Good Product, but isn't it overpriced?

Nice to see a comparative review of these two products. I surprised not to see a big difference in fit and finish of the Starrett product.

-- //FC - Round Rock, TX - "Experience is what you get just after you need it"

Thanks for the review… I spoke with a machinist friend of mine regarding why the Starret would be worth the cost and he said time is the real test; that he has had quite a few different rules and squares that started of good but after use & abuse could not keep up with his demands and only the Starret did. Maybe that the case here?

I can’t say for sure as I don’t own either of these combo squares. I just thought it might be food for thought…

-- Chris

I wish I could find stuff like that. I always find out about the sales after they are done, or they are too far away to reasonably get to on a busy weekend. The one time someone close by had some stuff, they knew what they had and it was all marked accordingly…sigh

I was lucky enough to snag some waterbed railings a couple weeks ago. Sure its probably only pine, but it was free, thick, and wide….all the rails were about 8/4 by 10 or 12 inches…the only problem is they have a finish on them, but I figure I can resaw that off. Gives me some play around wood.

but my dream is to find a decent jointer or fore plane, maybe a jack or smoother for a song…hehe. Course I think I share that dream with a lot of people.

by the way I went out and got the empire 6” pro version based on your recommendation in your other review(I think it was yours) eheh

-- If you can't build it, code it. If you can't code it, build it. But always ALWAYS take a picture.

Nice review and nice find for $20. Its good to know that a less expensive square holds up to an extent with the more expensive squares. But I guess if you need pinpoint percission the price may not be a big deal. I still think thats a great find at $20.

-- Steve-o

Looking through Empire’s specs I can’t find any mention of the squareness on their combo squares, other than the True Blue level vials.
Starrett specs. for the 12” combo is guaranteed accurate to +/- .00001”

I believe the difference can been seen if you miter a corner with each square and cut on the line.
The Empire square would be perfectly fine if marking rafters or joists, if you build a chest or a box, not so much.
I freely admit, I am anal retentive about square, plumb and level when there just isn’t any need it, like cutting the end of a log with a chain saw, character flaw on my part.

What I’m saying is the two tools have different intended uses.

-- .

Chris – I thought about the time issue as well, and although I have been using the Empire for several years, it’s still somewhat of a short time, and since I am the weekend warrior – I haven’t really stressed out any of my tools – so thats a good point you mentioned there… I guess time will tell us all.

BroDave – Empire Pro combination squares are guaranteed to within +/1 .0001” (one thousand of an inch) – it’s a nice thing to see that Starrett has a guarantee for a higher precision than that… but as woodworkers – I don’t really reckon we need that much precision do we? even to setup our tools and tables… but one point you mentioned was the 45 miter angle which I forgot to cover in this test… I’ll try adding that up later… another part of the tool that is critical and was overlooked.

-- My Drinking Club has a Woodworking Problem...

”Empire Pro combination squares are guaranteed to within +/1 .0001” ”

Ahh, I could not find that on their site.
“but as woodworkers – I don’t really reckon we need that much precision do we?”

It’s that anal retentive thing again Old Son. Probably don’t need it, just bothers me that I can’t get it. :D

Bench rest shooters have a saying.
Accuracy is a tiny hole that consumes huge amounts of money.

-- .

Hmm…. so I went to check Empire website, and you’re right – the guarantee only refers to the Vial and within 0.001”... I bought this a while ago, and I forgot what it was referring to… good catch – my bad (PS- I accidently wrote an extra 0 on my last post… I was thinking one thousands of an inch, but for some reason added one too many 0 to it making it 1 ten-thousands of an inch)

I’m anal about precision and quality… but only to a certain degree where it doesnt hurt me… BroDave – I guess you surpass me on that one by a mile… ;)

But all said and done – it is true that the Starrett is much better made (material, machining, etc), and I can see it go for $30-$40… but not twice that much… I just don’t see the reasoning – is there such low demand for it that there are less products sold that they need to get their money’s worth?

-- My Drinking Club has a Woodworking Problem...

Interesting review.

My thoughts:

I have never leveled anything with a combination square. Although you’ve got me thinking about what I could level.

I have found that the Starret handles more abuse (if you drop it per say (don’t ask how I know)).

Also the Starret has multiple styles of marking the various fractions. You can use a different side for each.

I would buy the Empire to lend to others though.

-- -John "Do I have to keep typing a smiley? Just assume it's a joke." www.flickr.com/photos/gizmodyne

Gizmo,

You slay me, buy a combo square to loan …..

-- //FC - Round Rock, TX - "Experience is what you get just after you need it"

Thanks for the review and all of the comments.

-- Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com

Oh yeah, I pegged the weird meter long ago.

I don’t mean to knock the Empire square or hi-jack your thread at all though.
I have several brands and types of squares in shop and they all have their place.

-- .

BroDave: hijack the thread? are you kidding? isn’t this is what its supposed to be? sharing info between everyone – the more input we get from more people, the closer we get to a real point of view. thanx for butting in… lol

-- My Drinking Club has a Woodworking Problem...

It is what it is… ! Starrett makes precision measuring and marking tools for people who value precision in their work. Price is subjective… Starrett charges what the market will bear. I love mine and consider it an investment in the future of my work. Should you decide your $20 Starrett is a needless frill, I’ll offer you double your money back. <g>

Tom

-- Anybody can become a woodworker, but only a Craftsman can hide his mistakes.

