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Forum topic by whiteshoecovers posted 06-22-2015 09:48 PM 818 views 0 times favorited 17 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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whiteshoecovers

41 posts in 549 days


06-22-2015 09:48 PM

I am making some patches in a door frame. This frame had been butchered a couple times to accommodate a variety of lock sets so I am going in and chiseling out a nice section into which I will fit a plug. The images show the section I’ve chiseled out of the mahogany trim (this is only slightly bigger than the original butchered hole) but I’ve also now chiseled out a similar sized section of the pine door jam to accept a new pine plug that will have the strike plate and hole for the deadbolt. (I know, not ideal for a strong deadbolt but it’s what I’ve decided to do to best preserve this historic woodwork).

Since I am chiseling these the surfaces they are not perfectly flat though the plugs I am making are perfectly square and flat, and for both the pine door jamb plug and the mahogany trim plug there is more end-grain to be bonded than long grain.

What technique and glue would be best? I have titlebond carpenters glue and hardman’s double bubble slow cure epoxy (blue 24hr). I am leaning towards the epoxy since the surfaces are not perfectly matched.

Thanks.


17 replies so far

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

4032 posts in 1816 days


#1 posted 06-22-2015 10:18 PM

Epoxy is gap filling, wood glue is not. You can also mix epoxy w/ wood flour to a peanut butter consistency and that will keep it from running out of the space where you want it.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View Kazooman's profile

Kazooman

628 posts in 1417 days


#2 posted 06-22-2015 10:18 PM

Not really a glue question. More a joinery question.

I’m no expert at this, but I think you can go a long way towards making the sides of the notch you have chiseled out much closer to square. That will go a long way toward making the repair longer lasting, and much better looking.

The face you can see in the picture is clearly not smooth and probably not perpendicular to the face of the panel. Clamp a guide piece to the work and use it to guide your chisel for a series of cuts that will bring the surface to perpendicular to the surface of the piece and parallel to the edge. That establishes a good reference. Do a similar operation for the ends of the cutout. Only then will you be in a position to cut the piece that will fill the void to size.

I would also take some time to think about the forces that will be invloved as the door is used. You might decide to reinforce the strength of the piece using some dowels, splines, or another method. Simply gluing a block into the opening, even if it is crafted to much tighter tolerances might not be enough.

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whiteshoecovers

41 posts in 549 days


#3 posted 06-23-2015 12:05 AM

@kazooman, thanks for the advice but that was just an in-progress pic, I’m all “squared” away now.

View barada83's profile

barada83

76 posts in 651 days


#4 posted 06-23-2015 01:19 AM

I’d epoxy it with some wood dust mixed in for color, although it might be tough with the upcoming finish match. If I was in your spot, I’d oversize my filler so I could pare it to flush. It would also help with the finish feathering.

-- Mike

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jerryminer

528 posts in 906 days


#5 posted 06-23-2015 01:24 AM

I would go a step further—forget the square corners and cut the top and bottom back at a 45 or so—even steeper is better. Then the joint becomes more of a “scarf joint” and the glue bond is much better. Been there; done that.

The angled cut also blends better visually—no sharp across-the-grain joint lines.

View runswithscissors's profile

runswithscissors

2189 posts in 1490 days


#6 posted 06-23-2015 07:05 AM

jerryminer has the right idea, but probably means a more acute angle, not steeper (steeper would put it closer to 90 deg.) This is an old trick in boat building and repair. Such a piece is called a “Dutchman.” It will be much stronger, and easier to do than the square cut end joints. I also agree that epoxy with wood flour thickener is the best adhesive. It will fill any imperfections in the joint. It’s going to be hard to make that repair invisible, however.

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

View whiteshoecovers's profile

whiteshoecovers

41 posts in 549 days


#7 posted 06-23-2015 12:50 PM

Thanks for confirming my inclination to use epoxy. I think I will both epoxy the pine door jamb plug, then drill a couple holes and pin it as well.

