the government. A few million dollars out of a multi-billion dollar income is merely a cost of doing business just like all the other costs of payroll, materials and equipment. There is no real incentive for them to work for the good of anything but the CEO’s bonus. To that end, they control our elected officials by controlling the media and re-election budgets.

At the end of the Regan Administration, it was reported he was being paid a million dollars to make a speech in Japan. At the time, I wondered what he did to earn that pay off ? Since then, all the presidents have used the office to make big money. Probably the most visible is Clinton. It has been said that all the CEOs of large corps are committing felonies and I believe all the presidents since Regan to be felons.

“[W]here there is no law, there is no liberty; and nothing deserves the name of law but that which is certain and universal in its operation upon all the members of the community.”—Benjamin Rush, letter to David Ramsay, circa April 1788

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

JFK said

“Ask not what your country can do for you, rather what you can do for your country”

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Topo,

I don’t agree with some of your conclusions but that was a great history lesson. Thank you. I love that stuff.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

the price of gasoline has gone from almost $1.50 a litre down to 0.88/l…............good indication the economy isnt very good.

Iraq and the assumption Americans went in there to protect oil supplies to the USA is just plain BS…......The bulk of the USA’s oil comes from Canada, Irag is almost insignificant. The fact that they didnt find WMDs doesnt mean they didnt exist.

I am acutely aware that the recession is far from over and I dearly wish that my better half agreed as she has done little if anything to be what I call a little bit “frugal”..............she just bought a new car, new shoes for the kids, new binders and pencil cases, rep hockey for the boy, figure skating for the daughter, University for the eldest boy, another daughter in school, new throw carpets for the doorways (have no idea what was wrong with the old ones) new curtains for the kids rooms and a social itinerary like the Queen of England…...........there sure as sh!& isnt a recession in this house. Satalite TV where we have more channels then I count…..................jeeeeesh.

I think the USA is getting hosed just like me but that said and for what its worth…....and none of my business but your health care system sucks because as a nation, if you cant take care of the people who need help then whats the point? I know that if I get sick, I can go to any hospital from one side ofthe country to the other and get help without breaking the bank.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Topo,

Great post, thank you.

The last few posts on this thread have been very interesting. This is the type of debate I was hoping for.

Topo, although I don’t agree 100%, your posts were thoughtful, insightful, well laid out and a most interesting read. I had to go over to wiki for more info on a couple topics in fact! Very stimulating, thanks for typing your thoughts up.

Regards,
JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
Thomas Jefferson

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ You can be tired, or you can be broke, but you should never be tired and broke.

Iraq and the assumption Americans went in there to protect oil supplies to the USA is just plain BS……...The bulk of the USA’s oil comes from Canada, Irag is almost insignificant. The fact that they didnt find WMDs doesnt mean the
they didnt exist.

Roman, it wasn’t about Iraq’s oil. We wanted to protect Saudi Ararbia, Kuwait, etc. Read the article from Woolsey I posted where he talks about oil is a commodity. It doesn’t matter where we buy it from. The price will go up if the world supply goes down. I would be very happy if oil hadn’t figured in. Can I prove it did, no. I hope it didn’t but I think differently.
Also, I pointed out that Saddam had WMDs. When the war started there were reports of semis, or is it lorries, heading into Syria. Maybe we didn’t find them because we didn’t look in the right place. Seems strange he had used chemical weapons and then just decided to quit making them, doesn’t it.
I supported going into Iraq for the reasons given. I felt he was a danger to world peace. Now with hindsight, the cost/benefit anaylsis is getting out of whack.

As for our healthcare, anybody can walk into a hospital and get care here. For life threats, especially. My wife is a nurse and has asked people why come to the ER for minor stuff. She’s been told “I have to pay my doctor. Here I don’t have to”. Amazing, to me. The problem with using the ER for healthcare is they treat acute problems but a chronic problem will kill you over time.
Yes, we have problems. Glad to hear you don’t have any in your country.
I’d like to ask you and Scotsman some questions about what we are told concerning your healthcare but this probably isn’t the best forum for that. But it would help with my knowledge of the discussion. Do you mind if I PM you about it?

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

I’m old school. I believe in personal responsibility. You break it: You bought it. To my mind, anyone who supported invading Iraq must support rebuilding Iraq if they have any personal honor. I was 100% opposed to intervention from the moment W. said “Axis of evil.” for several reasons.
1) A tribal leader becoming king/emperor/dictator/tyrant has historically been the norm in that part of the world. We aren’t going to change that.
2) I didn’t want our troops inserted between the Sunni and Shia communities. They haven’t solved that dispute in 500 years. How are we?
3) I didn’t want to pay for a war. I’m cheap.
4) I was a Navy medic back in the day. I saw what war does first hand. It sucks a big f _ g root.
5) Though I believed Saadam had chemical weapons aplenty (the nuke and biological threat never seemed plausible to me) I felt that if we didn’t get control of all, 100% of the chemical weapons in the first 24 hours of the campaign we in the US would be at a much greater risk. If I were on guard duty at a chemical weapons site when someone invaded the US I’d give the stuff to anyone who would use it against my enemies. There would have been no faster way to get WMD’s into the hands of bin Ladin types.

I’ve got to get back to work. There’s a craftsman captains bed waiting for box joints, but I’ll pay my share for rebuilding Iraq because I’m part of the American team. Even if the coach let a grudge and the twittering cheer leaders influence his play choice.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

“Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.” —John Quincy Adams

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Thank G** I’m what can be termed as “old” being within several years of the expected life span for men in Canada. I don’t have a University education but I do have many years of observation of what is happening around me. Being a child of the great depression, I have memories that I wish I didn’t. It bothers me when I hear fools like the Governor of the Central Bank of Canada declare that the “recession is over”. It bothers me
when I hear not one word of blame assigned by those who should know that interest rates that ignore risk
caused this mess. Further, such interest rates are still being supported in the Industrial World.
Suppose you are a “saver” instead of a “spender”. Do you think loaning the Government or a bank $100,000 & after 12 months being paid $1750 to $2000 in interest is a fair return on your investment when real inflation has been running at over 6% for the last 10 years ?
And tell me….how come, if business is so efficient whenever they get into trouble they always line up at Government asking for taxpayer handouts ? Talk about socialism…. I call those Businesses “Corporate Welfare Bums”. You better hope Government ineptness does not continue & a stop is put to financial foolishness & that the current recession does not slide into Global recession because the only thing that broke the last recession was WW11.

-- Lee

You sound like my mother:-)) Deregulation of financial instutitions that allow (promoted) unreasonable risk amoung those who were stupid enough to think it will never happen again screwed us all. I agree with your analysis of saving.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

That is one interesting photo. There is a silver lining to everything. first off the world was producing to much ” junk” . I am a true believer based on fact that our world produces waaaaaay to much useless items just for the shelf at the dollar store. Everybody was after the short term buck at any cost. It just imploded. The truth is it has nothing to do with the war, nothing to do with this or that. It was inevitable…........We need to find other constructive ways to survive as human beings than selling one countries junk to another. Mind you I am not talking about the many useful product that any country has to offer. We just have to many that nobody really “needs ” . Hey …....also think of the fuel that is being saved while the ships, trucks, etc….sit for a rest !!!!! I think the downturn is a opportunity for people to ask themselves is what they do for a living constructive and long term or is it for a quik useless buck to make of your fellow American neighbor. Just for thought !!

Makes me think of one time watching how they made stuff on TV & they showed a machine capapble of turning out 1million 12 gallon plastic gas cans a day. yup…a million. What in heck do you need production like that for ?

Lee

-- Lee

I think I might be able to clarify a few things:

Jimmy Carter gutted foreign intelligence. Ronald Reagan didn’t care about foreign intelligence beyond the USSR. It wasn’t a priority under the elder Bush, Clinton, nor the beginning of Bush’s administration.

We’ve had to play catchup when everybody else has been playing the whole game and we’re walking in late in the 4th quarter. Because of this we rely heavily on other nations’ foreign intelligence. Israel is better at it than anybody in the history of the world. They’re a country the size of Rhode Island who face the constant threat of extinction tempered with the memories of the Holocaust. Saddam was so paranoid he duped each and every one of his generals into thinking he had other things going on the rest of them didn’t know about. Iraqi Generals acting as informants for Mossad legitimately believed they still had WMD’s. That was good enough for the Senate, Congress, and the President. Above and beyond that, Iraq has been violating the terms of surrender from the Gulf War anyway (the ‘pinpoint bombing’ evidently didn’t get the point across.)

The 9/11 report clearly demonstrated that Iraq as a sovereign nation, and Saddam himself, had nothing to do with 9/11. That having been said, to deny that Iraq has become a front in the war on terror is wrong. The evidence is more than compelling.

I think it might have been Milton Friedman one time who was getting grilled in front of Congress for changing his mind on a hot issue. When accused of being a flipflopper, he said “When the facts change, my opinion changes. What do you do sir?”

With production in the millions of an item a day, yiou change the dies and make something else tomorrow; then, something differnet the day after that.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Jason, you are just about spot on with your abbreviated analysis. Though I think your football metaphor needs a little tweaking. To me the USA is that 6’4”, 250 lb. runs like a deer looks like Adonis NFL rookie quarterback who knows how to play the game but really doesn’t have a clue about the speed, intensity, and down right nasty, sneaky subtleties the old hands bring to the field every Sunday. But the fans in the bleachers insist this guy start every game. It usually takes three years to season a QB and I figure we’re in about game twelve of season one. We’ve won more than half our games which indicates how strong and talented we are, but if we don’t learn from some of the old hands on our side it’s going to be a more painful season than it needs to be.

Which brings me to the blasphemous suggestion of who we should be asking advice from in the ”War on Terror” , Viet Nam. They waged a successful five decade long ‘terrorist’ insurgency/war for independence against both veteran and rookie world powers, and has since integrated itself into the world community in a very civilized way. Men who once fought there travel there as tourists now. There are huge differences between the situation in Nam 1918 – 1972 and Afghanistan now, what ever those differences may be, the Vietnamese have a perspective that could be very useful. If I were Hillary, I’d be having regular chats over coffee with Pham Gia Khiem or the old hands that taught him.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Oh, I apologize for getting off on a geo-politics tangent. We aren’t out of the current recession. The world economy as a whole is still inching downward. Anyone who says otherwise should put on a flight jacket and hang a mission accomplished banner across the front of their house. But the world economy is now out of critical danger of total collapse. My background in Navy medicine leads me to the metaphor that the Bush the second administration was the field corpsman who slapped on the sloppy bandage and started the IV that kept us from bleeding to death (Oh it pains me so to give the Bush folks positive credit for anything). The Obama administration is the surgical team repairing the damage that still could kill us if not dealt with.

