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Blog entry by stefang posted 02-09-2011 07:50 PM 991 reads 1 time favorited 12 comments Add to Favorites Watch

Another short update to show the outside rounding. I managed to get half of the stave’s rounded on the outside today. Some pics below to show you the result.

The first picture below shows the ‘Lag’ or dados cut.

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Here are some rounded in the photo below. I used the concave shaped template to first mark the curve on both ends and the to check my progress as I planed them. I used a spokeshave for this work as I felt it gave me better control. A regular hand plane would work well here also. The rounding work wasn’t difficult. It took about the same time as for the concave planing.

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You see below the bottom with half of the stave’s assembled. Note that I numbered the stave’s in their mounting order. I did this because I still have some very small edge angle adjustments to do and I want to make sure the stave’s go back in the same order to insure my joints are correct. And a pic from the top.

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You can see that the joints between the stave’s are pretty good now with this view of the outside shown below and the 2nd photo of the inside.

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The stave’s aren’t all the same length around the top. This will be correct before final assembly. I was able to save the shavings from all the planing work so far as shown below. I swept into a pile and it wasn’t as much as I thought it would be.

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I still have 7 stave’s to round on the outside and the dowel holes to drill before doing the binding work. I might not get a chance to work in the shop tomorrow, so I hope I can do this on Friday.

The work so far isn’t ‘masterly’, but it has been fun and I think the result will be nice if not wonderful. Thanks for reading.

-- Mike, an American living in Norway.



12 comments so far

View Dave's profile

Dave

11205 posts in 1595 days


#1 posted 02-09-2011 08:19 PM

Mike I have witnessed some barrel making at a few distilleries. I have never noticed doweling the staves. You and Mads are both doing it. Was it common practice for this stile bucket?

-- Superdav "No matter where you go - there you are." http://chiselandforge.com

View stefang's profile

stefang

13633 posts in 2089 days


#2 posted 02-09-2011 08:59 PM

Yes Dave What you saw was ‘coopering’ which is a much more advanced , and in some ways more difficult method, much better too. Our bucket is being made with a much more ancient method which was the forerunner to coopering, with examples having been found that date all the way back to 400 BC (in Greece).

Buckets similar to what we are making can also be a combination of the two methods. The coopering method uses a Croze groove which is a ‘v’ groove which is planed around the inside after the bucket is assembled. The bottom has a matching ‘v’ profile around its edge. It provides a much simpler and more effect moisture seal than our method.

-- Mike, an American living in Norway.

View mafe's profile

mafe

9693 posts in 1844 days


#3 posted 02-09-2011 09:12 PM

I still do not get it!
Does the stafs get to be dowel’ed’ together also?
I did just the bottom.
If they are, is it perhaps faster and more easy to ´plane the outside after, then they will stay.
Did they used something between the stafs as tightening? Like bark, moss or other?
Hmmm. as always a asking student here, feel a little imbaresd by now… Hop you bare with me.
I’m really impressed of the speed you are at now Mike, you are riding a wave now I’m in Paris… So I will have plenty to catch up with next week.
It’s looking so good there, I’m really deeply impressed.
Best thoughts,
Mads

-- Mad F, the fanatical rhykenologist and vintage architect. Democraticwoodworking.

View stefang's profile

stefang

13633 posts in 2089 days


#4 posted 02-09-2011 09:26 PM

Thanks Mads, Yes we use dowels between the stave’s with this method. I ‘think’ the dowels have two functions, first to keep the stave’s from changing shape too much when the bucket is getting wet and then dry all the time and strengthening the structure overall (think ribs aka frames in a wooden boat)., and secondly I think it helped the old timers to assemble the bucket as they didn’t have masking tape in those days (or so my wife informs me), lol.

-- Mike, an American living in Norway.

View mafe's profile

mafe

9693 posts in 1844 days


#5 posted 02-09-2011 09:31 PM

Yes we need those woman, no doubt, the can keep us to the ground…
Ahh, I’m happy, it will make things esier I think with these dowels, I started to get some gay hairs on thinking how to hold it tohether on it’s way.
Thank you,
Mads

-- Mad F, the fanatical rhykenologist and vintage architect. Democraticwoodworking.

