Why Are You So Expensive?

that pretty much sums it up… and this is before it even gets into your shop…

cheap, fast, quality – pick 2.

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Todd, I my self have wondered about the prices some charge when they seem to be way out of my budget then I have to step back and think what everything costs me to do something around the house or a little woodworking project and then think of the cost of tools and expendables and then there is the time it takes to plan, buy the materials, travel, make and finish something. I know that craftsmen are worth every penny they make and then some but the average person doesn’t have a clue. One of the many side jobs I’ve had for years was as a photographer. People thought I was expensive until they went elsewhere and came back. Just in the camera bag that I carried was near 20k of camera gear let alone all the studio stuff I would lug to weddings and such. Those that would hire me had no idea how much time it took to get ready for a shoot, clean up after one and then there is all the hours of photo adjusting. They just didn’t have a clue…

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

Posting progress photos for clients was originally intended to simply share the craftsman process which people are interested in.

It has turned out to be a great way to educate people on how much work goes into the making of any given project. One comment I continually hear is, “I had no idea how much work went into doing that.”

They feel the cost is a bit more justified. There is a separation of client and craftsman when you disappear to the shop. They don’t know how involved the work is unless you show them.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

I had a retired school teacher ask me for a tv cabinet for her flatscreen, one a bit bigger than what was offered at the local (stapled together, unsanded) you finish it place. Theirs was under $500, I couldn’t even buy the lumber for less than $770. Granted there would have been a huge difference in quality, but…

Kindlingmaker – our one wedding splurge was for our photographer (apart from the locale). We may have spent more for the photos than the honeymoon, but in our eyes, that was the only thing we’d have to keep… We’ve seen our photographer at other weddings, as well as others, and realize how smart/lucky we were. A decision we still don’t regret.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso -- http://blanchardcreative.etsy.com -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

I know there are a few of you out there doing it – but I don’t understand how anyone can make a profit at woodworking…

I used to think that I could use woodworking as a secondary income one day after I retire. Then I realized how much good quality hardwood costs and the time involved and realized this was just a dream.

-- James - What's your excuse this time??

nice looking material … looking forward to your next progress photo

I’m wondering what this will be. the plywood looks like some nice stuff

-- work from your heart and your spirit will live forever

Hey Todd you get that too. If you buy quality your get quality otherwise we have to make our projects out of pallets and unlike some of the talent here my pallet projects look like there made from pallets. . I know a guy that charges $15 an hour and increases the hours so he really makes his shop rate $ 65 an hour. I feel ether if the customer can afford the product or not. If your only willing to pay for a volkswagen don’t go shopping at a Rolls Royce dealership.

-- Jim from Heirloom Woodshop Southern Oregon

I would say something like custom furniture is very labor intensive, and couldn’t possibly beat (furniture store) Haverty’s, Ashley’s and Rooms to go prices.

-- I'm inspired to build a Bombe one day!

thank God we love woodworking !
we would all be in loony bins otherwise .

-- david ,new mexico ,allheart

Whats screwed up is theres an excellent chance the broker selling the wood earns a better living than the gifted artist who turns it into a thing of beauty.

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

Heck Todd. You should have just used birch imported ply, a bit of alder or poplar and stained it cherry. I run into those cherry kitchens all the time. Seems to me my folks had a walnut set of tables made the same way.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Dennis – I think you mean “cherry” kitchens;)

I am lucky that I have a good reputation. I got this job because someone else screwed it up, granted I did not get it in the first place but – oh well.

They should just call me the FireMan because I seem to put out a lot of fires for other people.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

well I’m just glad to see your making it todd…when we live in a particle board society and alder stained to the species….its a real pleasure to see the real craftsman still being utilized….i think there will always be a place for the real stuff…but is fewer then in days past…..good luck…

-- The Grizzone

Yes lumber can be expensive!

-- CJIII Future cabinetmaker

We all know your pain. I tell people that they can buy store funiture much cheaper than I can build it for but if you truly want or need that custom piece…that’s when you need a craftsman. Now days I keep my eye out for used pieces of furniture made with real hardwood that I can disassemble and reuse.

