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View rwe2156's profile

Screwed

by rwe2156
posted 04-04-2017 01:50 PM


45 replies so far

View diverlloyd's profile

diverlloyd

2934 posts in 1942 days


#1 posted 04-04-2017 01:54 PM

Welcome to the designed to fail philosophy that all started with the light bulb.

View Monte Pittman's profile

Monte Pittman

29670 posts in 2423 days


#2 posted 04-04-2017 02:09 PM

They should ban Phillips screws.

Yes, very loose tolerance on what is allowed.

-- Nature created it, I just assemble it.

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8295 posts in 2661 days


#3 posted 04-04-2017 02:11 PM

If you can’t GRK it:

Spax it:

View Nubsnstubs's profile

Nubsnstubs

1330 posts in 1815 days


#4 posted 04-04-2017 02:22 PM

I give Torx another 10 years or so, and you’ll all be complaining about them like you’re complaining about Phillips today. I’ve watched people using a #1 Phillips screwdriver on a #2 screw, and wonder why it slips. I’ve even seen people try to stuff a #3 bit or screwdriver into a #2 screw. It’s not always the parts nor the tool. It’s the user. The only problem I’ve found with Phillips drivers is they wear out too soon…....... jerry (in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

View UpstateNYdude's profile

UpstateNYdude

917 posts in 2067 days


#5 posted 04-04-2017 02:24 PM

Personally my favorite screw heads are square, I’ve never rounded one out and they always seem to fit tight with whatever bit comes in the box.

-- Nick, “I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it.” – Vincent Van Gogh

View Monte Pittman's profile

Monte Pittman

29670 posts in 2423 days


#6 posted 04-04-2017 02:28 PM

Jerry is correct, you “should ” use the right tool in the right screw. I do think that Phillips and flat blade screws lend themselves to improper tool use more than others.

I am a torx fan. As much as possible, that’s all I use.

-- Nature created it, I just assemble it.

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1239 posts in 2080 days


#7 posted 04-04-2017 02:29 PM

And then you finally find that right bit and the screw head material is so soft it strips out anyway. Or you get all but the last two threads in the pilot hole and the top twists right off.

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8295 posts in 2661 days


#8 posted 04-04-2017 02:40 PM

No cam outs with the square ones as well:

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

8031 posts in 2882 days


#9 posted 04-04-2017 02:54 PM

Come to Canada, the land of Robertson. The only place you find Phillips is in imports from USA.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2630 posts in 2967 days


#10 posted 04-04-2017 02:56 PM

I’m not sure if it’s a Canadian thing, but you can only really buy Robertson (square) drive screws up here. They work great with minimal cam-out. I agree with the complaints about Phillips screws, I try to avoid ever having to use them.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View Woodchuck2010's profile

Woodchuck2010

712 posts in 943 days


#11 posted 04-04-2017 03:08 PM

Spax has some good screws in many different drives. They have a Uni drive screw that takes either a #2 phillips OR square bit. I like the square.

-- Chuck, Michigan,

View AHuxley's profile

AHuxley

727 posts in 3406 days


#12 posted 04-04-2017 03:22 PM


User: “Crap, now where did I put that other bit…...(walking back to the shop cussing)

- rwe2156

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

4355 posts in 797 days


#13 posted 04-04-2017 03:51 PM

LMAO ….not at you rwe …with you knowing exactly what you mean …...I do love square drive myself

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5035 posts in 2578 days


#14 posted 04-04-2017 03:52 PM

I’ve long thought there should be a federal law banning slotted screws, and the only time phillips was allowed is on drywall screws (the cam-out helps with that application). While I’m not find of Torx, they do work well but with square you can have 3 drivers to cover like 90% of the screws, and then add a couple more for the rest, and they grip just as well as torx (my opinion) although with torx you an drive at a slight angle.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Jack Lewis's profile

Jack Lewis

309 posts in 1163 days


#15 posted 04-04-2017 04:12 PM

Jerry; You can fix stupid!

-- "PLUMBER'S BUTT! Get over it, everybody has one"

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

8031 posts in 2882 days


#16 posted 04-04-2017 04:20 PM


I m not sure if it s a Canadian thing, but you can only really buy Robertson (square) drive screws up here. They work great with minimal cam-out. I agree with the complaints about Phillips screws, I try to avoid ever having to use them.