View Dennisgrosen's profile

Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 1870 days


#6 posted 02-09-2011 09:31 PM

nothing wrong with asking Mads you know that , to bee silent is wrong when something bothers :-)

nice pile of shavings Mike, something i cuold avoid with the pine we can buy here on the island …LOL

take care
Dennis

View daltxguy's profile

daltxguy

1373 posts in 2669 days


#7 posted 02-09-2011 09:35 PM

I guess I had thought that you dowelled the staves, assembled them and then planed the outside to shape.
Is it easier to shape the outside while not on the bucket?
Is there a final shaping once the bucket is together and this step is to mainly remove the bulk of the material?

-- If you can't joint it, bead it!

View stefang's profile

stefang

13633 posts in 2089 days


#8 posted 02-09-2011 10:16 PM

Dennis Sounds good, maybe you could star bucket store called ‘Lazywood buckets’, lol.

Mads Did you see the part in the blog that suggest drilling the holes after all the planing is done? But you have my permission to do it however you want. I wouldn’t dare, partly because my stave’s are only 1cm thick after planing.

Steve I think it would be easier to plane the outside after assembly except that the dowels aren’t enough to hold the bucket together for that work, and a band around the outside gets in the way. So not impossible, but maybe better the way I did it with the stave’s clamped between bench dogs. You can also clamp them in other ways, such as in a long clamp standing on it’s edge, or a fixed piece of wood clamped to the work surface on both ends and a wedge between the wood piece and the work piece on one end to apply horizontal clamping pressure.

-- Mike, an American living in Norway.

View mafe's profile

mafe

9693 posts in 1844 days


#9 posted 02-10-2011 01:35 AM

I have no idea what I will do!
Next week will show, now I just enjoy to follow… Even as you have noticed it’s not a possition where I am in my comfort zone, I like to have ‘hands on’. But it’s good for me, to listen, and wait, so thank you.
I can see thedanger in making dowels early, but also the advantage.
Do we know if they used any kind of glue, I think animal glues are quite old? And did they used somthing to make it tight, or just the growing of the wood when wet?
Goodnight Mike, and thank you,
kiss your wife and tell her you are a good and patient teacher, this comes directly from the students,
Mads

-- Mad F, the fanatical rhykenologist and vintage architect. Democraticwoodworking.

View stefang's profile

stefang

13633 posts in 2089 days


#10 posted 02-10-2011 01:32 PM

Hi Mads. I hope you are enjoying your stay in Paris. Please give your Caroline my best regards.

I’m sorry about the confusion. It is easy for me to forget that everyone does not have a complete overview of the whole project. It was just too much info to write at one time, so I have chosen to give the instructions as they are needed to complete the next step. This also gives me a chance to photograph what I have done and just hope everyone else can do it better!

No sealants or glue were used on these vessels. The wood swells from the moisture and makes it water-tight. I must confess that I don’t really expect mine to be very tight, as I’m not sure how close tolerances are allowed where the bottom fits into the dado or for the joints between the stave’s. I plan to test it with water when finished, but after that it will be sitting somewhere dry.

I might not get into the shop before the weekend. I have some shopping and errands today and then I found out I have a dental appointment tomorrow. So maybe Saturday unless I’m lucky. Don’t worry too much about getting behind. There’s no rush, and we will all enjoy seeing your progress and also your approach to the work. I’m sure the ancients all worked in their own way too, but got equally good results. As the teacher, I give everyone the authority to use their own brains. I am just showing a way which I know will work, but there are surely many ways to do it and with different tools too.

-- Mike, an American living in Norway.

View sharad's profile

sharad

1066 posts in 2559 days


#11 posted 02-10-2011 07:48 PM

Mike I am highly impressed by this blog which I started reading a little too late. This reminded me of ice cream pots which we used when young for making all sorts of icecream. The outside vessel of this pot was made out of wooden strips just as you have shown in your blog for the bucket. Eagerly waiting to see the finished bucket.

Sharad

-- “If someone feels that they had never made a mistake in their life, then it means they have never tried a new thing in their life”.-Albert Einstein

View stefang's profile

stefang

13633 posts in 2089 days


#12 posted 02-10-2011 10:30 PM

Hello Sharad good to hear from you, and thank you for interesting comments. Yes, this technique is much wider spread than many realize with some finds of similar work from Greece dated to 400 BC. I wouldn’t be surprised if the original method comes from India or Egypt. Of course it is also very possible that the method has been ‘reinvented’ several times over as often happens when people facing similar problems come up with similar solutions. On the other hand it is probable that seafaring nations widely spread this technology. I know for example that the Romans made something similar, but the used nails to put the main components together. I hope you are well.

-- Mike, an American living in Norway.

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