Who was the enemy that shot us? We did it to ourselves. Four successive American administrations either de-regulated or refused to regulate business. Governments around the world bought in to the game quick as you please, no protests that I can remember. We elected the folks that let things get out of hand. Dwight Eisenhower warned us what the business community would do if you didn’t keep them in check. Jimmy Carter chastised us to be a family that lived within our means. Laziness and greed laziness and greed.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

WOW this is an interesting conversation. I usually don’t comment on these types of things since you will never convince anyone else they are wrong but I am going to break my own rule…. What I find laughable is how inconsistent many of these comments are.
As an example people who blame Bush for the war in Iraq and somehow seem to overlook all the others who were all for entering into that conflict. Was the conflict just? I can’t answer that, but I am sure history will. The lens of history seems to change perspective of things through time. I don’t see how somehow overlooks all those who also fanned the flames for invasion and war and WMD’s and all that and then drops it all on Bush. In the case of the folks that were all for it until it went south, and then turned like the snakes they really are really makes me sick. I respect those that were against the war from the start I may not agree with them but, at least they were true to their convictions.
I know that our government is spending on a level that is unsustainable and at some point these huge debts we are running up under the current Obama and also the end of the Bush administrations are going to have to be paid back. The fed printing money and increasing the amount of dollars in circulation is going to cause inflation at some point. I just read that the fed is talking quietly about having to hike interest rates much higher and doing it very quickly. I am not even going to touch on healthcare do we have issues sure, can we find a way to cover 12 million people who truly can’t afford health care absolutely, can we rain in costs perhaps. In order to do this do we need to overhaul the entire system to get that done I do not believe so. I don’t have all the answers as these are problems that have been a long time in the making and will take a long time to fix. I just would like people to stop being so inconsistent in the truth and stop trying to dump the blame on some scapegoat. I also find it curious that the world hated us under Bush and loves us under Obama tell me what has really changed. It seems to me that the world has a lot of the same issues we deal with, and if you look at history the rest of the World really hasn’t much to brag about as far as human rights, and war mongering goes either.

I even thought someone implied that the Constitution is old and not relevant today…...hhhhmmmm that is fascinating

Interesting question about presidential popularity to the rest of the world. I think there are tons of reasons. I voted for Obama so bear that in mind in my reasons and I’m not going to bash W.s policies cause all that will do is get some folks all riled up to no purpose but

A) Could it be that the majority of the world isn’t Caucasian?
B) That you can rise to the top in America only on the strength of your merits? (Boy!!! Electing Obama made America look good. No other country in the world comes close to the reputation for fairness we have now. Has any country in the world elected a leader from one of its minorities? I can’t think of any.)
C) That Obama sounds more intelligent than the last two presidents we’ve had and just as intelligent as George Bush Sr.?
D) Obama isn’t giving other nations of the world my way or the highway choices to make?
E) Obama seems to listen too and use the advice of other world leaders maybe?
F) It seems Obama sets clearly outlined goals (wether you agree with the goals or not) and then transparently acts to achieve those goals. When a guy openly tries to do what he says it makes the world a slightly more predictable place.
G) Could be because he speaks respectfully to folks even when he is actively disagreeing with them?
H) He’s so charming butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth.
I) Really good looking (except for those ears)

I’m starting to ramble. Bye.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

The only problem with the constitution is we have abandoned its principles. A republic is a nation of laws not men. Lately, the scoundrels we have had in the federal gov’t have used their offices for personal gains and gratification.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

They say Australia never went into recession but it will take more than a couple of words to convince my. The reserve bank put up interest rates 25 points yesterday, great if you have investments, not so good if you have a mortgage.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

Hey Grumpy, I love your sign off line, “Bright side of Life” It’s my cell phone’s ring tone. On the other hand your figures on the Fed’s rate hike are just a little off. They raised the rate .25 % or one quarter of a percent. The over night lending rate from the Fed to banks and ‘huge’ commercial borrowers up to 1.5%. That usually means the Federal Reserve Board fears inflation. I don’t see what’s driving their thinking there. I recently read we are expecting a drop in Christmas buying this year from last, and the scuttle butt at one very big (Fortune 500) NJ company is a 40% lay off in Nov. Most of those job losses will be in their overseas operations but it doesn’t bode well for the US balance of trade.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Mmm, Mmm, Mmm, Barack Hussein Obama! Mmm, mmm, mmm The Savior of the world Barack Hussein Obama! Mmm, mmm, mmm, the anoined One Barack Hussein Obama! Mmm, mmm, mmm,

An international site Bob? We could ask Martin about the stats, but I’d be willing to bet that well over 80% of the traffic here is from the US….

Carver as you have been on this site for nearly 700 days you of all poeple know that this is and always will be AN INTERNATIONAL woodworking site and it shows your ignorance when you say comments like the one above and i take great offence to the thought that while many Lumberjocks reside in the united states that does not make it american

-- cut it saw it scrap it

Inflation cause: Billions pumped out by US borrowing to prop up the rich guys gambing in the financial markets is teh threat. It started under Bush and Obama continued it. Of course the Treasury dept says we have to do it, they are all billionaire ex Goldman Sach, Merrill Lynch, Bear Sterns…...................... Execs. Throwing an amount equal to our gross national product out into circulation in a few months is an inflatiionary threat!! The bulk of the population are a moot point, they no longer drive the economy and probably won’t for at least another 30 years if they ever wake up. Check this out from the Wall Street Journal http://lumberjocks.com/topics/10687

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

It’s okay to admit it: you thought you were voting for a more benevolent and wiser version of Tiger Woods when all you got was a smoother version of the black guy at the pool hall trying to con you out of ten bucks.

-- Still clinging to my guns and religion.

Some folks can’t see the forset for the trees, In all countries of the world there a bunch of folk that are pulling the strings of everyone you are talking about. They have the real power, they put them in, they take them down, they set everything up. They make sure there are plenty of distractions keeping you folks talking about the ant hills or the football game or whatever to see the bigger picture.
In the US do you think there is any difference between dems and pubs? They both get bought by the same people and those people pull the strings. They don’t care about anything but their own agenda. It doesn’t matter who you vote for or what you want, it’s what they want to happen to further their agenda that finally get’s done. One of their favorite tools is fear. Now why do you think none of those rich folk were flying comercial for months before 9/11?
What are the chances that on both 9/11 and the Tube Bombings the people who could respond were reinacting the exact scenereo when the real one happened which delayed response and confused the entire rescue? What are the chances of that being a coencidence once, not to mention twice.
Shrub just happens to be reading a book about a goat to first graders holding it upside down did not look surprised at all when told. He said he had seen it on the tv in the hall before he had gone into the classroom Problem was it hadn’t been broadcast yet. Just wondering?

Scottishrose, you are living in a fantasy world with absolutely no connection to reality. How would you possibly know if which rich folks did or did not fly commercial for months before the attacks. You wouldn’t and couldn’t. The people that responded to the attacks were not rehearsing the exact attacks at the time. If you can show anyone where Bush said he already saw it on TV I will be very impressed because it didn’t happen and you or some other conspiracy theorist made it up. Go crawl in a hole and quit polluting the world with this BS.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

Are there unelected people in the world that have more influence than they should? Well, Duuhhh! There always have been. Are a pretty fair number of those extra-super-influential people going to make selfish-short sighted stupid choices, again it’s a no brainer, they will. Because their actions are so supercalifragilistically influential darn near everybody is affected by them. In what most of us consider the “Free World” individual freedom to choose, to act is cherished and protected above almost all else. The super wealthy and influential are exercising that right to individual freedom. In the USA if you are a liberal Democrat with power and influence you support labor unions, lax immigration laws, expanded welfare benefits, increased taxation on large pools of wealth (either individual or corporate). They seem to play to the mob. They try to cast the rich in the villain’s part of our drama. The conservative Republicans seem to want a rebirth of a simpler time from our history, a time when decisions were this or that, when right and wrong seemed a lot easier to recognize. Truth be told, that time never was. But Conservative Republican opinion makers and influence peddlers keep pushing the dream so they can keep their positions of power. If the dream doesn’t sell they push fear. And the middle of the road moderates keep getting kicked in the teeth or bought off by both sides.

Oh, Vern and Abbot, you posts read like racists wrote them for you. Im sure that couldn’t be the case because you would like to be listened to here. Abbot, Osama bin Ladin is clinging to his guns and religion, too.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Oh, Vern and Abbot, you posts read like racists wrote them for you. Im sure that couldn’t be the case because you would like to be listened to here.

The good ole “Race card” is played (as usual) it’s often the first shot fired at almost anyone who is concerned or disagrees with Obama’s policies and those of his admirers. I do not think I made a racist remark Mark. I wrote what was I was thinking. If it helps you to understand I have come across plenty of Caucasian con men as well. I can’t recall coming across any of them at the Pool Hall’s I frequented as a teen in Compton, Bellflower or Long Beach so my comment was directed towards the fact that I have seen Obama use the same techniques and body language running his scams as I did when I would run across the same from black guys at the Pool Hall.

I do understand that some confusion is often present when reading posts on the Internet when you are not looking at the person who is speaking. An example would be when I first read one of your posts in this thread I mistook you for a female poster, then I noticed your name was “Mark”.

As far as my forum signature goes I imagine you know that it is in reference to one of Obama’s dark campaign speeches that took place in Pennsylvania. One difference between myself and Osama Bin Laden: I don’t use my guns and religion for murder. I would bet you had a good idea that was the case as well.

-- Still clinging to my guns and religion.

Apparently “They” haven’t lost an income or two to their households…

-- Trying to follow the example of the master.

hey…yesterday I got out and cut some wood in my shop for a chair I am building…just wanted to share that with my fellow friends and woodworkers…

Hope all have a peaceful day…

matt

-- Matt, Napa, CA...fun is beautiful...just trying to have some fun...

Matt, Guess yiou still have a job if you can afford wood, eh?

I was at costco today. It was really slow, no crowd. One of the gals that has been there for years told me business is way down. Lot of people out of work, no money even for the basics values at Costco! She said the media says it’s over but it isn’t at Costco:-((

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Kinda makes me want to curl up under my table saw in the fetal position.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Mark I Did not say a thing about race. I quite frankly don’t care if the man is purple or green. Further more to call someone a racist is just a cheep ploy to get someone to be silent because you can’t stand to here the truth. It is the lowest of low, and usualy played by someone with a lack of intelect.

