The Great Table Saw Debate Continues...

I really like the idea of the riving knife, plus that saw has a slightly larger rip capacity. Right off the bat, I don’t see any advantage to the other saw. Maybe I’m missing something.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Get the one with the riving knife.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Couple of things though.

A cabinet saw isn’t any bigger than a contractor saw (assuming it’s on any kind of stand) so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t just get a nice used unisaw for the same price.

For dust collection you can always get a 4 – 2.5” adapter.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

This is just a thought… Buy a good used saw, save again, then buy the saw that will meet your future needs as a master craftsman that will last the rest of your life.

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

Charlie, I’m in the same boat. I don’t see the real difference between the two saws.

Does anyone know of a good used tool store in the Kansas City area?

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

craigslist is your friend

Nice Grizzly

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Look into a hybrid saw. It has the enclosed cabinet, which means smaller footprint and better dust collection than a contractor’s, and it’s 110v and not as expensive as a full-bore cabinet saw.

-- Measure twice, then try to figure out which one was right.

I went through the same situation about five years ago, so here are my 2c…

Sounds like you are describing a Hybrid or “crossover” saw.

I had but did not like the contractor saw for a number of reasons, mostly because I also have a small shop(1 car garage)and the motor kept getting in the way. It was a case of a false space saving. A full cabinet saw was just too big and not really portable.

Cabinet and Hybrid saws work best with dust collection otherwise the ‘box’ gets filled with sawdust. But because you are in a basement shop you may already have DC. Dc in the contractor saw was not effective, seems like it only got half of the dust.

I bought the Jet “Super-saw”, suits all of my needs, 110v, DC, enough power (I very seldom rip larger than 6/4), put it on a mobile base to move it around. I am very happy with my saw, any complaints are really nit’-picks…

-- Dane, Fairview Pk, OH. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away...

Of the two saws you linked to, the G0661 has several clear advantages…or at least what I’d consider advantages. The G0661 is listed as a “contractor saw”, but is really a hybrid by my definition of it, which means it has the motor enclosed inside the cabinet vs hanging out the back. An enclosed motor takes up less space, has a shorter drive belt (lower vibration, better power transfer), better dust collection, and in this particular case has a more elegant trunnion setup. The G0661 also has a riving knife.

The G0576 is a traditional contractor saw that includes all the disadvantages of an outboard motor. It also uses the older style connecting rods as an arbor carriage, which are more prone to twisting out of alignment when the motor is tilted. The G0661 uses a single cast blade shroud as an arbor carriage.

It’s true than a standard cabinet saw actually has a smaller footprint than a traditional contractor saw with an outboard motor. A saw with a true 2hp or larger motor typically requires 220v (aka 240v).

G0661 guts and motor location:

The G0576 trunnions and motor will look very much like these:

-- I've gotta stop treating this stuff like it grows on trees...

Fool is a strong word, but you’d be a fool not to jump on that 50’s Unisaw (single phase one with picture) in Damian’s post.

500 bucks so you could buy a new fence and blade and have a saw that will last you for a lifetime.

-- Steve, Webster Groves, MO

I would highly recomend going with a good used saw and with the money you save, get yourself a dust collector. I wouldnt even consider a 2.5 port and a shopvac for a large saw.

-- Scott, South Carolina

Have you considered the Ridgid R4511? Although they have had a few glitches getting production up and going, they are really an exceptional saw for the money, and can be had if shopping right using sales and rebates sort of stuff in the area of $450.00

If you are interested in the used market check your local Craigslist…

Some of my personal favorites are the Emmerson built Craftsman and Ridgid contractor saws, as well as the TTI / Ryobi built Ridgid TS3650 / TS3660 contractor saws. I see those on a nearly daily basis, needing some clean up, and most likely a belt and possibly a fence going for under $200.00

-- Trying to follow the example of the master.

Danny,
America grinding and sales,LLC is at 29th and Jarbo just behind signal hill in KC. Rusty Lloyd is the owner / operator. Here’s the details, 1020 W 29th Street, Kansas City, MO 64108. 816-561-1776, fax 816-561-1778 and toll free 800-304-6844.
www.americagrinding-sales.com
They sell from virtually all manufactures of cutting goods. He has stacks of tablesaws in the shop. Some are powermatic, delta unisaw, etc. I went to pick up my cabinet saw and saw all those. I commented I wished I had known about all the used ones and he said they are mostly three phase. Motors can be changed and both wings don’t have to be left on if you want to reduce footprint. Just a thought
Rusty and his son run the place and if they don’t know where to find something they probably know someone who does.
I personally cannot say enough good about them. They treated me, a first time customer, like a regular high dollar client. Everything I priced or had a comparison price for, they beat on their first price, not a negotiated price. Short version of this story. Had a mismatched part on a bandsaw I bought through them, they brought the display saw with the correct trunion out to my place, almost two hours, and exchanged saws. This was from people who already had every penny I owed them. They will get repeat business from me.
Hope this helps. Any further questions you can PM me. Best of luck, BTKS