As for the mahogany trim, I really like the idea of the “Dutchman” for the top and bottom. Here I am not so worried about strength since it is more of an aesthetic piece, but stronger won’t hurt. I’ll try to post some more pictures of the process and result.

WSCs

View WoodNSawdust's profile

WoodNSawdust

1417 posts in 641 days


#8 posted 06-23-2015 12:59 PM

In addition to the good suggestions already offered. I would look at adding a little dye to the epoxy to help it match the finish color.

-- "I love it when a plan comes together" John "Hannibal" Smith

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runswithscissors

2189 posts in 1490 days


#9 posted 06-24-2015 04:01 AM

And . . .a Dutchman is sometimes called a “graving piece.” Just remembered that.

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

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whiteshoecovers

41 posts in 549 days


#10 posted 06-29-2015 12:32 AM


And . . .a Dutchman is sometimes called a “graving piece.” Just remembered that.

- runswithscissors


Maybe, but “Dutchman” is such a cooler name, especially considering on what a superior level of cool the Dutch are operating.

So I am still working on chiseling out for my Dutchman (waiting on a new set of chisels) when I decided to pull the “screen” door and refurbish that as well.

Along the way it was converted to have this sliding screen for the top panel and glass for the bottom panels (pic) and I’d like to convert it back to all screen panels. I pulled it and have removed all of the panels and associated moldings….


When I pulled the moldings I could tell this door has already been through it a couple times with a lot of nail holes in the rails and stiles around each panel. I think I will rabbet out a groove around each panel which should eliminate all the old nail holes, then groove that rabbet to accept a cord or spline to hold each screen taught, and cover with new molding. But now I need to decide what to do with this previous repair job. Looks like the original mortise and tenon began to fail at some point and someone did a decent job with this patch that was screwed into place.

Problem is that it’s a little loose again and wouldn’t you know it this is the spot where the door sticks in the jamb. So what’s the call here? I originally thought I could clamp the joint, drill and dowel the tenon at a couple spots and be good, but then I noticed this patch and when I clamped the joint I did get a more snug fit but their patch started to wedge out of place. I am thinking of removing their patch and creating a template to use with my router to remove a larger section of the stile and replace that with a patch of red oak (the original patch is pine I think) and glue and pin that in place.

Thoughts?

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runswithscissors

2189 posts in 1490 days


#11 posted 06-29-2015 01:20 AM

I should mention that oak, esp. white oak, is not very compatible with epoxy. Tannins in the wood react with the epoxy somehow. Not sure about red oak, however. The epoxy will cure with no problem, but the joint may eventually fail.

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

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whiteshoecovers

41 posts in 549 days


#12 posted 07-02-2015 06:14 PM

I was hoping for a little more feedback, maybe over the weekend.

So how about a vote for the door patch. Option 1 is just a replacement of the original approach with hopefully longer lasting results. I plan to make a template for my router to create a nice cavity for the new patch, and then pin the patch to the existing tenon with a couple dowels.

This second approach is a bit more extreme.

I really welcome votes and alternative suggestions.

View runswithscissors's profile

runswithscissors

2189 posts in 1490 days


#13 posted 07-02-2015 06:25 PM

I would vote for the second option, but instead of a tongue and groove on that stile, I’d make a scarf joint, with at least an 8 to one slope. It will be much stronger. I’m also dubious about mixing wood species there.

Cutting the scarf joint should be pretty easy on the new piece, but as for the existing stile, I didn’t promise it would be easy. I’d get that made first (plane, hand saw, router jig, etc.) then cut the new piece to fit.

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

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whiteshoecovers

41 posts in 549 days


#14 posted 07-02-2015 06:30 PM

Awesome, thanks for the input. So you’re suggesting something like this:

Oh, and no one is mixing wood here. Oak door, oak patch.

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runswithscissors

2189 posts in 1490 days


#15 posted 07-02-2015 06:31 PM

Yes

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

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