Vern and Abbot, to bring up the black guy in the pool hall who wants to fleece you, or Barack Hussein Obama when all of us have heard the Hussein stressed time and again by people in the media call images to mind. And those images aren’t ‘fair and balanced’. Only you guys know in your heart of hearts what you were thinking and feeling when you wrote your comments. But those images are racially charged. They brought forth the response you got from me. I doubt I am the only one who read your comments that way.

I believe you when you say you are not racists. What would you have to gain by lying here. And I apologize for calling you racists. My comment was a smart ass, round the corner, slap shot, debaters trick that could plausibly allow me to deny I called you racists. But we all knew what I was doing.

I’m one of those moderates who is sick to death of getting kicked in the teeth or guilt tripped from both ends of the spectrum. I own guns and am buying one for my son (though I don’t believe gun ownership is a right). I am against capital punishment. I’m a proud veteran and ex-cop. Gays should have full rights. If people attack America we should kill them. While working as a defense contractor in Africa and Saudi for ten years the Muslims taught me to not believe in any god. My son believe in God and Christian Philosophy but my daughter doesn’t because we taught them the Bible and about other religions then let them decide. When you put god and guns together it scares the hell out of me.

Topmax, thank you for trying to moderate the conversation back to the subject. I apologize for the digression. I’ve just gotten to an age where I’m not afraid to confront people for saying things that tick me off. I promise to really try and avoid it in the future.

Mark

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Vern and Abbot, to bring up the black guy in the pool hall who wants to fleece you,

There is nothing racist at all about that comment other then you trying to use racism as a conversational weapon. Obama uses the same attitude, style and body language of several black hustlers I have met over the years in some Pool Halls and watching him on television reminded me of them. Adding in the fact that the guy regularly lies with no conscious whatsoever leads me to believe there isn’t much difference between him and them other then the level of his scam. I also got a chuckle from his wife flat out lying to the people in Copenhagen and the rest of the world about sitting on her father’s lap as a child while together cheering on Carl Lewis while watching the Olympics.

Vern of course had nothing to do with what I said. I guess your trying to toss him onto a comment I made is just another one of your internet tactics.

-- Still clinging to my guns and religion.

Thank you for expanding on your thinking, Abbott. I was totally explicit and unambiguous in my statements to and about you. To me your veracity, is now non-existent.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

May I respectfully point out that your President,-Mr. Obama, has just received the Nobel Peace Prize.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Yes, I noticed that Bob. After reflecting on it a bit I began wondering if being considered for the prize is why he has been stalling on sending the requested troops to Afghanistan. He now joins Jimmy Carter and Al Gore which (to me) seems fitting.

-- Still clinging to my guns and religion.

The moderator of this forum may want to close this thread cause I don’t foresee Abbot or I shrinking from confrontation. This has the potential to get pretty harsh.

Republican President Theodore Roosevelt, the first American recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize would have mixed feelings about Obama’s award. I think he would be deeply embarrassed that his Republican Party had become such a politically inept bully that the international community would feel the need to slap the face of the last Republican President. I think he would be saddened that his award for brokering an end to the Russo-Japanese War was cheapened by giving the same award to a man who hasn’t physically accomplished anything toward world peace ( I personally don’t think plans, promises and a feel good mood for the future qualify someone for such a prestigious award) . And I think Teddy would be concerned for the future of the prizes validity. If Obama doesn’t perform as the Nobel Committee hopes, this year’s award will become nothing more than a negative political statement against G.W. Bush.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

“As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed.”—James Madison

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I love “Little Jemmy” , Topmax. He was smart.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

He was. He, John Vining and my cousin, Roger Sherman, got together one day to write the Bill of Rights :-)) Those few words have kept the Supreme court busy for over 200 yrs!! & they ain’t done yet from what I hear in the media lately.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

And I hope the High Court never will be, Topmax. The American Experiment continues.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

The moderator of this forum may want to close this thread cause I don’t foresee Abbot or I shrinking from confrontation. This has the potential to get pretty harsh.

LOL, geez Mark, relax. You aren’t bothering me.

-- Still clinging to my guns and religion.

Obama isn’t the first to receive an award for doing nothing. Al Gore got one last year for his Global Warming BS.

-- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Mike D.

Well we have seemingly done all the rounds of diversions to the posed question. We have seen various governments, individuals, race, “reds under the bed”, poltical individuals, an ancient constitution dating back to a time when sailing ships were the modern mode of travel. We’ve had an education about wars and their causes, secret “need to know impending disasters”, TV and other media, religeon and a host of other diversionary statements which do not address the original question: “They say we are out of the recession?”
The answer is quite frankly NO.
Understanding greed that brings selfishness and fraud is paramount to actually understanding the root cause of the financial mess we are in. Greed comes from ALL levels, from filthy rich to working class to poor. Nomatter who you are, you have a vested interest in greed that destroys us all.
If you read my other posts you will see I outlined things that do have a serious effect on the lives of every citizen. I will give you this one example of how this is:
There are a lot of “middlemen” companies and services that drain money or play interference. Look at the healthcare industry. Basically it should concern you and your medical provider, but it includes massive insurance companies, lawyers, equipment manufacturing (now overseas), global drug companinies, the goverment (that gets fleesed by the previous and a hosy of othe “ambulance chasers” all wanting their piece of the pie. Should these entities all make a huge amount of money out of citizens?, personally I find it obscene. Do most citizens agree that these entities are greedy and make healthcare finiancially overpowering?. The majority vote on that is YES.
But now for the reality; anyone own stocks/shares? anyone got a 401K that pumps your money into some of these companies as a great stock/shares? Well, well now it seems that citizens are feeding the hand that bites them and makes their life hell. It is time for citzens to take control and stop feeding these sharks. Can you imagine all the profits they are making by reducing the your insurance coverage?, Oh but don’t worry you have a great stock porfolio. WAKE UP

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

LOL, geez Mark, relax. You aren’t bothering me.

—Still clinging to my guns and religion.

I haven’t tried to, Abbot

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Mark,
Mmm, Mmm, Mmm, Barack Hussein Obama! Mmm, Mmm, Mmm
This was first sung by school children, in praise of Obama. It was taught to them by thier teacher.
Now who should we call racist??? Hummm?
Sadly it is often the first person who yells racism who is the biggest racist and bigot, as in Jimmy Carter. who is an anti-Semitic.
I also saw not long ago where every man, woman and child living in the USA are $30,000-$50,000 in debt for the national debt. Now someone please explain to me how being concerned about this. And expressing concern and objection about this is greedy or racist or in any way un-American.

Although it appears Vern took some liberties with the lyrics, here is a link to the song that he was referring to. Yes, some liberals are taking it upon themselves to indoctrinate our children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JmmFeR7CY0

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

I get all my news from SNL and I’m voting for “Jack Squat”

What do I know anyway ?

I’m just a rodeo clown!

gd&r.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob#2

Welcome to the Bull Ring, but mind your step!

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Roger, I got no dog in this fight.
I was just trying to lighten it up as when push comes to shove we are all on the same team I suspect.

It ’s a long way from where I started this thread too!

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Hi mate you know how these threads change everyone know NO politics but we all have aview that we want to put across and you an’t gona please everyone LOL as much as we try to

-- cut it saw it scrap it

I’m skipping my comments I wanted to make concerning some of the posts because it would just continue the rancor.

Back to the original questions. Maybe some of the smart people omn here can explain this to me.

From where I stand I don’t see that the recession is over. Housing, jobs, etc. But, am I seeing the recession or the lingering effects of recession? What is the definition of recession? Can it be over and it take a while to recover? Or is the recession over when we get back to where we were? Of course, if your out of a job these questions don’t make a hill of beans.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

I want to apologize for my earlier postings on this thread to Scottishrose and Scotsman/Alistair. I’m going to stick to woodworking threads (mostly) and leave the politics alone, although it will be difficult I admit as I get a little fired up over the issues (which is exactly why I need to leave it alone).

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

Firecaster,
I don’t think the recession is over and for the love of Pete I can’t get my head around anything the spin doctors are saying. A recession to me is when growth stops and goes into reverse. But I can’t see how we can recover by spending our way out of it (as suggested) with borrowed money and lack of employment. If anyone thinks that spending your way out is the answer, then won’t the borrowed debt catch up with the spending and create another recession? I really don’t have any quality answer to offer, but I can tell you that if I ran my family’s finances as ridiculous as we see here, I would have blown my brains out long ago.

No need for anyone to apologize for heated words and opinions, reading some is great fun, and at the end of the day we are ALL LJ’s ravaging wood.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Firecaster, I’ll take a whack at answering your question.

From a simplified technical standpoint, in the U.S., a recession is generally defined as two consecutive quarters of declining gross domestic product.

Recovery from a recession, as I understand it, is essentially an opposite trend, that is to say, two consecutive quarters of rising gross domestic product.

Which is why recent proclamations in the media of the U.S. recession being over are, at best, premature. We (USA) would need to have fully experienced two full quarters of rising GDP to meet the aforementioned criteria.

Of course, if you ask 10 different economists for an answer to any question, you will gain 10 divergent answers.

Disclaimer: I am not an economist by trade, and have never even played one on TV, but my dad was, and he liked to discuss such things during dinner conversation.

gbvinc,
Ref: your disclaimer , but did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express?

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

gbvinc,
I wish my childhood dinner times had conversations like that. I grew up in a football family. Spin moves to beat a guard, timing a blitz, outside containment, making a QB remember your number were the meat and potatoes of our dinner conversations.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Now that this thread is recovering to something close to the original topic, let me suggest this:
Some , if not most, of the “measures” that we have used in the last 150 years to determine the state of our economies are not valid measurement for todays world.
For example, if you have a injection molding factory in country X capable of making a million gas cans a day you have to locate a market(s) for them.
You will also need transportation for them etc etc.
With disruptions in the world economy you may find that you have more capacity than you have market.
It’s too late for you to downsize as your molds are cut and your materials lie waiting .
You can retool for garbage cans but you face the same scenario.
Generally you produce a million units at a time but only once or twice a year changing tooling every day or every other day to run a different part.

Profits are based on pennies per finished item so producing a half days production merely increases the costs by virtue of tool changes and run restructuring.
And so it goes for those commodities we have all been taking for granted.