-- "Man's ingenuity has outrun his intelligence" (Joseph Wood Krutch)

I had the same problem 5 years ago and purchased a Delta contractor saw w the unifence. = to the delta 36-981 for under a G (Rockler has the 36-981 for $850.00 + $80.00 S&H). it’s a great saw with a 30” fence and has the side table Casiron extention wing, I added an out feed table later. I too have a small basement shop and it was a good fit when I got mine it came with the mobil base although I never used it on my TS (used it on the jointer instead) this Delta is a good option if you want NEW. I agree with Damian if you don’t mide buying a used machine there are some great deals on Craig’s list, the Key is to be patiant and check it often then when you see somthing you like act on it or it will be gone if it is any kind of a deal. Good luck I hope this helps

-- Dave, I wood if I could but I can't so I woodknot

I’d throw a vote in for the Unisaw/Craig’s List. Especially if you’re starting out, the less you have to spend on tools is the more you can spend on wood (or more tools.)

I vote for used. You’ll get a great product, learn the tuning steps you need to know anyhow, and save yourself some dough at the same time.

-- Laziness - Apathy = Efficiency

Thanks for all the advice, guys.

I had another question: Anyone know what I would expect to pay for a used Powermatic 64A? (Found a used one I’m going to look at).

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

It’s a Powermatic by name, but is basically just another decent Taiwanese contractor saw that I always felt was slightly overpriced compared to the Jet, GI, Grizzly, Bridgewood, Delta, and other similar contractor saws. The PM64a was as high as $950 to $1000 new (more for an extended fence). The rule of thumb for used gear tends to be 50% of the cost of new (depending on condition and accessories). So $450-$500 would be the expected price range based on conventional thinking. However, keep in mind that the PM64a is a good example of older outdated technology that is verging on obsolescence…still a solid performer, but because the hybrids offer several advantages, the price should reflect that IMHO.

My 2 cents…

-- I've gotta stop treating this stuff like it grows on trees...

Too bad most of craigs list doesn’t abide by that guideline. I don’t know how many rusted out heaps of garbage people have tried to pass off as tools that have price tags within (or over by) 10% of their new price.

The one I saw looked like it had the extension and it said in the ad it comes with a mobile base. He wants $750. I figuring I’ll look and see if he will take a little less than that.

Thanks for the tip, Scott.

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

yeah, craiglist around boston lately have adds that post products that actually cost LESS at the store (not to mention the return policy and warranty that you’d get with it) – just gotta be smart enough to pass up on those – as good as they may seem. $750 for the powermatic seems a bit steep for what it gives you. I personally don’t care much for the black/non-see-through guard on the 64A. for that price you can definitely find a good unisaw on craigslist.

as it just happens – I went to my brother’s production shop last week, and although they have a fullsize robland 12” sliding saw, they also had an old unisaw in the back – what surprised me was that the unisaw (30” fence) actually felt/seemed smaller than my Ridgid Hybrid – maybe it’s because my hybrid has longer rails… but the point is – a full cabinet saw – is not really any bigger than a contractor’s saw – and infact, without the motor in the back, it actually has a smaller footprint.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

As great as CraigsList is for deals, you have to weed through a lot of crap. Everyone keeps saying that I can find a decent used Unisaw for around $750 on CL but I have never seen one on KC’s list. There have been a few in the out-lying areas, but they still have owners who don’t want to price to sell. (Sorry, I’m a bit upset with CL’s quality anymore.)

That being said, how would you go about accounting for extras in a used saw? Same 50% principal, or do they even add to the overall value?

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

You pretty much get to determine if the extras add value. If the price is higher because of an accessory that you value or would buy anyway, then it adds value….how much value is always the subjective part. (sellers tend to think stuff like their homemade insert adds a ton of value!). The 50% rule of thumb is at least a starting point, but that can vary a lot with good cause. Age, condition, desirability, performance history, etc., all contribute to the pricing. If it was a lousy $1000 tool to start with, then $500 is unreasonable. If it was a beautiful Lie Nielsen hand plane, it might reasonably maintain 70%-80% value. Basically, whatever the market will bare.

-- I've gotta stop treating this stuff like it grows on trees...

Here is another question for the masses: How much emphasis should I be putting on the material the wings are made of?

