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Getting the right fit for hinges and brass screws is problematic

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Review by Bob #2 posted 04-02-2010 05:17 PM 3258 views 0 times favorited 17 comments Add to Favorites Watch
Getting the right fit for hinges and brass screws is problematic No-picture-s No-picture-s Click the pictures to enlarge them

I had occasion to purchase some extruded brass extra narrow butt hinges for project I’m working on this week around here Lee Valley is the only game in town for this type of hardware.
Unfortunately with the help of the counter clerk I managed to bollocks up the matching screw head sizes receive available hinge. Notwithstandingm yet another trip to the store on Saturday morning I found that they suggested head size #4 did not completely match the countersink in these hinges.
Nothing in fine cabinetry looks worse or draws the eye quicker than a shabby job on the hinges.
I couldn’t decide if the counter sinks in the hinges were incorrectly milled tor he head sizes of the screws were not correctly cut to produce a seamless fit. At any rate here is a picture of my problem:

From wood stuff 2010

The hinge on the left-hand side is one from the pair I purchased yesterday and the hinge on the right-hand side is a single is a single hinge left over from a previous project. These hinges seem thinner than the old style Thy used to carry.??
The #6 screws I received from Lee Valley were obviously incorrect. Make things worse the guy pulled one package of #8And a package of #6’s. The fine print in the catalogue suggests I should have received #4’s .
The #4 screws that I tried here in the shop do not fit well in the new hinges and seem to be a better fit in the old style hinge. I suppose the lesson learned here with so many variables in the manufacturing processes and so much material fabricated offshore that you should be sure to purchase both your hinges and the matching screws at the same time to be sure that you get a decent fit for your projects.
From now on I will insist that both the hinge and the screws be mated in the store before I leave.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner




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Bob #2

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17 comments so far

View teenagewoodworker's profile

teenagewoodworker

2727 posts in 2426 days


#1 posted 04-02-2010 05:32 PM

you should see if Horton Brasses ships up to you guys… They’re all i use and all of thier stuff is great quality

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TedM

2002 posts in 2391 days


#2 posted 04-02-2010 05:35 PM

I hear ya, man! Between finding the right hinge, finding a reasonably priced hinge, finding screws to fit the hinges, screwing the screws in so that they seat correctly… it really unhinges me too! :)

-- I'm a wood magician... I can turn fine lumber into firewood before your very eyes! - Please visit http://www.woodworkersguide.com and sign up for my project updates!

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Moron

4666 posts in 2551 days


#3 posted 04-02-2010 06:00 PM

the hinge on the right side, ....first screw on the left…...........looks like it fits perfect. I would much rather have the screw head slightly recessed, then slightly proud.

Butt hinges are very unforgiving but when seated correctly they work perfectly in perpatuity. You probably already know this but I always drive a #4 robinson in all screw holes, remove, wax the brass screw and then drive them in. Those brass screws give ZERO warning and shear off.

also…...is the pin removable ?.........if it isnt, then it can get frustrating when you close/open the door and the pin falls out.

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

View David Kirtley's profile

David Kirtley

1281 posts in 1656 days


#4 posted 04-02-2010 06:09 PM

And this is why you have to get your own countersink to touch things up.

-- Woodworking shouldn't cost a fortune: http://lowbudgetwoodworker.blogspot.com/

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Bob #2

3808 posts in 2680 days


#5 posted 04-02-2010 06:26 PM

Moron: I generally use a steel screw of similar thread and head to fit the holes to the hinges then switch to the brass heads for the final seating. Even then I have snapped a couple . @#%.

Dkirtley: I have countersinks but at the prices of these products($15.90/pr) I can’t help thinking that they should be matches to the recommended screw or , like the old days, come with matched screws.
Hinges from Great Britain and screws from C H I N A! What are the odds here? <g>

teenagewoodworker I may have to give them a try but I still like being able to see what I am buying which is why I favor Lee Valley for this type of product.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View Dusty56's profile

Dusty56

11659 posts in 2346 days


#6 posted 04-02-2010 06:28 PM

I have found in the past that not all screws and countersinks are made at the same angle / degree. I think it was on McFeelys site , but old age prevents me from being certain . I don’t know what is easier for you to do , make the the countersink in the hinge match the screws that you have (if not already too big) or find screws to match the countersink in the hinges.
The only thing that is consistent nowadays is inconsistency !
McFeelys 82 degree countersink
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/MS-3099/Make-IT-Snappy-82deg-Single-Flute-58quot-Diameter-Countersink

-- I'm absolutely positive that I couldn't be more uncertain!

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Karson

34878 posts in 3059 days


#7 posted 04-02-2010 06:43 PM

A great way to make a good day go bad.

I feel your pain Bob. We can buy countersinks for the hole, but what we also need is a way to mill the screw head to be the same angle.