This stalling of the markets brings on inflation rather quickly as it strikes directly at a the heart of manufacturing – labor.

Any thoughts ( NON POLITICAL) ?

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob#2,
Absolutely correct – right on the money.
It should also be noted that in this industrial age it is very easy to swamp the market with your porduct whereby you exceed the population growth, hence too many items for a shrinking customer base. Over the past 30, 40 or 50 years those who can remember that many companies have vanished because the products they produced could not gain enough market share to carry on. An example would be the automobile industry: Can you remember that there were many, many more brands of vehicles made? A great deal of those autos made were in most cases good or excellent, but the companies folded because they could not sell enough vehicles to keep them in business. Meanwhile the big three operated at a loss to keep sales strong, now that has got to be crazy!
Now what we need is change, not on the Obama band wagon but a complete rethink as Bob#2 notes that we can’t operate on 150 year old plans and methods, we need to have methods that are suited to the 21st century.

I don’t have any ideas how to solve this problem and I probably won’t until the country and world citizens signal that they really understand the realities and are pepared make drastic changes in tune with the times.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

One problem that exists today is over production. Companies like the auto manufactures produce using the batch method. It’s great if you’ve got customers for what you produce but if you don’t then you’ve got to store your overproduced items and that costs big bucks along with the taxes that are paid on the unsold inventory. Several companies are going with one piece flow or at least right sized production batches based on what the customer orders. Another problem is companies don’t mistake proof their processes.

-- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Mike D.

This is good gentlemen. We are searching for solutions rather than blaming each other.
Coastie, I am reminded of how the Japanese boot strapped their production with limited resources at the time with”just in time inventory” and few finished goods.

I too have no ideas about how to fix this problem but I do suggest that our Governments must learn to back away from the production end of our economies and drastically reduce the number of employees they feel they need.
It’s far too heavy a burden on the tax payers.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Unless everyone just suddenely decides to work toward the good of the whole, then the solution will be political the same as the problems that caused it. Sorry, but that is reality on this earth at this time.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

We need common sense regulations that are linked to the amount of risk to society by economic activity. The riskier the venture the more it needs to be regulated. The larger the venture the more it needs to be regulated. The more broadly integrated the venture the more it needs regulation. I realize this is anathema to our American fiber. About 80% of Americans come from ancestors who put every thing on the line and worked like dogs and risked everything, everything to get something more. There is a gamblers gene in Americans that makes regulations taste like sh_t. I’ve personally been in enough trouble with the authorities in my life to know how much I like rules. But the older I get more I see sense in rules.

It’s the common sense part where any of us part ways. It is common sense to believe “Once you start the regulations where will it end? There is going to be some busy-body who wants to regulate me down to when I can take a crap.” And trust me, guys there are people out there who would regulate toilet times. On the other hand multinational insurance companies (read AIG) that our retirements, life, medical, home, auto, and liability insurance depend on should not be able to gamble on the exotic derivatives market just to please Wall street quarterly performance numbers.

There isn’t a single line in the sand we need to draw. We need to draw lots of lines in the sand cause there are so many levels of risk to society. A mom & pop 5 and dime should not be regulated like Walmart. A family farm (we know what that means, let’s not split hairs) should have less regs and more help then Archer Daniels Midlands or the King Ranch. The lines ought to be clear, deep and written in sand cause we’re going to have to move them as realities change.

I don’t think the real world allows the luxury of sureness. I don’t think we can base our societal decisions on philosophies. They have to based on what works for the moment. The moment is going to change.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

You bring up a lot of very valid pints. I never thought the wholesale deregulation that started in the late 70’s was a good idea. Those regulations were put there to solve the problems of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Having studied economics a little and being honest to a fault formed my opinions. I could see there is a great disadvantage in the business world in honesty and even high moral values. Unregulated capitalism is called capitalism, not because of the capital involved, but because it is a capital crime against humanity.

The analogy I like to use is unregulated football. If we deregulate football to the point there are no rules; anyone can come into the stadium to play. Everyone or anyone cand form alliances with whom ever they choose. A player is free to lie and commit unfathomable moral atrocities. Here, as in the real world, moral players would be eaten up and destroyed; ie, nice guys finish last. The only score is who ever has the ball at a given moment in time. He is the winner. But he can’t win for very long up against the insurmountable odds he faces. There would be no beginning or end of the game.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Topomax , Mark and Bob#2,
You obviously have the ability to see what is wrong with the way we have been inventing ways of during business for many years. I smelled a rat too when I first heard of deregulations particularly those services that were under State price control. When dregulation arrived, everyone and their brother got into the water, telephone and elctricity business – all offering (and paying rewards for swapping providers) deals. I had sales calls and mail shorts coming out the ying yang. The small local water company that operated a well, got swallowed by a bigger fish and in turn another even bigger fish ate them. I am on my third electicity provider and 4th phone company (that went the same way as the water co.)
So what is the net result of deregulation that promoted “choice and price competition”? :——-
I still have a home phone line and get constantly bombarded with package deal offers for phone, TV, Internet plus other things I have no interest in. My original regulated power Co. was TXNM Power, I was forced to get another provider and then another pirated me offering $100 to change. I’m pretty sure the psuedo power companies are just accounting centers as when I have power problems they don’t fix it – guess who does? – you got it – TXNM Power!!!!
My original water provider serviced our small community and was pretty well at it’s max customer usage. Even so they got “bought out” – as I mentioned before. Now we have a huge national water company and they decided to add another community to ours. Guess what – yeah you have it -there is not enough water to go around now. So our base usage rate was shrunk and the cost gone up, our water pressure is too low as too many connections now share the same well, and would you believe we had a notice say our bill will go up as they will have to bring in water from elswhere…..well DUH! was adding more users to a maxed out service logical, so now we must be ready to pay extra for all the new users that we did not have water for in the first place. Worse still in May we received water restriction notices that we could only expect normal water service on Thursday and Sunday !!!!!! Thank you deregulation.
Have you noticed that in many deregulation services large regulated companies were forced into having “competition”. The only things that happened with that is that new companies started up and took a slice of the pie, then one pie slice ate another, then some others got together to make half a pie. Then along comes the original (once regulated) company and gets all the pie back. All that happened was newbusinesses were created and made money, merged and made money and finally return to the original and made money!
Not every deregulation was bad, but most were.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

firecaster -

Yeah, I actually do believe that. It all came out last election. George Bush’s daddy got him a posotion in the Air National Guard. He didn’t even stick that out, leaving early to help with another politician’s campaign. How many boys in VietNam had the opportunity to do that?

As for the Iraq war; we had a front in Afghanistan, we had Al Quaida and Taliban on the run and we damned near caught the bastard most singularly responsible for the Twin Towers bombing. Only to abandon it all to open a new front in Iraq for what turned out to be all the wrong reasons.

Make no mistake, just because we didn’t find WMD’s doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. Eh? We have owned that territory for 8 years now; where are the factories? Where are the storage facilities? Even if the WMD’s were not there anymore, it would have left all sorts of traces where they were made, stored and deployed. Nada, zip, nilch!

Now, 8 years later, neither Iraq nor Afghanistan has any successful conclusion, Al Quaida and the Taliban are resurging and we STILL haven’t caught bin Laden.

Yep, that George Bush is some kind of military genius there!

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

With deregulation and the SEC not bothering anyone in the securities, investment banking or brokerage businesses, there were a lot of companies that were offered to the public by Wall Street that should have never been allowed to go public. One of the penny stocks that was making a lot of news and supposed to be hot about 5 years ago was called Fellowes Energy. I thought I’d put a few dollars in since it was an energy stock that had just signed leases and had new technology to extract oil from shale, I believe.

I suspected it was a scam. Some people go to Vegas to gamble. I do it at home on my PC which would be illegal, but I did it through a brokerage house. Fellowes Energay never amounted much after the initial pop. They had news releases, ect. The Wall Street news wires had it as one of the hottest penny stocks on the market. They had a geologist and a few other employees. I suspected they may never go anywhere, but I put in a few dollars just in case. When the price of oil skyrocketed, they didn’t budge. I think what probably happened is some Wall Street Shysters signed a few oil leases, fed the media a bunch of BS and cashed in when the stock went from a penny to a dollar or 2. Those are just my suspicions after having been any investor dealing with Merrill Lynch for a couple of decades. I finally concluded Merrill Lynch was a criminal organization or totally incompetent. Turns out they were both: they went bankrupt in the last year.

When Eliot Spitzer was NY atty general, he identified them a have committed serious criminal offences, but since no one in corp America goes to jail, they paid a few fines without admitting guilt. Spitzer said people could take his evidence and recover their losses in civil court. There were so many law suits they were combined into a class action. The Feds, under the Bush Admin, brought a 90 year old retired federal judge back to the bench to throw the class action suit out. No individual attys are going to take on a giant financial beast like Merrill Lynch. That is justice in the deregulated late 20th and early 21st centuries.

Millions of people lost their retirement and life savings to the criminal activities and incompetence of Merrill Lynch along with 16 of the other 19 largest commercial brokerage houses in America. When these people are making choices between housing, heat, food and medical care in their 70’s, 80’s and 90’s, Wall Street will have killed far more Americans than any terrorist attack ever will.

Poor old Charles Merrill, who’s name is on Merrill Lynch which grew to be the second largest brokerage in the country, is surely turning over in his grave. He warned his clients in 1929 to get out before the crash. In 1999, Merrill Lynch was using their clients accounts and money to try to prop the price of worthless stocks that should have never been allowed to go public and churning accounts to generate commissions.

Their ace analyst, Henry Boldgent, told his brokers to sell the clients garbage for $200 a share. David Komanski, CEO of Merrill Lynch at that time, went on PBS’s Wall Street with Louis Rukeyser to tell America it was just a few employees joking around. Of course, we know different since Spitzer exposed the corruption running rampant through the entire industry. When Spitzer finished with The brokerages house, he exposed the corruption in the squeaky clean mutual fund industry. That is a fraction of the havoc the deregulation of the financial markets has brought to the baby boomers.