I’m asking because I really like the setup of Shop Notes’ “Table Saw Project Center” from Vol. 18 Issue 106. In that issue, they completely replace the regular wings with wood wings that have a plastic laminate top coat.

I guess what I’m getting at is if this is a viable alternative then who cares what the wings are made of, right?

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

Not to keep bringing this up, but I purchased a table saw last night (used). I happened across one on CraigsList, though it was not a Unisaw. Personally, I’m beginning to believe that a used Unisaw is about as rare as a unicorn in KC.

Anyway, I ended up with an older model Sears 10in contractor saw. I’d seen several of them in shops over the past few years so I knew there was potential. I’ll post some pictures on a blog when I get a bit further along today. I’m not sure of the model number. I wrote it down last night but forgot it this morning. It was 123.something. Anyway, 3hp motor (more like 1 1/2 to 2) and all the parts were in good order.

Thanks for all the advice guys! I really do appreciate it!

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

Sorry, double post.
~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

If its’ a 113.298###, you’ve got an Emerson made saw….and you’re right that it has very good potential to serve you well. They usually need a fence upgrade, and a good blade. Some need a fresh motor, and some need a new belt and/or pulleys. Most just need some elbow grease.

Cast iron wings are a “nice to have”, but not a “gotta have”. Any 27” wings can be made to fit…cast iron drills easily, so if you stumble on a wing deal, grab it. Steel works but doesn’t offer the mass or rigidity. Flat solid cast iron wings also give a nice big reference surface that’s handy, but you can get some of that effect with shop made wings from MDF, melamine, Formica, etc.

-- I've gotta stop treating this stuff like it grows on trees...

Hey, it’s your thread…you get to bring it up as often as you like! ;)

If its’ a 113.298###, you’ve got an Emerson made saw….and you’re right that it has very good potential to serve you well. They usually need a fence upgrade, and a good blade. Some need a fresh motor, and some need a new belt and/or pulleys. Most just need some elbow grease.

Cast iron wings are a “nice to have”, but notta gotta have. Any 27” wings can be made to fit…cast iron drills easily, so if you stumble on a wing deal, grab it. Steel works but doesn’t offer the mass or rigidity. Flat solid cast iron wings also give a nice big reference surface that’s handy, but you can get some of that effect with shop made wings from MDF, melamine, Formica, etc.

-- I've gotta stop treating this stuff like it grows on trees...

congrats! looking forward for some pictures :)

why do you say that the 3hp is more like 1.5 to 2? is that a belt driven saw?

those tablesaw-stations are pretty nice if you have the space for it! definitely can improve DC on some saws, and give you a full blown work station for many other purposes.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Congrats on the saw. I’ve used a craftsman contractor since 1997 until Jan of 09. It should serve quite well. I was going to sell it but decided it would be a great second saw to do a quick rip or etc on when the main saw is set up for something else. Also, and the main reason, it’ll be a great starter saw for the kids. It’s a lot less intimidating than the cabinet saw along with a lot less kickback power. Still enough power to greatly respect. I just didn’t think I’d get what it’s worth on the used market. I’ve beefed up the cabinet, kept it in tune, fitted for an outfeed table, etc. Oh, I’m rambling again. Congrats and enjoy the new toy. BTKS

-- "Man's ingenuity has outrun his intelligence" (Joseph Wood Krutch)

Thanks!

I say more like 1.5 or 2 because it’s belt driven and I’m running through 110v. Plus, 3hp would only be at peak no load… yada, yada, yada…

Anyone know of a good aftermarket blade guard and splitter?

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

Got those pics ready yet?

;-)

Congrats on the new saw. Happy days!

-- -- Neil

I guess I am the oddman out as I prefer the venerable Craftsman table saw, with a good fence it will cut a most superb line and I have had mine now since 1992 and have had no problems other than having to align the fence every now and then, I use the Incra Fence and love it. I use my saw for cabinets and mouldings even though I have a couple routers and a table router. I would think it is what your wallet tells you to do that will be a limit.

-- Jim - Cushing, WI

Some initial pics are on my blog:
http://lumberjocks.com/DannyBoy/blog/11402

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

DANNY SOMETIMES OVERLAND TOOLS HAS USED SAWS. HERE IS A LINK. www.overlandtool.com THEY ARE AT 79th AND NIEMAN, (913) 599-4044

I WOULD GO WITH THE RIVING KNIFE SARGE IN OP

-- GOD CREATED THE EARTH WITH TREES, GOD CREATED MAN WITH BRAINS TO MAKE A SAW. THE REST IS UP TO US. LETS MAKE SOME SAW DUST.