-- I've been blessed with a father who liked to tinker in wood, and a wife who lets me tinker in wood. Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2680 days


#8 posted 04-02-2010 07:34 PM

My poking around this morning tells me that there are 3 different angles out there; 82°,90° and 100°.
82 ° was originally the standard for wood screws and countersinks. With products being manufacturered everywhere now it’s a crap shoot getting some of our most used parts to fit together.
The screws might be on and the hinges off and or vise versa and we havent even touched on diameters yet.
A decent manufacturer might well capitialize on this current market shortcomming.
One thing that would definitley help is if the screws wer supplied with the hinges. Stanley did this for years I know.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View Dusty56's profile

Dusty56

11659 posts in 2346 days


#9 posted 04-03-2010 05:45 PM

Hi Bob , I spent quite a bit of time researching the issue yesterday , and found out more than I’ll ever need to know about countersinks and screw heads and degrees of angle. None of which will help you with your present problem . I think that you are correct about the hinge company supplying the correct screws in the package with the hinges , but what if you need longer or shorter ones ? Maybe that should be up to the retailer selling the hinges to have matching screws of various lengths in stock , or at least the manufacturer should give us a link to additional screws that match their products in fit and finish : ) Happy Easter , my friend !

-- I'm absolutely positive that I couldn't be more uncertain!

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Bob #2

3808 posts in 2680 days


#10 posted 04-04-2010 04:27 AM

Hi Dusty:
I think the fellow that waited on me was not up to speed with the set up.
At Lee Valley at least each hinge sold has a screw size beside the order number.
When I first tried to buy the hinges (2-1/2” they were out f stock until mid may.I opted for the next smaller size (2-1/8”) and that’s perhaps how he got confused . When I got the packages home one pack was #6 round heads
the othe package contain #8 round heads leaving me in the ditch for my project until I coudl rpace them today.
Having snapped a couple of bars heads right off at the bevel I am more thatn a litle puck shy of the Chinese ones but that’s what Lee Valley is currently selling.
We shall see what tomorrow brings.

Thanks for the encouragement and Happy Easter.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View Orion's profile

Orion

15 posts in 1748 days


#11 posted 04-05-2010 03:35 PM

ISO 9000 standards spec 90 degree countersink angles. 82 degree countersinks are really better for woodworking. English made hinges use a 90 degree angle as well. SO if you fit American screws with their 82 degree head to English hinges you will have the heads sticking up. What you need to try is go down a size to a #3. I believe Lee Valley carries s line of English hinges, which are generally regarded as very good quality. I don’t carry those, I make my own, but I believe those hinges are spec’d for a #5 screw. Lee Valley likely recommends a #4 screw to fit the 90 degree countersink to account for that, but I could be wrong. The screws that are sticking up look bigger than #4 to my eye, but it is tough to tell without measuring. A flat head screw should sit just below the countersink, below flush. As someone else said, the screw on the right hand hinge, far left, is just about perfect. Whatever that size is go with it.

-- Horton Brasses Inc, makers of fine reproduction brass and iron hardware

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Bob #2

3808 posts in 2680 days


#12 posted 04-05-2010 03:51 PM

Thanks for the info Orion. It’s great to get the attention of an expert on a tough subject like this. ;-)
You don’t suppose you could recommend an American Manufacturer that can ship to Canada now could you?

Cheers
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

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Orion

15 posts in 1748 days


#13 posted 04-05-2010 06:08 PM

I prefer not to self promote on these things, but I own Horton Brasses and do ship to our northern neighbors all the time. I also have a relationship with Lee valley and hold them in very high regard.

-- Horton Brasses Inc, makers of fine reproduction brass and iron hardware

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Bob #2

3808 posts in 2680 days


#14 posted 04-05-2010 08:29 PM

That’s noble of you in a world that honors nothing.
I have not bad feeling about Lee Vallely and use their products fairly constantly,
there are several very good usppliers that I relay on as wel as Lee Valley as they cannot and do not carry everything that I use.
For instance, the 2-1/2 inch narrow body hinges are currently out of stock until mid May.
I am not prepared to wait that long to finish a project. It also make me leary about staring one until I have sourced my hardware. That’s the logistics of how business operates today with such high demand for good products.
I’ll go back to your webiste agian. I had visited on earlier advice on this thread.
I looked for your shipping conditions and did not see Canada listed as a destination.

Thanks for the info.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View Orion's profile

Orion

15 posts in 1748 days


#15 posted 04-05-2010 08:34 PM

We usually use Priority Mail for Canada. Either place the order online or call us-we will give you a shipping quote before doing anything. We provide the screws and spec the countersink angles (bucking ISO standards along the way) to get a good fit.

-- Horton Brasses Inc, makers of fine reproduction brass and iron hardware

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