- Manitario

If you Google the Robertson story you will find that the reason they are hard to find in the USA is about the eccentricities of the inventor, one Peter Lymburner Robertson. He invented (the practical production process for) the drive in 1908 and got Canadian patent in 1909 but was suspicious of American manufacturers in general and refused Henry Ford an exclusive license in particular. It is an interesting story. Here is one account.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._L._Robertson

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

5849 posts in 1223 days


#17 posted 04-04-2017 04:50 PM

Phillips screws were originally designed so they WOULD cam out. It was to prevent overzealous workers in automotive plants from stripping threads or torquing screwheads off. Personally, I think they all work just fine as long as you use the right driver.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View RobS888's profile

RobS888

2472 posts in 1930 days


#18 posted 04-04-2017 05:01 PM

I bought a set of these double ended bits.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LAZ0NKG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It is nice to have Robertson and Phillips on one bit.

-- I always suspected many gun nuts were afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

6846 posts in 2283 days


#19 posted 04-04-2017 05:26 PM

From a 1936 Popular Science magazine:

Main selling point was self centering and ability to be held on the end of a driver.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

8031 posts in 2882 days


#20 posted 04-04-2017 05:38 PM


From a 1936 Popular Science magazine:

Main selling point was self centering and ability (and lucky) to be held on the end of a driver.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

Too bad they don’t. You can put a Robertson on the end of a screwbit in a drill, reach into a hole and run the screw one handed with no pilothole. At best with a magnetic driver bit, you can get a Phillips screw to the spot but you are going to have to be aligned perfectly to drive it without a hole. ...... and then there are bronze screws…..

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

4922 posts in 3328 days


#21 posted 04-04-2017 06:57 PM

It sounds like a conspiracy to get people to use more expensive screws. Torx, square and Robertson drive screws can get expensive on a big project like a deck. I try to use the least expensive screws and use the proper drivers which is the biggest failure with screw users; not using the right driver. People usually don’t pay much attention to the type of fastener used. Fasteners are a huge topic in itself. During my engineering days, my choice of fastener was just as important as the items to be fastened. Not to over complicate things, fasteners in this context meant not only wood screws, but also machine screws, nails, pins, tapes and adhesives.

View MinnesotaSteve's profile

MinnesotaSteve

54 posts in 976 days


#22 posted 04-04-2017 07:10 PM

Wait until you realize out most of the cross-head screws you are encountering are actually pozidriv and not philips.

and pozidriv screwdrivers aren’t that common in US hardware stores. And while a philips bit will work, it doesn’t work very well.

Then you’ll really scream. :-)

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8295 posts in 2661 days


#23 posted 04-04-2017 07:44 PM

Good point on the Pozidrive

View Underdog's profile

Underdog

1151 posts in 2120 days


#24 posted 04-04-2017 07:59 PM

Too many cross type Phillips style bits to keep track of them all, and get the right bit for the screw. And I’m not a fan of torx bits either. I’ve messed up a lot of them over the years when trying to back screws out.

I’ll take a square drive over any of them.

View TravisH's profile

TravisH

591 posts in 2020 days


#25 posted 04-04-2017 08:12 PM



Phillips screws were originally designed so they WOULD cam out. It was to prevent overzealous workers in automotive plants from stripping threads or torquing screwheads off. Personally, I think they all work just fine as long as you use the right driver.

- HokieKen

My experiences also.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5035 posts in 2578 days


#26 posted 04-04-2017 08:32 PM



Personally, I think they all work just fine as long as you use the right driver.

- HokieKen

I don’t dispute that., but I also don’t want a tool chest with 150 different screwdrivers in it and have to search for the right one for whatever type is on deck. To me that’s a key advantage (one of many) of square drive.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View ohtimberwolf's profile

ohtimberwolf

847 posts in 2437 days


#27 posted 04-04-2017 08:38 PM

In the past I have thrown out all of my straight slot screws. I am nearly to that point with philips. It never made sense to me to have to push as hard as I could on a screw head while trying to back it out in the opposite direction.

I just came back from Keim Lumber in Charm OH after buying three boxes of square head screws; 3/4×6, 3/4×8, and 4/3×10. This will cover a lot of my work and when I need to replace a lot of the straight slot on something it gets replaced with the square head. The old ones are not saved they are tossed. I wouldn’t miss it if they never made another straight slot or philips screw unless it was for specialty replacement.

-- Just a barn cat, now gone to cat heaven.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

3400 posts in 2073 days


#28 posted 04-04-2017 08:44 PM

I do fine with phillips screws if I throw worn out bits away.