I’ll plus $1 that offer >:)

-- //FC - Round Rock, TX - "Experience is what you get just after you need it"

Oh no you two, I’ve been working on Purp all day, anyone gets the Starrett for less than he paid for it it’s got to be me. Naturally I would be happy to entertain any reasonable offer…

-- .

I’ll think about it guys…

-- My Drinking Club has a Woodworking Problem...

This is a nice review and you found a nice tool at a bargain price. I have been considering buying one of these simply because I enjoy quality tools (I have 4 combo squares now). But given your review I may just hold off until I can find one at a bargain price.

-- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby.

I can’t say i’ve ever run into a square that wasn’t square enough for woodworking. Maybe irritated by the occasional cheapo that doesn’t slide and lock down good. Put me in the “have a bunch of em at less than ten bucks” category for the increased odds of getting my hands on one when i need it.

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

gizmo I use mine to help set my router bit height. I set the measurement I want on the combo, set the ruler end on the table and raise the bit until the bubble is off-level, then lower the bit till its just back to level. Seems to work for me.

-- If you can't build it, code it. If you can't code it, build it. But always ALWAYS take a picture.

Yes the look and “feel” of the Starret brand is superior , but that’s a whole lot of money that I’ve put elsewhere and the squares that I have purchased for much less are STILL square for some reason …..go figure !

-- Dusty56@comcast.net

Iam still using the 12” starret I bought in 1972 and it’s just like the day I bought it. You get what you pay for.

-- Billp

My all time fave is a 6” Starret combo that rides in my apron. It’s always ready to check a tool or a cut edge.

I also have a 12”, with an additional 24” blade. Having had lots of layout tools, the part of Starret squares that keeps me coming back is consistency. The lock always works well, it stays square, the scribers always fall out and get lost <g>... I find the Starret blade the easiest to read in many different conditions, which is very important to me.

I have some others, ranging from cheap, and varying to the same price as the Starrett tools. The cheapies have a place, but none have the same day to day feel as my Starret versions.

FWIW, I’m not a brand loyalist. My favorite tapes are $7 Fast Caps, and my “reference” straight edge is a Veritas. I don’t like Starret tapes, and the Veritas edge is good enough for my uses.

-- -

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I left something out…

When I decide to spend on an expensive vs. cheaper tool with similar capabilities, one of the big factors is frequency of use. My 6” Starrett square can be touched literally 100 times in the course of a woodworking session. It gets used every session where wood size or shape is changed. About the only other tool where I can say the same is my tape, where I prefer a cheap Fast Cap.

To me, such a frequently used tool should be the version that feels exactly right to our own personal taste, regardless of cost.

BTW… A very nicely done, thought provoking review.

-- -

Given that the IWF is coming the end of this month I think I’ll post a little note with this.

Last time IWF was in town I was able to get a number of good deals on a number of products, including a Jet 14” bandsaw with riser and an Apollo HVLP sprayer. (To me a good deal is better than 30% off list.)

I stopped at the Starrett display and asked if they had any deals.

“Nope.”

“Why not?”

“Because we don’t have to.”

‘Nuff said.

Lee

-- No piece is cut too short. It was meant for a smaller project.

The review here looks at whether the squares are … well .. equally square and that their level bubbles line up … and then concludes that, since they do the same thing, therefore the Empire is equal to the Starrett and why pay the extra?

With this thinking, all planes are the same, all chisels are the same, all tablesaws are the same, all routers are the same ….

What about the construction of the two – materials used, construction, and finish. What about how they work in practice – which is easier to adjust, and how they feel in the hand. Does one want you to use it more than the other?

I have a Starrett (I have 4 different sizes, all purchased on eBay quite cheaply). I have the Empire (purchased before I knew better). There is a WORLD of difference between them: try a Starrett and feel it glide silkily. Notice the spring-loaded knob. Become aware of the reflection nature of the steel rule that is hard to read on the Empire but easy to do so on the Starrett. The Starrett comes in two finishes – chrome and matt. Check out the etching of the numbers, which is clearer. Guess what?!

Yes the Starrett is several times more expensive. If all you can afford is the Empire you are doing fine. At that price range it is a good enough square. But don’t compare it with a Starrett. It does not rate.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Building and Reviewing Tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

Thanks for your post, a very thoughtful point by point comparison. I had often wondered the same. After reading I went to the basement to see what types I owned, most found at flea markets, yard sales, BORG. Mainly Empire, 2 Starrett , and some Brown and Sharpre, and a very nice Union. I own the 6” Empire, which I use often in the shop. They work well enough for my needs, but when a rafter square is used daily for work, who am I talk precision. Sadly many of mine, clearly designed and built to a finer degree, long histories of improper upkeep is clearly visible. However, despite abuse, quality is still evident despite rust, knicks, etc. I guess, like anything, its up to the buyer to justify expense of any purchase. Bottled water for example, comes to my mind, empties litter my shop and truck. Should anyone know anything about the Union or B&S, how they compare to the Starrett, please let me know, seem to be very well built & relialable. Maybe the most expensive ones never lose their scribes.

-- Ciao, gth.