The supposedly unbiased analysts a the brokerage houses generate buy, sell and hold opinions for their brokers to guide clients accounts. During the 2000 Dot Com market crash, out of approximately 6000 opinions issued, only 59 were “sell.” They continued to issue “buys” for some of the most worthless paper ever printed in the history of financial markets. Under pressure for the media, they improved slightly in 2001 by issuing almost 70 “sells.” Those are the only 2 years I remember the figures for. In case you are wondering if I study this crap? No. I remember too much that I wish I could just forget since the feds are not doing anything to clean this mess up. This mess is where our kids and grandkids are supposed to invest their retirement and education dollars!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Topomax ,
I wish others had as good a memory as yours. You certainly have all the details and I find it a good education.
The facts you state are too soon forgotten and the lessons never learned.
Thank you

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

WE need to get back to being a nation of laws instead of money handlers, liars and thieves!!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Topomax ,
Amen to that, but can’t we hang all the lawyers???

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

A few good men brought law and order to Beaverhead County, MT in the late 19th century. I don’t remember the exact count, but I think they hung a murderer, horse thief or other low life every week for about a year. They haven’t had any trouble since :-))

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Topmax, from what I can tell the laws allow most of what has been going wrong. We are still a Nation based on law and not the whim of individuals. That is our saving grace. We have to force our law makers to adjust the present laws so this situation will be more difficult for the pornographically greedy to create.

When companies get “Too Big To Fail” for the good of society, it might be best to regulate them so they can’t fail. Of course a company that is that regulated wouldn’t be nimble to market changes like smaller new competitors. They couldn’t be allowed to take those sorts of risk. They would probably slowly get eaten up like an old bull frog being consumed by guppies. But a gradual change is a whole lot better than a radical one.

Mark

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

HERE’s MY PROBLEM… aside from being an amateur woodworker I am one of 200 or so people in America who is actually an expert on healthcare finance. The short answer is about 50% of your premium goes to pay providers for the amount of cost the government does not pay. A grocer gets $100 in exchange for 100 food stamps. Between Medi-Medi & Tricare a hospital gets about $25. The average insurance company pays $75 for the same service. This all started in 1983 (Reagan & Tip O’neil) with the Prospective Payment System under which the governement decided they should not have to pay the full amount charged. Ever since then the government’s reimbursement as a percent of cost has declined and, not coincidentally, insurance reimbursement has increased in proportion. Big surprise.

With a healthy 5% profit margin included, a hospital’s actual cost to manufacture healthcare is about $50 per $100 charged. Do the math. What would happen if the grocer got $25 per $100? Imagine further that every other person in the check out line paid $25. What would the grocer have to charge to those who pay full price to make up for the amounts not received? Add to this the fact it is illegal for the 1,300 insurance companies to compete across State lines and you have a governement protected oligolpoly, just like Russia.

Now add to this the amount of healthcare that is prescribed to avoid or pre-defend lawsuits (Punitive damages). Now add to this the amount of uncompensated care provided to illegal aliens and those who make too much money and are too young to qualify for Medicaid but cannot afford insurance.

There are real, tangible, and measurable reasons why healthcare finance is such a mess, therefore it can be fixed. Now you haven’t heard any of this on your news have you? Why not? Why is noone asking the question, Why are premiums so high? If you managed to read this far you can now count yourself as one of the very few Americans who has an understanding of the financing of 1/6th of the US economy.

Just like the mortgage mess, the government blames the private sector for the problems it creates. They accuse them of greed, and waste, and inefficiency, and they make the case that they should take over.

Now you know the rest of the story.

-- tim hill www.newcalshop.com

It may seem that bringing health care reform into this discussion is a dangerous digression away from the topic of recession alleviation. That could lead to acrimony. As our West Coast wood meister (pretty stuff coming out of your shop, Tim) points out It’s 1/6th of our economy. If we don’t take that into account we aren’t looking at the big picture. But we shouldn’t use names or political parties in our discussion. Some Congressman or another has introduced a broad range health care bill every year since the mid 1950’s. That being the case both political parties and every political personality (in or out of govt.) you can name share equally in the present situation.

I don’t want this forum to be just a place to vent frustration. I want our discussion to inform and shape how I write emails to my congressman, senators, governor, and state representatives. All of them will have some influence on that 1/6 of our budget and the broader subject of recession avoidance. So if we all could follow Officer Joe Friday’s advice… “Just the facts.” avoid using our favorite TV talking head (all of them are interested in ratings more than facts) as a primary source and talk about this as problem solving and not the blame game we could have an infinitesimally small impact on what our country is like in ten years.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Yeah, I actually do believe that. It all came out last election. George Bush’s daddy got him a posotion in the Air National Guard. He didn’t even stick that out, leaving early to help with another politician’s campaign. How many boys in VietNam had the opportunity to do that?

Was everyone in the Guard or Reserves a draft dodger? Or just the people you dislike. He was a fighter pilot. That wasn’t just a weekend assignment after basic training. Dan Rather lost his job for trying to make more of this than there really was. He had permission to take a loa just before getting out anyway.
BTW, what about Al Gore, who was a photographer in the army and had body guards assigned to a Senator’s son in Vietnam. He even stated he was joining to preserve his future electability.

An aside about Vietnam, only about 20% of the troops there were actual combat troops. (According to
Stolan Valor by B. G. Burkett, great book dealing with some of the lies foisted on us)

Where were the factories? I don’t know. When he used chemical weapons against the Iranians and the Kurds where did he get them from? Again, I don’t know but I do know it doesn’t take much room to make chemicals. There are small meth labs all over making dangerous chemicals.

Was it a mistake to start a second war before finishing the first one? Ok, something we can agree on. But to make a statement about what kind of military genuis Bush was? Come on, again you’re forgetting that Congress has the responsibility to declare war. They also control the purse strings. There is also a bunch of gens. and adms. that advise the president. They’re called the Joint Chiefs, CINCs, etc. Does govt make mistakes, yes, but we don’t live in a dictatorship. If enough people had said NO, congress wouldn’t have approved the Iraq war.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Topomax, I love reading your analysis. Too bad we all live so far apart. I’d love to sit down with you and some others on here for a friendly discussion of these issues.

but since no one in corp America goes to jail, they paid a few fines without admitting guilt.

I believe this is the main problem. If these people were held responsible for their theft by deception maybe greed wouldn’t be the biggest factor in their decision making. Problem is, most of our lawmakers are lawyers or in bed with the rich. I’m not against the rich, I’d like to be also. But I think you can make it without destroying other people. Seems I heard one time “The love of money is the root of all evil”. I think we’re proving that again. Just as the robber barons did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Firecaster, most people don’t realize the time and effort required on the parents to get a kid to Eagle. Well done.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

I make no pretense to understand health delivery in the U.S.
I must admit that it seems strange from my perspective having lived under a universal health care system all of my adult life.
There are several delivery models around the planet that offer universal care.
It may well be worth the effort to find out what makes each one tick before instituting any changes to the current model.
I’m not saying that they all could not use some tweaking but it’s prudent to know where the rocks are.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Mark,

I truly believe if more men would spend time in a healthy relationship with their sons and other boys we wouldn’t need to be talking about some of these problems we are on this thread.

Too many men are busy feeding their greed for money, fun, adventure, etc. to waste it on teaching kids how to be healthy, productive, giving, careing, honest adults.

Of course, I had and I’m still having fun with the troop. I just quit being scoutmaster but I still have about 20 sons. They make me feel good cutting up with me, asking for help, etc. so in that respect I guess I’m being selfish also. My picture is of me on a particularly hard day at Philmont. 10 days of backpacking in the mountains with my oldest and 6 other boys. What a great experiance.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

“When he used chemical weapons against the Iranians and the Kurds where did he get them from?”

Primarily, the United States of America.

-- -- Neil

About health care and the economy, let me preface all my comments with a disclaimer. I have personally profited more from the present health care situation than it has cost me. We invested in the health care industry in the 90’s . 99% of Americans have put some money in my bank account/retirement.

Tim, when the same 16% of your household budget doesn’t balance every month you know you have to make adjustments. Where do we make the adjustments?

There is no argument that the uninsured add a bunch to my insurance costs (Conservatives say $800/yr. Liberals say $900/yr. per family of four) Depending on who you listen to that’s between 8% & 10% of the price of insurance premiums.

I’ve read three reports this year (and I’m in the middle of another right now) that indicate far more is spent on un-needed tests, procedures, surgeries and medications. These are physician decisions (yes he/she confers with you but they decide) and from each of them the physician profits. The cost of legal protection for doctors doesn’t come close to the physician’s profits made from the un-needed tests, procedures & etc.

One of the companies I have an interest in (very conservative, very large, all of you here and abroad have used their products) is using the following report as one primary source in their long term business plan.

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/publications/US_healthcare/

Several of Tim’s concerns are directly addressed in the report. If you are willing to register at the site (doesn’t cost anything) you can read the full report (130 plus pages) the executive summary ( 30 pages) and even if you don’t want to register you can access the interactive bullet points presentation (17 pages).

What I have found very interesting is how insurance companies make profit from each transaction they handle. For a single necessary blood test ordered by your doctor it is usual for an insurance company to have made a small amount of profit for, issuing you a health benefits card, maintaining your health/insurance records, billing the co-pay, billing the appointment, receiving payment from you for your insurance, receiving payment from your employer for your insurance, making payment to the doctor, making payment to the lab & etc. & etc. & etc. If it’s worth doing : It’s worth getting paid for. Sometimes I think of the insurance industry as the ultimate Zen meditation for quantitative mathematicians (OK, bean counters). They can count the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin, and give each a proportional value. Which makes the AIG debacle much more damning. Many people there knew what was coming, and still it came.

This post has certainly degraded to rambling.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Dollar faces long journey downward

More to the point of my original topic here I noticed this article today that suggests that the U.S. Dollar will decline and possibly be withdrawn as the indicator for commodities . (i.e. Prices for oil, gas, gold etc)

Of interest to me as a bond investor was this paragraph:
“Australia’s decision to raise interest rates last week hurt the dollar and for good reason. It demonstrated that as a recovery happens the action will not be in the U.S., but in resource-based economies and in places, mostly in Asia, where the best prospects for productive investment lie. The U.S., where the Federal Reserve will likely need to keep rates low for a very long time, will have a hard time capturing the imagination of investors”

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/10/13/dollar-faces-long-journey-downward/

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob#2 Good universal healthcare models can be seen in other civilized countries and studied. But this is a business in the us and so the information we get is distorted and condenming “facts” about the way other countries do it. Mark Sadly, the family concept in the us has changed from sitting down with your family for a meal and doing things as a family. Today we don’t have time for our kids, it’s easier to give them money and be told to “get lost”. Scouting was a great education for me as a kid, I learned a lot more than just tieing knots.
We maybe a nation based on Law, but to not invoke it is “baseless” lol eg: Illegal immigration, why not enforce the Law? Or is it that you can cherry pick which laws to enforce and those not to enforce???

