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All Replies on Exterior untreated lumber... resistant to warping and rot (within reason)

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View marcVT's profile

Exterior untreated lumber... resistant to warping and rot (within reason)

by marcVT
posted 08-14-2017 05:28 PM


19 replies so far

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

4764 posts in 3238 days


#1 posted 08-14-2017 06:52 PM

I’m sure any local lumber yard in Vermont can special order any wood you want; it will just cost you. Cypress would be my first choice. Down here in the deep muggy south, cypress is the go to wood for outdoor projects.

View gargey's profile

gargey

973 posts in 770 days


#2 posted 08-14-2017 06:57 PM

I’d go with the oak, unless the customer has a huge budget.

View magaoitin's profile

magaoitin

246 posts in 944 days


#3 posted 08-14-2017 07:50 PM

There are a number of treatments other than copper based that we use all the time in Washington, and we have a lot of exposed wood timber structures that weather our rainy conditions. Most of the stuff my company does is all Doug Fir with clear sealers, and I have not heard of any warping on any of our work in the last 25 years. But all of our lumber is kiln dried prior to sealing. I think you would be end up being disappointed starting with a green oak

Boise Cascade has a en exterior rated Glulam beam that we use quite a bit, that is a kiln dried fir that is treated with their clear sealer and used exterior/marine grade adhesives, and maybe it would be worth it to buy premanufactured beams instead of laying-up your own.

Check our Permapost Hi-Clear II. It isn’t a copper based sealer, but uses IPBC’s for the mold and antifungal. It is an above ground sealer only, so it might work in your application with any species.

-- Jeff ~ Tacoma Wa.

View bold1's profile

bold1

293 posts in 1841 days


#4 posted 08-14-2017 08:34 PM

Can you get Hemlock? Little warpage when drying and if the old folk could not get Cedar or Chestnut their next choice was usually Hemlock for shingles.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

524 posts in 743 days


#5 posted 08-14-2017 10:02 PM

If you go with oak, be sure it’s white oak and not red oak.

View cabmaker's profile

cabmaker

1730 posts in 2803 days


#6 posted 08-14-2017 10:21 PM

douglas Fir

View marcVT's profile

marcVT

10 posts in 280 days


#7 posted 08-15-2017 11:27 AM

Thanks for the input. I think the Douglas Fir is a west coast monster. You guys in the west have a nice selection. I’ve got a brother in British Columbia on the water. They fall a tree in the water and tow it to the local mill and get a zillion board feet from 1 tree. Not so lucky in Vermont. Beautiful hardwood… just like weeds compared to the west. I love this forum. I started reading ‘understanding wood’ by Bruce Hoadley last night. Someone on a post had suggested it. It is an amazing book. I’m not a huge reader but I’m reading this one. Another lumberjock posted that its smart to seal the end grains with Anchor-seal when using green lumber. This forces the wood to dry uniformly instead of lose moisture like nuts out the ends where it is cut, causing unusual warping, splitting. This is novice info to you folks I’m sure but priceless info to me. I will check out the Permapost Hi-Clear II. Vermont has very environmental conscience people like Washington state. I grew up building sea walls from used creosote railroad ties:) Those things are outlawed now on the waterfront in Nova Scotia where I’m from. Funny how things that prevent pests from killing wood usually kills us humans also. I will post again and hope to contribute to this forum. I might go for the white oak with its good grain. It will make the customer happy and it’s a treat to work with. My beams will all be drilled on drill press and bolted tight. I’ll load some pictures in time. I can get hemlock (like bold1 suggested) dirt cheap and have a feeling it will cooperate more than the oak. That might be the smart choice. Cost is a constraint unfortunately. Rough sawed hemlock is ~80 cents a board foot. White oak ~$1.50. This is at mills around Vermont and upstate NY. Thanks again.

View ScottM's profile

ScottM

639 posts in 2141 days


#8 posted 08-15-2017 12:42 PM

Ahhh, creosote. The good old days. That stuff lasts a lifetime. Burned your skin like hell!!!