-- gbear, Carmichael, CA

Todd – Maybe you should consider inserting “Experienced at fixing $400 furniture” into your original quote with the explanation that a fix may cost twice the original $400 bargain.

Steve

When a person gets his car fixed, its about $50/hr here, plus parts.

And people pay it. I guess they need their car more than a piece of furniture.

Why can’t a woodworker do the same thing.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

Dick your lucky here they charge now $75 an hour to work on vehicles and they take their time.

Todd same thing here people don’t have a clue what it cost to do woodworking, the price of material, tools and your skill, sometime you end up to working for nothing.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

Lots of good comments. What I see hurting a lot of guys like us right now is there’s not a lot of disposable income banging around out there right now. I’m not even thinking about attempting to sell hand built cedar strip canoes at this time. People’s disposable income is just not available for that kind of thing.

I just landed a client in WV to do some post & beam home plans for him quoted on a square foot basis. The shocker was he didn’t quibble about the price at all. My guess is he had already done some preliminary price shopping before he got to me. Some guys haven’t a clue and think their custom new Post & Beam home plans should cost $90.

They are better off looking for a blue light special in Kmart.

-- Tim ~ ~ Be an example worth following

Todd, We make/generate all of our wood stock here on site. It costs a ton of $ to produce kiln dried quality wood. I am actually seeing plenty of instances where I can buy wood lots (truck loads) for a lot cheaper than I can make the same thing.
So besides buying all sorts of reclaimed timber/logs, we’re now looking at other distressed mills overages. The big trick in all of this is purveying a quality product to the right customer and most definitely keeping them coming back. We connect in 1 out of 10 probes and about 3 out of 4 bids. Fortunately the phone keeps ringing.

-- rob

.Todd what are some other wood prices out there? I been looking @ cabinet grade plywood and wounder what some guys/gals are paying?...Red oak ply mdf core 3/4 58.00 a sheet 4×8 they have some other core for 49.00 red oak…

-- christoper Blanchard, Michigan

Purplev said it right at the beginning – Schedule, Budget or Quality. You cannot have all three – you can prioritize only two. If your priority is to optimize on budget – either the thing will take a long time or will suffer on quality. If you want it fast, you either pay more or suffer on quality. Considering places like walmart offer things fast and cheap, you suffer on quality. Period.

Always emphasize that your products are quality. It’s the only way. Novices won’t have a clue when you talk about your mortise and tenon joints… but people who want quality will always do that extra research so they are informed enough to make those kinds of decisions.

Quality lumber and plywood is expensive. Did you consider purchasing your kiln dried hardwood material
at a small mini sawmill near you? The plywood is what it is, however, I would bet you could have saved
40 percent of your $$ purchasing the hardwood from a small sawmill operation local to your area. I’d
encourage all woodworkers to look around in their geographic area and find min sawmill operations selling kiln dried hardwoods to woodworkers at a fair amount below retail hardwood stores. Get to know some local
sawyers in your area and you’ll be able to find your lumber rack full of quality material with $$
left in your wallet. Lets face it, we all need more of that these days….

-- Phil

I at times prefer to make my projects out of premium select pine boards because it is cheaper than hard wood. Pine will look just as nice as hard wood even though pine is soft.

-- Mark, Ohio, www.swig@nktelco.net

I am in one of the worst areas of the country to buy hardwood because everything has to be shipped in.

When I am in Ohio I can use various select logging mills and kilns. In Montana they virtually do not exist.

As a business I have to stick with quality suppliers. Call-backs do not make money.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Woodymays – I prefer to use poplar instead of premium select pine. Poplar is more stable and actually less expensive. I can stain it to create a wonderful look.

I just made this table out of poplar a couple of weeks ago. I call it the 10 hour table because it took that long from start to completely finished.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

i hqavent read every comment…so I may be off mark here…

But here is a question—-How often do you guys (pros) take clients with you to buy the wood and see the actual cost of the wood…not to mention see how professional you are in dealing with suppliers and getting a chance to explain how much work is involved…

Just wondering…because you guys are all heroes to me…

matt

-- Matt, Napa, CA...fun is beautiful...just trying to have some fun...

