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Question on diamond stones and sharpening girts

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Forum topic by bbasiaga posted 06-04-2015 04:37 PM 1423 views 0 times favorited 16 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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bbasiaga

757 posts in 1460 days


06-04-2015 04:37 PM

I have been sharpening with a King waterstone. It is a combo 1000/6000 grit. I was looking at a diamond plate to use to flatten them, then started thinking I should just switch to diamond plates for sharpening. Lots of YouTube guys seem to like them. But I zee that even extra fine diamond plates are like 1200 grit. This seems at odds with the other internet wisdom that you need to go to the highest possible grit to get a keen edge.

So is there something about a 1200grit diamond plate that mames the finish still acceptable for planing, etc.? Or would you still need to follow up with a fines stone afterwards?

If you are using diamond stones, what is your process for sharpening?

Thanks, Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.


16 replies so far

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hotbyte

842 posts in 2440 days


#1 posted 06-04-2015 04:47 PM

The DMT Extra Extra Fine Dia-Sharp is supposed to be 8000 grit.

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cdaniels

1311 posts in 966 days


#2 posted 06-04-2015 04:47 PM

I can say i’ve tried diamond stones and primarily japanese water stones. what I can offer is that you can sharpen a plane to 320 grit and still get a perfect whispy thin. the grit is really only a preference although I still finish my irons with a honing plate and a strop. Try it, sharpen your irons to like 3-600 and see for yourself. most people use diamond plates because they never need to be flattened and you don’t have to use water or oil. get a piece of 1200 grit wet sandpaper and sharpen on up to it. diamond stones are a bit pricier so most people just go with sandpaper or other cheaper stones to start out.

-- Jesus was a carpenter... I'm just saying

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Tim

3118 posts in 1426 days


#3 posted 06-04-2015 05:40 PM

Paul Sellers theory on the need for higher and higher grit is it’s just marketing to sell more sharpening equipment. Look for his sharpening to 250 grit video on youtube. Very eye opening, the basic idea being only sharpen up to what grit you need to for the task at hand. I think in that video he mentions his son doing luthier work really did need the 15000 grit, but not often.

The course fine and extra fine diamond stones do work really well if you use a strop next.

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bandit571

14594 posts in 2148 days


#4 posted 06-04-2015 05:45 PM

I’m more of an oil stone type of guy. Mine go up to 1K on the stones. After that, Wet-or-Dry sandpaper up to 2.5K. After that? I have an OLD leather belt ( used to be on my nail bags at work) and a little bit of Green Polish. Lately, since I ran out of the Green, just been using only the belt to strop. Works either way.

All those higher grit stones/plates do is polish the surface. You can do the same thing with the leather strop. With less mess, too. Most times, after the oil stones are done, they just sit there, as abase for the sandpaper, then a base for the strop. Then I just put the whole stack of stuff away, and get to work.

So, maybe look for a decent leather strop, or just an old, well worn leather work belt.

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

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JayT

4783 posts in 1676 days


#5 posted 06-04-2015 06:16 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are different systems for “grit”, so depending on what system is being used will determine actual particle size. For instance, 1500 grit sandpaper is approximately the same as a 6000 grit waterstone.

For diamond plates, I have Coarse, Medium and Super Fine EZE Lap plates and a strop. This set has worked well and I don’t really have any need to expand it.

I find my 1200 grit Super Fine EZE Lap diamond plate to be just a bit less fine than the 6000 grit waterstone I used to use, but not by much. Either way, I still finished with a strop, so the final grit is the same.

-- "Good judgement is the result of experience. A lot of experience is the result of poor judgement."

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waho6o9

7174 posts in 2042 days


#6 posted 06-04-2015 06:33 PM

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-8-Dia-Sharp-Diamond-Kit-P405.aspx

just got this set and it’s awesome :)

Great advice above as well.

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bbasiaga

757 posts in 1460 days


#7 posted 06-04-2015 06:45 PM

Different systems for grits? Well that makes perfect sense. Is there a handy chart to compare them?

And Wahoo….why did you choose the Dia-sharp over the Duo-sharp?

Thanks,
Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

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JayT

4783 posts in 1676 days


#8 posted 06-04-2015 06:53 PM



Different systems for grits? Well that makes perfect sense. Is there a handy chart to compare them?

Thanks,
Brian

- bbasiaga

Google “sharpening stone comparison chart” and there will be several that pop up. Not all have all the different systems, so it would make it hard to post a single chart that fits everyone.

-- "Good judgement is the result of experience. A lot of experience is the result of poor judgement."

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waho6o9

7174 posts in 2042 days


#9 posted 06-04-2015 09:22 PM

And Wahoo….why did you choose the Dia-sharp over the Duo-sharp?

Well Mr. Brian the Dia-Sharp are stout and it makes for flattening the water
stones a breeze.

I have one Duo-Sharp and it’s lacking in my opinion. It’s okay but I disdain taking it
out of the holder flipping it etc.