I vote Topamax runs for pres and forms a cabinet fro LJ’s, also a new “enforced” law that every congrsessman and senator has to be a Lumberjock

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Roger,

From one Roger to another; I like your idea of Topo for POTUS. I want to be his Sec of State so I can travel alot and talk to people I’ve never seen before.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

“When he used chemical weapons against the Iranians and the Kurds where did he get them from?”

Primarily, the United States of America.

Proof?

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Bob, as a child I remember the British Pound was only slightly less important than the US dollar in setting world commodity prices even though the UK was still experiencing a post war economic depression. Depression with a big D because of the expense of the war and their being the only country that paid its war debt to the US. It could certainly be in the cards that another currency or market basket of currencies replace the USD as the international unit of monetary exchange. Because finance type people don’t like radical change the switch over would take at least a decade. The largest holder of US Treasury Bonds is the Peoples Republic of China. They want the Dollar to keep its role for now. It would only be in China’s national interest to suddenly sell out and crash the bond market if it were at war with most of the rest of the world. Crashing the US bond market would effectively destroy the present world economy. If you see the Chinese buying less American debt, and see them buying a significantly larger amount of bonds from other nations, get out of the US bond market. That’s what Wall street will be doing already.

In the short term ( 2 years) I think a weaker Dollar is a good thing. It drives up the cost of goods imported from countries who’s currencies aren’t linked to the USD and make US produced good and services more affordable to US consumers and the rest of the world. Good for employment here.

Roger, of course law enforcement is cherry picked. It always has been. In times when the influential want immigrant labor (legal or otherwise) as long as it’s politically expedient ignore the laws. When the expediency ends, enforce the law. When taxpayers aren’t willing to pay more to enforce the law, just don’t fund the enforcement. I would be hard pressed to find any law those exigencies haven’t been, are and will be applied to.

And what’s really sad about the state of fatherhood, Roger is how much those fathers are missing. The most fun thing I’ve ever done is be a dad. I mean fun like playing with RC Airplanes fun. It’s not as exciting as chasing women, but I remember moments with my kids far more intensely than my youthful dalliances.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Mark, One of the indicators I noticed recently is that China is making heavy investments in gold for instance and also making some huge long term agreements for other commodities.
I thnks they anticipate (are experiencing) a decrease in exports to the U.S. ans subsequently honing up trade relations with countries like Brazil, Canada etc where resources are still relatively cheap.

I’m not sure what to make of this yet but it does seem they are at least hedging.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT !

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

More from the home of Monty Python! <g>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8020721.stm

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Sounds like the chinese are hedging their bets a little. Everything I’ve ever read about Chinese culture seems to describer them as pretty conservative people. Considering chinese history over the long haul and how they have gotten back into capitalism, the communism years may look like less than a burp.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

I was born during WWII in England at a hospital that was being bombed at the time, My dad was in the army from 1939 to 1946 and served just about everywhere in an AA unit. During that time and for at least 10 years after the war life was hard because of so much destruction and shortages We as a family all pulled together and we were gratefull that the NHS was started in 1949 as nobody had any money to get medical help. The US helped with lend lease and indeed was paid back every single penny (yes the only country to do this) as it was a pledged honor to do so just as it was a pledge honor to come to the aid of Poland. The UK is basically an honorable nation who won’t let you down.
I had a great childhood and learned from my dad to do needed chores and house fixing. My parents “kept me for 5 years while I was an apprentice and 2 years after I left home and married. I used the experiences of my folks to do everything right and with honor in the marriage. My “religious” wife did a “runner” with my womanizing workmate and left me with a 6 , 4 and 1-1/2 years old kids and a dog. She vanished somewhere and because the legal system then did not award the father custody – just to pay their keep, I took my kids and dog to Africa to start anew.. I sued for divorce and sole custody in the high court and won as she did not even contest anything. I had a hard time as a full time working dad but my children alsways came first. I was in Africa close to 4 years before I accepted a teaching position here in the US. I’m a legal immigrant and I know how long it takes and what it costs and how they investigate you right down to you navel. So I started again here, just me and my kids and waited until they went off to marry before I looked around for myself. My kids are not brilliant or well off but they do have a sense of responsibility and honor to get them through life. I now have 13 grandchildren (must be something in the water) and I love family gatherings. My goal is for me to learn enough woodworking to teach my grandkids to do something useful with their hands and have fun.
When I say “been there – done that” you can imagine that I am the real McCoy not lip service.
BTW: China is very active in Africa – that’s where most of the strategic minerals are – we need to keep and eye of them for sure.
BTW: Yes I am an American citizen and also still a British subject – depending which site of the Atlantic I am on. I am very proud and honored to be a member of the 2 premier countries of the world. The only difference I see between the two is that you need to wear high boots here to keep your feet out of it.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

firecaster: START here. There’s lots of proof.

http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/riegle1.html

-- -- Neil

With 2.8 billion people, if China educates only 7% of her population then she will have more educated people than the entire population of the U.S.

Please don’t take that as a put down but merely a talking point.

When we decided to “gift” China with most of our technology and the know how to use it we essentially tossed out the opportunity to find useful employment in our own countries for individuals most suited to life in the manufacturing sector.
A lot of them now make up the welfare roles or social assistance and generate horrendous administrative costs to the taxpayer.
Nobody realized we were dealing with a huge super power just waiting for the opportunity to move forward.

There is no turning back now.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob#2

dont take this the wrong way but isn’t the US and UK that are bank rolling china’s education so that we can use them for our own gains i mean most of our companys have moved that way in the world for thier profits not ours as a nation

( just my thoughs on a very sensitive subject that i dont think any of us truely understand )

Andy

-- cut it saw it scrap it

Andy, you’re right that they left only thinking of themselves but…
why do we still consider them corporate citizens and accord them the benefits of lower taxes and trade agreements?
Should there not be a line somewhere on the import of products that realistically determines “US content” for example?
With and impending “carbon tax” should be not consider these “fair-weather corporations” as primary polluters rather that beneficiaries of carbon credits?
If I have to follow the regulations set here for manufacturing should the off shore folks not also have to meet the same standard or pay a tariff to make the goods similar in price?

These area are never addressed fully at any summit and always swept under the table for some other immediate gain.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Did any of you guys take note of a report yesterday about the H flue?
Apparantly there is only one small company in Dallas that still makes surgical masks – the rest have been outsourced overseas. Now we need billions of these masks urgently and the Dallas Co. can only do so much. So if push comes to shove you can bet that these overseas manufacturers will see to themselves first before even considering export us some. -The Dallas Co. warned about this 2 or 3 years ago but nobaody listened.
Yeah, exporting manufacturing was a smart idea to make money – but now that has rebounded as a health risk for us. Smart, very smart.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

Bob#2

Thats easy to answer the rich get richer and the rest of us suffer for that cause and that doesn’t matter hows in power that life for 99% of US and UK citizens

In the UK at the moment we fighting two wars that we dont want to be in then the gov parties are saying the same old crap that they can do better than the other and we all have our views but nether mine or your goverments will listen to what we really want

Yes what happened in the US 8 years ago was horrific but because of the lie’s that we have been told by these people that are surpose to protect us we are now losing everything we stood for freedom of speach the right to have an opinion with out causing offence to the bug on the ground next to you

we are being told in the UK that we have to send more troops to a country that has never wanted us there in the first place

I have a question to my US friends do they think that after 8 years of 9/11 do they really want thier young soldiers dieing daily in a country that does not want them there

we have the tech to find anyone in the world that we want christ we look at the end of our galaxy everyday
personally i think the US and UK goverments know Exactly were certain people are and thats the way they want it i’m affraid we all live in fear and the goverment want us like that then they have the power to do what they like NO QUESTIONS ASKED

Again guys just my opinion

Andy

-- cut it saw it scrap it

Roger welcome to GREAT BRITAIN LOL ….... we slod are manufacturing rights years ago we’r even payed not to grow bloody food now you tell me the right in that

-- cut it saw it scrap it

firecaster: START here. There’s lots of proof.

Beener, I’ll take your word for it. Maybe that’s why we knew they had them.
We supported Iraq in the ‘80s because we hated Iran. It came back to haunt us. We supported the future Taliban and Al-Queda against invasion because we hated the Soviets. It came back to haunt us. (Sometimes I think the isolationists pre WWI were right) As I said above about 50 posts ago, hindsight is 20-20. I don’t know that these outcomes could be forseen. I wonder what we’re doing now that will bite us 10 years from now.
Oh wait, now we’re back to the economy.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

newTim, good example of cost-shifting as a presumably unintended consequence of government meddling in the marketplace.
I would look back a little farther and evaluate the impact that wage and price controls had on healthcare costs. While the immediate effect of the early 1970’s controls was to stem the tide, inventive companies, wanting to attract and retain quality employees, increased usage of health insurance coverage as attractive benefit gained through employment. The unintended consequence was to largely remove the consumer from the payment part of the equation, resulting in escalating costs.
Just one of many examples that contribute to where we are now. I am absolutely opposed to government running much of anything except our national defense and roads. Their track record is abysmal.
Anywho…getting off topic, so I will get back to my project.

Mark, When companies get too big to fail, they are too big to manage. Antitrust laws deal with that, but they haven’t been used in the last half century. The law does allow a lot of what has been going on because the regulations allowing banks to make risky investments have been repealed. The Securities and Exchange Commission is a total waste of taxpayers money. They haven’t scrutinized the markets for the last 40 years. They didn’t bother to follow up on the Bernie Madoff tips they got while he made off with the biggest financial fraud in the history of the world.

Newtim, I think there might be more than 200 people in this country that know how healthcare got screwed up by the government causing the hyperinflation. I don’t remember when I became aware, but in the early part of this decade I was explaining that to members of my local electrical workers union. Health care was taking a bigger and bigger cut of their paychecks at the same time the pension benefits were being lowered because of market losses in both programs. I told them to view the government under funding Medicare as a hidden tax. If I knew about it, there must be a lot of people who know even though you never hear about it in the media.

Firecaster, It is hard to find anyone who knows enough about this stuff to discuss it. Most people just look dumbfounded when I try to talk about this stuff.

Thanks for running me for prez, but the big money boys would have me executed in short order. I don’t really believe there has been a competent president working for the best interests of the people of this country since I was a little kid and I’m 60 now.