Todd,

In my business we get that all the time….In my line the big ticket item is labor though…..

I think America has been “spoiled” by the cheap junk we get in the big box stores. When you want a really top notch item….built to last…..you will find out that the price will never compete with the junk. Even when you demonstrate to the folks that by buying the junk…and replacing it everytime it breaks or fails due to shoddy material/workmanship….it ends up costing about the same as getting a quality item in the first place….(there are times when a cheap item is the way to go….but not when you need quality/longevity)

I couldn’t count how many times we have lost a bid to a lower bidder…only to have the company come to us later to clean up the mess the cheaper guy did…..but no matter how much you try to explain quality and pride of workmanship vs cheap and “good luck” to someone….most of the times it just doesn’t get through…

We still end up getting the majority of our business through referrals and repeats….so we aren’t the cheapest…and probably not the best in our field….but close….and so far we are still surviving and we do that by having pride in what we do…and doing the best job possible.

-- Woodworking.....My small slice of heaven!

People don’t even think about your years of experience and tools to complete the job correctly the first time.
I thought the government was setting our prices and how much we can profit.

-- Ron Central, CA

You can laugh at me (no really, it won’t hurt my feelings), but I started this hobby of mine because I thought I could build better furniture and save money doing it. Now after 5 yrs, I’ve got a few nice items and a mostly empty house because I never thought this would take me so long.

Instead of my money going to furniture, it went to tools. someday, maybe I’ll convert the lymber I’ve bought into furniture.

On the plus side, I appreciate fine craftsmanship much much more now.

Todd, Great subject. This affects almost every woodworker out there, whether we do it full time for a living or the hobbiest that wants to sell their work. I know we all work at different levels with our woodworking and that makes a difference in our pricing, but you have touched on some important factors. First off, we should never try to compete with mass produced furniture store funiture. We’re not factories, we’re not building thousands of the same thing and hopefully we’re not building it out of crap. We’re always going to run into customers that either don’t understand what Custom building is or doesn’t care, they just want to find the cheapest price. We don’t want or need that client. The best we can offer is to educate them on the difference. Second big mistake made is trying to use cheap materials. Like you said, stick with quality suppliers and materials…...Call backs don’t make money. Referring back to a1Jim’s post about if they’re only willing to pay for a volkswagon, no need to be looking at a Rolls Royce. Have you every seen one of the old Volkswagons on the road with the Rolls Royce grill? It’s still a volkswagon…...Like putting lipstick on a pig, you work really, really hard to make him look good, but it’s still just a pig.
We have to realize that we are not going to sell everyone custom work. That’s a small percentage of the buying market, but it’s up to us to educate them so they can make a intelligent decision.

-- John @ Myrtle Beach

Hokie – Ever notice how many woodworking magazines sell the thought, “Do It Yourself and Save Money!” I am one of the few that will honestly tell someone do not get into woodworking to save yourself money.

If you want to enjoy woodworking for the relaxation, challenge, or the feeling of pride in one’s work, that is fine but do not get into it to save money.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Huff – Well said. I guess I go through this every now and then. I always end up realizing that it is human nature for clients or potential clients to see how cheap they can get the work.

It is because of what I do for a living that causes me to appreciate the work that others do to make their living. I gladly pay my mechanic for taking good care of my vehicle. I don’t want to pay the cheapest price. I want to pay the price that gets the job done right the first time.

This is the basis for my pricing. I charge what it costs to do the job right the first time.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

reggiek, I like your last paragraph. Taking pride in what you do…..and doing the best job possible.

-- John @ Myrtle Beach

Todd: I’ve built furniture for people, and I my motto has always been: “If you have to ask how much it cost, you can’t afford it” ‘Nuff said.

-- Remember--- one good turn-- gets most of the blanket!!!!

When people start talking about how ‘expensive’ your price is, it is time to leave. You will never convince them otherwise They may recognize their error later. But you cannot. Just pick up your tools/equipment and quit wasting your time trying to sell.
Ira
Central CA.