View BubbaIBA's profile

BubbaIBA

383 posts in 1841 days


#10 posted 06-04-2015 10:37 PM

Brian,

Almost any sharpening system will work to achieve a working edge, an edge that is sharp enough for most tasks. Some such as man made water stones do it a little faster and will polish the iron but require more maintenance, Diamond stones require little maintenance, cut somewhat quickly but tend to leave random deep scratches and to polish the iron will need to be stropped. Natural stones, either water or oil, may work a little slower and many will leave a “haze” instead of a polish because the grits are random size but when the edge is looked at under high magnification it will be smoother (sharper) than the edge left by a man made polishing stone.

BTW, I have all the systems, a low tolerance for hassle, like the feel of iron on a natural stone, really do not like water on my tools so about 90% of my sharpening is done on two natural oil stones, a Soft Arkansas and a Hard Black Arkansas followed by a leather strop charged with Herb’s Yellowstone. Another advantage is good oil stones are relatively cheap, Diamond are not too bad but Natural Water Stones will make you gulp a couple of times when you hear the price.

The secret to any sharpening system, if there is a secret, is to use a system that is easy and convenient and sharpen often. Not when the edge is noticeably dull but before you notice it is not working well, a quick touch on the stone and back to work.

ken

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rwe2156

2198 posts in 945 days


#11 posted 06-05-2015 12:48 AM



So is there something about a 1200grit diamond plate that mames the finish still acceptable for planing, etc.? Or would you still need to follow up with a fines stone afterwards?

If you are using diamond stones, what is your process for sharpening?

Thanks, Brian

- bbasiaga

Brian-
You could probably stop at 1200 grit, and I’ve tried doing that, but I think you’ll find that honing (different than sharpening) to a polished edge will give you much better results, especially in something like a LA plane or any plane you want to do edge grain.

I respect Paul Sellers, but totally disagree with his “sharpen to 300 grit”.
I think enough has been microscopically studied about sharpening to know 300 grit is going to leave a very crude edge that won’t last nearly as long as a polished edge.

I have the duo-sharp diamond stones by DMT.
I do not have lapping plates although I’ve heard they are better.
The grits go from 300 to 1200.

Actually, I mainly use the coarse stone for flattening my water stones, which I will talk about next.
I also use it for really rough things like flattening the back of a new tool that is badly out of flat.

Sharpening is one of those subjects like handplanes and dovetail joints, OK? Every body has an opinion and a way of doing it but ultimatley you have to find what works best for you.

Just remember 2 basic principles: you need a flat back, you need a consistent technique, and you don’t go to the next grit til you’ve got a burr.

As far as technique it depends on what you’re doing.
Whatever it is, you have to practice your skills.

For touching up a blade, I usually start with fine 800 and stop when I get a burr, usually 10-15 strokes.
Then 1200, remove burr from back and then same thing 10-15 strokes or until a burr forms.

Then I go to water stones for final honing, 4000 and 8000. I flatten them each time I use them. I do not like the flattening stones like the one Norton has because I discovered it is not flat!

I generally go with free hand sharpening, but once in a while I’ll have a “sharpening day” and go through everything with a honing guide just to check and make sure I haven’t messed up the angles too bad.

That’s it. With a plane iron, I can usually be back to work in under 4 minutes.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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TheFridge

5765 posts in 951 days


#12 posted 06-05-2015 01:01 AM

I have 2 double sided diamond stones. An ezelap f/sf and a dmt c/xc. The xc side of the dmt was unusable after lapping 2-3 irons. They said it was loaded, even though I used it in a water bath, and I should use a wire brush and some kind of abrasive household cleaner to clean it. It didn’t work. So they said send it to them and they’ll replace it replace it if it’s defective. That way in April. Still waiting to hear back. The eze lap has been a champ.

That being said. I picked up a roughly 18×18 piece of scrap granite and some paper up to 2500 and some wd40. I prefer this over the diamond stones now. So much easier for me.

Edit: what is a sharpening girt? :)

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

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TheWoodenOyster

1275 posts in 1400 days


#13 posted 06-05-2015 01:53 AM

IMO, you still need a waterstone above 1200 for a stellar edge. BUT, you can still get a very good edge with 1200 grit diamond stone straight to a strop. In the end, I have tried lots of different sharpening methods some of which employ the use of waterstones some of which do not. But, I typically end up coming back to them to get a really good edge. They’ll sit for a time unused, but I always come back to them. Along with a Coarse and Fine diamond stone, a couple finer waterstones are not going to be a bad investment.

-- The Wood Is Your Oyster

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4169 posts in 3207 days


#14 posted 06-05-2015 05:11 AM

I have a diamond plate and while it works great, I do find it cuts more slowly than a Waterstone of the same grit.

I think you would find the 600-800 grit diamond stone to cut at the same speed as a 1200 waterstone.

However… the COARSE diamond plate will rebuild an edge or bevel quite fast.

I got from Lee Valley a Diasharp coarse plate, 4 X 10 inches for 99 dollar. 6 months ago… it is 325 grit

-- 'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' ~George Carlin

View Texcaster's profile

Texcaster

1139 posts in 1138 days


#15 posted 06-05-2015 06:57 AM

As far as anyone can tell the Hard Black Arkansas stone is 1000 to 1200 grit. I have HBA bench and slip stones, that has been my finish grit since the 70’s.

-- Mama calls me Texcaster but my real name is Mr. Earl.

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