We are not a nation of laws anymore. I believe Jimmy Carter was the last president who wasn’t a felon before he came to office and or committed felonies while in office. The laws are not enforced. They are not enforced against the corporations that fund the political campaigns. I have concluded the law is just used to control or intimidate anyone who they want to keep in line. The difference between the US and Mexico is the subtle corruption here. It is practiced openly on the street in Mexico.

I mentioned Eliot Spitzer’s efforts to clean up Wall Street previously. I was surprised he wasn’t taken out. He stepped on a lot of billionaire toes! Just the other day I heard how they set up the sting with the prostitute to take him out of the political scene permanently. Anyone in political office had better be above reproach or be roasted.

I missed China disconnecting their currency from the dollar. They have a big stake in the dollar not dropping too far since they hold so many US bonds. They hold so many, they dare not not show up at the auction and just let them go with no buyers. It doesn’t surprise me they are taking commodity positions to hedge their bets, especially with the dollar falling. It remains to be seen whether or not they can build a viable economy without the US market place driving it. Our corporate citizens have done a very good job of giving them all the technology including the ability to send us an intercontinental ballistic missile with atomic warheads attached. They did that during the 1990s so they could launch communication satellites cheaper. The Chinese were only getting 1 of 10 into orbit. It was illegal to give that technology to China, but when the investigation started, Slick Willy signed an executive order making it legal. Thanks Slick!!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Topamax,
Great post. At last you have reached age when you know and understand things, those from a different generation mostly are not mature enough or are learned enough to to “get it”. It’s a pity nobody seems to listen to us old farts. I wish you had been running for Prez in the last election – you would have got my vote, the only choices we had were Obummer, citizen Cain attached respectively with Foot in mouth Biden and the far sighted lady neighbour of Russia. It was like an audition for SNL or the Flying Circus.
Unfortunately you are right about the past Presidents, but what can you expect when every 4 years a new King, Emporer, Messiah, Head of State and Head of Government installed – all in 1 person. Most other democracies have a non political Presidential Head of State as the country’s figurehead and a Prime Minister who is political and runs the government of the day.
Just heard that the health insurance companies are not going to pay for premature ejaculation…..it’s coming!

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

a friend of mine always asks, “Why does every generation have to learn the hard way?” Honest people never get elected. The our Constitution is set up we will always have a 2 party system, winner take all, pul this way, then go back that way. Our grankids and great grand kids will be the beneficiaries of this melt down. Our kids genration is screwed!! That is if teh Myan calander is wrong and the world doesn’t end Dec 21, 2012 (I think, date may be wrong, I can’t remember everything!!) :-))

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

You got the date right Topmax. It’ll be my 61st birthday.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Firecater -

Draft Dodger? Wiki covers this pretty well:
During the 1968–1974 period, Presidents Johnson and Nixon decided against calling up National Guard units for service in Vietnam. As a result, National Guard service was widely portrayed as a way to avoid combat. The waiting list for the Guard at that time was extremely long, and there have been charges that young men from influential families were improperly moved to the top of the list.

Ben Barnes, the former Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives and Lieutenant Governor of Texas, stated under oath that he had called the head of the Texas Air National Guard, Brigadier General James Rose, to recommend Bush for a pilot spot at the request of Bush family friend Sidney Adger.

Former Texas legislator Jake Johnson has stated that before General Rose died, Rose told him that he had been responsible for Bush’s acceptance into the Guard.

I’ll let draft-dodger stand, thank you.

Now, don’t get me wrong; I lived during that war and don’t blame anyone for trying to stay out of it. But for that priviliged SOB, whose used his daddy’s influence to stay out of the war, to turn around and question the integrity of someone who did go, was shot at and decorated for it (wiki swiftboating – it was so egregious it became part of the language), was just criminal.

Dan Rather got fired for being a stupid journalist. Smart journalists check their sources and check their evidence before airing them publicly.

Where were the factories? I don’t know. My point exactly; nobody knows because they don’t exist. The only factory they found had been abandoned after the Kuwait war. UN weapons inspectors had been monitoring Hussein and Iraq for 10 years after that, stated categorically that were none and were ignored by the Bush admin. In the end, they were right. They searched desperately for evidence to justify what they said when starting the Iraq war and found nothing.

If enough people had said NO, congress wouldn’t have approved the Iraq war. Now, you really don’t believe that, do you? In the hysteria after 9-11 the Bush admin in particular and GOP in general was so maniacal about any opposition, no matter how well-reasoned, that they branded anyone who didn’t go along as a troitor. Bush himself ignored evidence to the contrary, made up evidence whenever he couldn’t find it and drug us into a war under false pretences.

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

Just for the record of felonies committed by presidents, Bush not showing up for duty was and still is a felony.

Mark, What do yiou think will happen, are you going to be a year older in the 22nd?

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

EEngineer
Draft Dodger? Wiki covers this pretty well

I’ll let my question stand; is everyone that joined the Guard a draft dodger or just the people you don’t like.
BTW, Wiki, though right on this; isn’t the best source for info since it can and is changed by people with agendas.

to turn around and question the integrity of someone who did go, was shot at and decorated for it (wiki swiftboating – it was so egregious it became part of the language), was just criminal.

What about the purple heart for a self inflicted scratch? What about saying he spent Christmas over the border when records show that was a lie? What about the vast majority of people that knew him over there speaking out against him and what type of person he was? Why does serving in the military give you credit for integrity for the rest of your life. Was throwing fake medals over the fence an act of integrity? Not comparing the two (at all, just an example) but Benedict Arnold isn’t know for integrity after being a hero, on our side, in the revolution. He made an issue of his service when he saluted and said reporting for duty while accepting the nomination. BTW, how do you feel about “Borking” being a part of the language?

Where were the factories? I don’t know.

I thought the lack of cooperation with the inspectors was one precipitating reason. Again, we can’t find meth labs in our own country?? It doesn’t take much room for a chem lab. The fact remains he had chemical weapons. He was a threat to the region. As I said above. I think if he hadn’t been a threat to our oil supply we wouldn’t have cared any more than we do about the Congo.

Topo, Just for the record of felonies committed by presidents, Bush not showing up for duty was and still is a felony

Not if he had been excused. It happens occasionally with guys I work with.

If enough people had said NO, congress wouldn’t have approved the Iraq war

Yes, I do believe that. Again we don’t live in a dictatorship. The Mexican American War, the Spanish American War, WWI were all fanned by politics and the media. Some people talked against those but most just went along. I’m not saying Iraq’s not a mistake. That’s another discussion. But right or wrong there were reasons to go there and it wasn’t to avenge his daddy as a thank you for a spot in the Texas Guard.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

I don’t remember teh source right now, but W was not excused, he was AWOL.

W told his biographer in 1998 or 99, before he was even elected, he would attack Iran to build the great political capital that wartime presindents get. He said he would not waste his presidency the way his daddy did having a few days of war not building any political capital. He would use his political capital to privatize Social Security. sorry I do not remember who the biographer was, but you could probably find out if it interests yoiu.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I don’t remember teh source right now, but W was not excused, he was AWOL.

Come on Topo, I don’t remember the source either but he was excused! Sources are like…. well you know. Everyone’s got one. Some may even smell good; like a supposed biographer. Journalists remind me of an old saying “Figures never lie but liars sure can figure”. People believe what they want, that fits with their world view, when they hear it.

BTW, at work at I get fussed at for trying to understand Obama, against people that wouldn’t give him credit for anything good. Just like some feel about every president.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Who ever was making the statements cited his commanding officers as the source. I heard the discussion on the radio. They were talking about the Bush dynasty. Apparently, Poppa is the only person in America who can’t remember where he was when Kennedy was assinated. There is a lot of BS on the air, but Thom Hartman and Micheal Medved are credible and on opposites sides of nearly every issue.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I’ve never listened to them. Where can I find them. ( I guess I should google it since we’re so far apart)

I’m becoming more cynical (spelling?) every day about anyone in the media. I just finished a great book about Lincoln. If we think it’s bad today (slanted news) you should read that book.

I was mighty disappointed in Bush in many ways. Probably for different reasons than you, I don’t know, but reading about some other presidents puts it in some perspective. Lincoln wasn’t perfect either.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/ & http://www.michaelmedved.com/ They’re both on in the Seattle area, different stations of course.

I was a Republican Precinct committee officer when W was elected. I concluded he had the most corrupt administration in the history of the Republic. The Teapot Dome was a Sunday School class by comparison. Instead of prosecuting, his admin allowed Enron to use the federal courts to enforce contracts they negotiated while illegally manipulating the energy markets. That is beyond my comprehension. If it hadn’t been for the Snohomish County PUD subpoenaing internal tapes and transcribing them for court, most of the criminal activity would have never been uncovered. Even so, they ran out of money to do the job, there’s lots more buried in their internal documents we will never know about. To say I was disappointed is a gross understatement!!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

As I said “in bed with the rich”

I still believe if enough people would quit worrying about their reality shows and start discussing, learning, and acting we could change some things. Starting with jail time for corporate thieves. Why is person to person theft given prison but white collar crime isn’t? Rhetorical, I know the answer.

Power corrupts. That’s why we need to throw them all out occasionally and send some to jail.

Now back to the economy…... Dow over 10,000. My meager 457 is back where it was, what do you think?

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

I think the trickle down isn’t trickling very well. Consumer economies are trickle up. Until we get back to a single wage earner living wage for a family of 4, there will be no recovery on Main Street regardless of what Wall Street does. My kids had a stay at home mom, my daughter’s don’t, but my son’s kids do. He is about the only one of his friends whose wife doesn’t work and the kids aren’t in day care. Like I have said before, return to the post WWII policies that built the middle class, then you will see a recovery on Main Street.

I surveyed people casually about 5 years ago asking them, “what would it take for you to help me save America?” The unanimous answer was “more time.” People are so hammered financially, they don’t have time for a quality life with their families, let alone be politically active or even educated on the issues. That is the purpose of trickle down economics, keep the college kids off the street like they were at the apex of the middle class. Anti Viet Nam, pro pot and free love. I do not believe the power brokers like a powerful middle class that financial security breeds. The policies are set in DC, so the road to recovery will be paved political unrest. I don’t believe we will see if for at least 20 or 30 years.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I think the DC crowd can be scared and cowed (?). The recent tea parties got a little attention but it wasn’t sustained. My experiance, and opinion, is more people are more interested in collecting things than with an actual good life. I think the definition of a good life was different post war. But I wasn’t there so I’m only guessing. I think if we weren’t so matierialistic we could be politically active. At least before the economy tanked and so many lost jobs.