View marcVT's profile

marcVT

10 posts in 280 days


#9 posted 08-15-2017 01:03 PM

Can’t wait to build my own portable horizontal bandsaw and make my own lumber. Probably not worth the investment considering the plane work and good planers are not cheap…...but all that sawdust!!! I’ve seen some that use a big cc husky/stihl on an aluminum ladder track but I like the bandsaw. Sorry way off topic. I’ll cease:)

View marcVT's profile

marcVT

10 posts in 280 days


#10 posted 08-16-2017 02:44 PM

As a follow up. I spoke with a local mill. They recommend Hemlock if using green lumber like bold1 suggested.
It’s cheap too! They can get Douglas Fir and Cedar but 5x the cost. I’ll post some pictures when I get this thing underway. Thanks

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2399 posts in 3865 days


#11 posted 08-16-2017 03:38 PM

+ 1 on the hemlock.. have done work in VT .. and there are tons of cabins and houses and everything covered in hemlock and it last untreated for years

View josephf's profile

josephf

197 posts in 2091 days


#12 posted 08-30-2017 04:45 AM

why plastic resin glue ? just asking . Pretty much use Tb 111 for everything now .Water proof . I have read research and it performs very well . cleans up easy also . i forget why i stopped using plastic resin glue .
west coast guy myself and it seems we do have whole different wood selection .
as for sealer i do not like any of the plastic coating type products due to flaking and looking sloppy in few years . tend towards hard oils or just oils and then a sealer . some of the european products cost a lot but I get far better results with alot less effort .

View tomsteve's profile

tomsteve

783 posts in 1213 days


#13 posted 08-30-2017 12:22 PM

a quick google search for me shows a few lumber suppliers in vermont that have cedar.

think i saw a sawmill or 2,too

http://www.cedarsawmillofvt.com/index.html
http://kerberlumber.com/

white oak will shrink Radially 5.6%, tangentially 10.5%, per Bruce Hoadleys’ book Understanding Wood.
if you put a finish on it right away, youll be wasting a lot of money- especially if you use sikkens products- which IMO are great products.
IMO, stay away from using green lumber. take the time and find a supplier for kiln dried lumber.

i hope youve had an engineer ok these beams and construction methods
and the local building dept,too.

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3319 posts in 1792 days


#14 posted 08-30-2017 02:17 PM

Is there any reason to use green other than cost and availability? I don’t know a lot about green lumber, but it seems like it brings in a whole host of complications.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View josephf's profile

josephf

197 posts in 2091 days


#15 posted 08-30-2017 02:33 PM

the shrinkage is murder .your post maynot stay straight and generally crack . beams will do the same plus get narrower .
I do not understand the question here . do you have all your lumber .are you unsure of using laminated material . was this only about the sealer needed

View marcVT's profile

marcVT

10 posts in 280 days


#16 posted 09-01-2017 10:18 AM

Thanks for the input guys. I was going with epoxy because of the green lumber. After all the feedback I believe I’ll use kiln dried lumber. I wanted to save money. I found a good local mill that has hemlock. Hoadley’s book has taught me a lot too. I did put too many questions in my original post. I would like to try with cheap green hemlock and air dry if time were no issue. Future projects I may do that. Understanding wood had great instructions on how to do it right.
The structure is over-designed for snow load. I am an engineer and have done the stress analysis. Don’t hold that against me. Calculations and software are important but doing things right and listening to you folks is just as important to me. My experience in engineering has taught me the people who know the most about any machine are usually the guys building them and using them. The best engineers I’ve met are not afraid to ask questions and learn. The young know-it-alls who think they only need a PC tend to re-invent the wheel or make colossal mistakes.

I know some post beam people use green lumber and don’t worry about it. Those frames crack though.
I talked to the state inspector and I need to stamp the drawings if they are for public use. To do that and sleep at night I better use kiln dried. What stinks is the lumber that is structurally graded from huge commercial mills at HD and Lowes is not as good quality as the local mills. I’ll go with the Tb 111 like you said josephf.

I am testing the beams for strength with a hydraulic jack and then driving a truck on them to check for deflection.

Thanks for all the input and advice. I will post a few pictures when I get this sorted out.

View josephf's profile

josephf

197 posts in 2091 days


#17 posted 09-01-2017 02:23 PM

So questions . Is there not a good lumber mill in your area .Where i am there are lowes and home depot but also more contractor yards . Just sell supplies to builders .
glad you skipped the green wood ,can be real discouraging when it moves .glad you skipped treated ,stuff is nasty .
look forward to the pictures

View tomsteve's profile

tomsteve

783 posts in 1213 days


#18 posted 09-05-2017 07:10 PM

I am an engineer and have done the stress analysis.

I am testing the beams for strength with a hydraulic jack and then driving a truck on them to check for deflection.

- marcVT

.is that how engineers do it now? :)

View marcVT's profile

marcVT

10 posts in 280 days


#19 posted 09-06-2017 12:37 AM

Ha. yes not glamorous. I respect the calculations and software but a 50 tons from Hydraulic Jack makes for better sleep. It’s fun to check The predicted failure against calculated which is usually very low. Engineers aren’t that smart and error on the safe side:) I’ll get some pictures up when done.

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