-- Rustfever, Central California

I’ve sold things other than woodwork and it’s been my experience that when people begin with talking about price then they don’t see quality as a value and it’s a no sale from the get go.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

I must be getting lucky as the last few projects I didnt even have to “bid” the job as I was the only bidder and none of them even batted an eye when I told them how much.

Just the hinges on the last kitchen (butt hinges) were over 600 bucks, 1000 in guides, 2.500 in pre-finished maple plywood, over 1,500 in lacquers,..............and on and on and on.

The investment, albeit over a lifetime is significant,........build a shop…...200K, nice TS….30K…....nice shaper…..30K….....and on and on and on.

It’s an insane way to make a living!

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

This thread reminded me about a story I heard once.

This lady had a prescription too be filled.

After the lady left the store, he said to himself, “I only made $1.50 on that sale!”<(:O}

I’ll have to apologize to any Pharmacists, This is only a joke.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

I program, am a musician, and got into woodworking to fulfill a need for having something tactile to point to and say, “I made that”.

I find myself in constant amazement with the projects I see coming from this site, and the people who put them together. As I read about those who are here and working to make their living in wood, I get an appreciation for the commitment involved.

One fellow above asked how you can do it, and part of the answer, I believe, is that it’s something that you enjoy doing. That one fact makes a job SO much easier to do.

I agree that we are “spoiled” by the cheaper, often less sturdy, items we can get in stores now; though I believe it’s more that we’ve lowered our standards in favor of saving some of our paycheck. As I travel down the path of learning to work with wood, I realize that there is so much more to making the thing than just coming up with the idea.

The good thing is that, with woodworking, many other doors have been opened to me as far as repair and replacement are concerned. My appreciation for the costs of the materials, the labor involved, the need for a good design, all are a result from having to put that effort into my own projects.

I always tell my co-workers that if it were easy, everyone could do this. It’s not easy to be a craftsman; to understand the need for quality materials to make a quality product and the time to make it right. American society doesn’t appreciate the craftsman as much as we once did, but I like to think that it only takes a little time exposed to such people to find that care for a well-made item, the appreciation for the time and effort involved.

-- Making scrap with zen-like precision - Woodbutchery

Todd, Just to rub it in a little. I have a great relationship with my local forest product plant. I go through and order small orders, which usually kill people, obviously because you aren’t buying a large quantity. But, I would recommend you buy rough cut, maybe SFS2, SHORTS. I bought 110 bf, 5/4, 8 footers, which are considered shorts for only $200.
For all the LJ’s, what they do at the plant is take a log and begin the cutting process, and cut the shrecks (bark sides) and begin cutting the beam (main wood portion of the log). Cherry is wood that has little knotting, but it does have knots, mostly straight grain. You can either purchase the entire length boards 12-16’, knots and all. OR you can buy the pieces that they cut the knots out, shorts. Say they go 6’ to the first knot, they will cut the piece at this place, then say there is another knot at 8’, they then cut it there. Now you have clear cherry, knot free, and boards that you can store and handle. If you can’t store the lumber, what good is it to you? None, buy the shorts and save the head aches of storage and of the knots. I just priced my clears Friday the 25 and I can get cherry for $1.65 bf! Get it while you can boys.
One more piece of advice when buying wood, go to your local furniture factory or, if you don’t have one, find a person that does a step or two of wood working above you and see if you can piggy back of his order. He is buying bulk and you can take advantage of that. I went down to one of my friends that buys wood buy the flat bed, instead of buy the truck load and I am able to get clear oak 12’ boards for only 62 cents a bf!

-- Do we do this for purpose or passion?

People are always telling me to go into business for myself. My usual reply is, “I enjoy this wonderful hobby of mine waaaaay too much to turn it into a job, but if you need something custom made , I can do it for you”.
After discussing their wants and needs with them , I will either give them directions to WalMart , or have a project to make in my shop. Sometimes I feel as though I should charge them for my time spent during the discussion stage if they decide that WalMart is really more inline with their budgets , but again , this is mainly a hobby for me and I take the experience of chatting with people as a learning skill.

-- You know you're getting old when you know the difference between you're (you are) and your (belonging to you) AND how to use them in a sentence .

No wonder people recycle.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python