Another reason I see things differently is my grandparents were subsistance farmers They didn’t care what happened in Washington because they didn’t bring the crops in. (I’m 48 and remember my granddaddy plowing with a mule) People working 40 hours a week should be able to make time for the country. But I believe the truth is throughout our history the majority has benefited or suffered due to the excertions of the few.

Your sig. line is so true. We sale ourselves into slavery so we can keep up with the neighbors that are broke also.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

I guess we’ll see if there is a shake up in 2010?? The problem remains the amount of money required to run for national offices and the sources of those funds. If some one does look like they are going to displace the wrong person, the corporate owned media can and will crucify him/her. The Supreme Court recently ruled in favor of Fox News say they have no obligation to tell the truth. An individual without any money is not going to sue a network for liable or slander.

I agree that houses are too big and expensive. But the fact still remains the middle class is shrinking. Wages haven’t kept up with inflation. The buying power of electrician’s wages from 1968 to the present has been cut in half. If I were starting out today, we would not live like we did unless I cut the middle man out and worked for myself.

I was raised on a farm. We grew pretty much everything we ate until I was a teenager. My mother was an RN and dad took a job away from home in addition to running the farm. Guess they decided they didn’t have time to can all the produce. Social values have definitely changed since the 50’ and 60’s, but so has the value of labor. I grew up with kids whose dads worked as minimum wage farm laborers. They were able to support a wife and family. There is no supporting a wife and family on minimum wage today.

In 1965, the median income was about 6,000/yr. The minimum wage job of 1.25/hr produced about $2,600 or nearly half the median. Today, the minimum $7/hr produces about $14,500 or slightly over a quarter of the $57,000 median. No matter how you look at the situation, the trickle down economic practices put in place in the 80’s have screwed the middle class. Without a manufacturing base to build wealth, we will not recover what those policies have destroyed. I heard today 25% of the profit generated in America was by financial services sector. Their margin is about 40% and the Wall Street gang is expecting higher wages and bigger bonuses as the DOW recovers. It hit 10,000 today. I believe it is way over valued. Why are we paying a dollar for a few pennies of corporate earnings. We have never recovered from a major recession without PE rations in the single digits.

There is more in that signature line than meets the eye. Lowering of wages, easing of credit to keep the economy afloat by Feds policies have enslaved more than a few individuals. It has enslaved this whole country!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Another great analysis. You’ve given me more to think about.

It won’t happen but I’d like to see two things. 1. A law passed that says you can only get political donations from the people you want to represent. Congressmen and Senators shouldn’t be financed by people from other states. Presidents shouldn’t get international donations. 2. A repeal of the 17th ammendment. If the state legislatures were appointing Senators, the balance of power would equalize between the states and the feds as it should be. Your state folks are more likely to listen to you than the federal. We should be dealing and worrying more about the state level. I also think the majority of taxes should go through the states. We should be giving the feds highway funds and not the other way around.

There are some other things I think would help but they are even more controversial and we don’t need to go there.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Yes Toppy, I think I will bemoan my decrepitude on 12/21/2013. I love to say the day I was born was the darkest day in America that year.

I was looking at the campaign signs in yards around here, and at the political map of the US and I figure Democratic families should just put a blue flag on their house or lawn and the Republican families should do the same with a red flag. Then we can all go out and buy airsoft guns to play capture the flag. Those of us somewheres in the middle will post white flags of Alfred E. Newman screaming “Damn right I’m worried!! They’re both shooting at me!!”

Dyed in the wool party affiliation has become a religion in the US. Not that we worship them or believe they have god like powers, but that they receive their beliefs from their parents and give seeming unreserved faith to whatever candidate the party puts up.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

so do you guys believe that another 40,000 troops will win the war or just more dead gordon brown has just sent 500 more british troops to die with under rated equipment and lack of funds to change anything

-- cut it saw it scrap it

We certainly need to get back to a Constitutional gov’t. I agree on both points. Plus, we need to amend the 14th to say citizens are natural born people so corps can’t vote with their money under the First Amendment. Acting for the “public good” should be put back into their corp charters too.

It is too bad there is so much blind support for both parties. It’s the 20% in the middle that decide elections. When I was a precinct committee officer, the Congressional candidate from the 9th District was exposed as a tax cheat. I mentioned at one of the meetings the sob should be in prison, not Congress. The response was he was OUR sob, so WE must support him. I said I wouldn’t. That is the year Linda Smith mounted a last minute write in campaign, won the primary and eventually, the Congressional seat. I finally figured out I am an Independent.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Since Topmax brought up Fox networks, I’d like to comment on them. Rupert Murdoch likes America, maybe loves it. There is no country more like his native Australia than the US. But Murdoch became an American so he could own broadcasting corporations. It was a business decision. Likewise he started Fox News because he saw a niche media market that wasn’t being exploited. A business decision. Before the last election Murdoch said though John McCain is a personal friend, he’s been too compromised by years of congressional deal making, he’s too unpredictable. He went on to say Obama is fantastic, and has some great ideas on education and if he gets elected let’s see if he has the courage to walk the walk. Murdoch also states openly that he influenced his NY Post to endorse Obama. Please don’t think fox is just a conservative agenda tool of its admittedly conservative owner. It is a moneymaking endeavor. It and its venom spitting commentators will say what ever their target audience wants to hear. See the 4 min video at the link below.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hilary-rosen/rupert-murdoch-says-obama_b_104018.html

There is a therapeutic benefit to America from the fox approach. Those who feel very, very conservative ( and still have a grain of common sense) know they can’t really speak their minds at the water cooler or in the break room. For doing so would certainly risk ostracism by some, anger by others and it could really affect their careers. For some conservatives to hear the way they feel expressed in a public forum, in the confrontational way they would like to say it themselves might be keeping them from extreme pathological depression.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Pommy, No one knows if it will be enough. I personally thank the British People for standing with us, though your loyalty may prove painfully fruitless. Through your actions, your support for the last 8 years. we have felt the true affection your people have for us in America. I realize that affection can only survive only so many mistakes before national self interest takes over. For all or sakes I hope we don’t disappoint.

The US needs to join a new alliance with old adversaries and fair weather friends to be effective in Afghanistan. It has to be done only in the light of individual and shared national self interest. The Alliance must have Afghanistan, China, India, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, The United States and Uzbeckistan. European and east Asian involvement would be helpful but not essential. This is one of those times when we should think “the enemy of my enemy is my friend, for now”.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

when we should think “the enemy of my enemy is my friend, for now”.

Mark, I can’t disagree with you but wasn’t that what we were doing when we supported Iraq against Iran? And the future Taliban against the USSR.
Of course, I don’t have a better answer. Britain has been a true friend for years!! I think now we’re fighting in Afgan. to protect the gov. in Pakistan.

Sounds familier, fighting an insurgency, allied with an unpopular and crooked govt., with safe areas we can’t attack just across the border. If there was jungle it would remind me of a movie or something??

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

I think now we’re fighting in Afgan. to protect the gov. in Pakistan.
Firecaster, i hope that is not the case if pakistan was on our side then you guys would have put a large base there already with in range of Iran ..........

The US needs to join a new alliance with old adversaries and fair weather friends to be effective in Afghanistan.
Mark i dont know who your thinking of but dont count on Russia running to our aid they been there done that got the t-shirt we heard the canadains are pulling out along with the dutch so who do we turn too

-- cut it saw it scrap it

To paraphrase Texas rep. Charlie Wilson “What we did in Afghanistan (against the Russians) was historic and wonderful. Then we F d up the end game.” We got cheap at the end and wouldn’t pay to rebuild Afghanistan and buy some friends.

My personal experience in in the MIddle East made me ’feel’_ that the people of Iran like Americans more than any other group of people in that neighborhood. Except maybe the Israelis. But I met more Iranians than Israelis.
Now they do hate a lot of our policies( most notably Israel) but I’m guessing about 75% of the Iranians I met would like to agree to disagree on that subject and just do business anyway.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Pommy the idea isn’t to get all the alliance to come fight in Afghanistan, but to take away the ability of the Taliban/al Quida to find any safe haven. All of those nations are directly threatened with Sunni fundamentalism. The US, Pakistan and Afghanistan would have to do the heavy lifting (fighting) if they cover our backs it would really help all of us.

-- Knowledge Is Responsibility

Mark,
I think mr Bush screwed up relations with Isreal being such close friends for so long and then feed arms to the palistinains used against Isrealis someone had to break

To be Honest with you and i dont want to upset anyone for what i’m about to say but sometimes some people just dont want our help we can’t go round invading every country we deem a threat to someone else or us.
i dont know how many US soldiers have died in Afghanistan but over 200 uk soldiers have lost their lives all for a reported 150 votes and then to be told they were rigged i,m sorry but WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- cut it saw it scrap it

Mark,
Charlie Wilson was right. Which shows we didn’t care about the Afghans, which seem like a good people, only about sticking it to the Soviets. I agree with doing that but our short attention span left a mess that now we’re trying to clean up.
I’ve heard before that the Iranian people basically like us. Again we pay for mistakes made in the past. The Shah was a bulwark against the Soviets. Now our support of that thug, right or wrong, is costing us. Hindsight again.

Pommy, I should have specified we’re protecting their nukes. There’s some people over there we just don’t want to take over Pakistan. This complicates the end game for Obama and his advisers. Leave too soon and the area goes to hell and nukes are in the hands of crazies. Stay too long and the American people turn against the war and the president. Glad I didn’t run for POTUS.

And on top of that there is the economy…..

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Pommy,

That goes along with what I said before. We’re in a war allied with a crooked and unpopular gov’t. I don’t have the answer but at some point you’ve got to let the people decide what they want then let them live with it.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

I thought the Crazies had the nukes well trying to build them anyway …..

and are the american people turning against the war ??????

-- cut it saw it scrap it

I meant we didn’t want Pak. nukes in the hands of Al-Qu. Which could happen if the region disintegrated.

No, I don’t think we are turning against the war yet but if fighting ramps up with the additional troops and more soldiers start dying, who knows. I don’t think my country, as much as I love it and defend it, has a great history of seeing things through.

-- Father of two sons. Both Eagle Scouts.

Like you i think if the American gov wants any standing in the world they have to stay and standby thier actions good or bad also if they run no one would ever trust them again and like you said earlyer lets hope we stay friends because i think we have both isolated ourselfs from many of the countrys we are now looking for help from ….......

-- cut it saw it scrap it