I like the square-x drive especially the Highpoint brand from Woodcraft. They are self tapping and very strong.

View pontic's profile

pontic

622 posts in 693 days


#29 posted 04-04-2017 08:50 PM

I’m a man of the stark basics. One driver for all the fasteners. I use those innovative threadless screws. They only need one driver for all sizes. To add to the productivity the driver has an extractor on the end of it. The extractor on my driver has a unique claw shape. You all should try this system.

-- Illigitimii non carburundum sum

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1363 posts in 1308 days


#30 posted 04-04-2017 09:39 PM

I’ve never had a problem with phillips using an impact driver.

I will say that square heads are the only ones I’ve had problems with the bit getting stuck in the head of the screw.
When doing pocket holes using square head screws from Kreg and their bit, I still have had the bit jump out from time to time so there’s no full proof screw that is perfect.

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

1687 posts in 2950 days


#31 posted 04-04-2017 09:45 PM

I think a lot of the issues are caused by cheap screws and/or cheap screw drivers. I work in aviation and we use phillips heads on many things and we do have screws round off but it is almost always because the person was using the wrong size screwdriver or had a cheap one. I have gotten out screws that looked like they were toast using a good snap-on screwdriver of the correct size.

Most fasteners are over torqued to all hell also, if you look up recommended torque for a fastener then actually feel what that torque is you most likely will say “that is it?”.

If you do get pozi and phillips intermingled you are going to have problems, problem is pozi screws look exactly like phillips.

There are about 20 different types of screw heads used in aviation and most of them suck way more than phillips btw.

View Kazooman's profile

Kazooman

1089 posts in 2037 days


#32 posted 04-04-2017 09:59 PM


I do fine with phillips screws if I throw worn out bits away.

I like the square-x drive especially the Highpoint brand from Woodcraft. They are self tapping and very strong.

- Redoak49

So, how did the bits get worn out in the first place? From slipping! I have yet to wear out a square drive bit. One issue with square drive is that you can apply so much torque without slippage that you can shear off a screw.

View William Shelley's profile

William Shelley

576 posts in 1554 days


#33 posted 04-04-2017 10:44 PM

Robertson bits do last a long time but I have big issues with slightly worn bits sticking in the screw. I have to reverse the driver slightly to ‘break’ the bit out.

Funny how nobody has mentioned external hex-head screws :) With a magnetic nut-driver, they’ll go in perfectly every time.

-- Woodworking from an engineer's perspective

View papadan's profile

papadan

3584 posts in 3453 days


#34 posted 04-05-2017 12:47 AM



I ve long thought there should be a federal law banning slotted screws, and the only time phillips was allowed is on drywall screws (the cam-out helps with that application). While I m not find of Torx, they do work well but with square you can have 3 drivers to cover like 90% of the screws, and then add a couple more for the rest, and they grip just as well as torx (my opinion) although with torx you an drive at a slight angle.

- Fred Hargis


Phillips was just invented in the 60s and the rest since then. Outlaw slotted and everyone would have to burn all their furniture. LOL

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

6846 posts in 2283 days


#35 posted 04-05-2017 01:09 AM

Phillips was just invented in the 60s and the rest since then.
- papadan

Actually the 30’s… see the Popular Science magazine clipping I posted above from 1936.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

3948 posts in 1852 days


#36 posted 04-05-2017 02:38 AM

Screw it.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View jopo's profile

jopo

40 posts in 1320 days


#37 posted 04-05-2017 03:39 AM

I’m not sure I agree with the OP.


Screw engineer 1: “Hey, lets design our screws so they take 3 different size bits!”

- Well, slotted drivers came in many sizes and if you use the wrong size, they can be absolutely so frustrating.


Screw engineer 2: “Great idea. And how about this: design the bits so they re rounded on the end AND they fit a little loose that way they will wobble all over the place when you run the screw in!”

- They don’t fit loose. If you get a decent bit and screw, they fit nice and tight.

I just laid down over 500 sq’ of decking using Torx 25 screws and they are 1000x better then slotted. Yes…they are 10x better then Phillips but damn, if any driver deserves the hate of thousands of internet wood jockies…it the the slotted.

View runswithscissors's profile

runswithscissors

2804 posts in 2110 days


#38 posted 04-05-2017 04:21 AM

The ones that baffle me are the combo heads—phillips with square. Its as if the screws come already cammed out for whichever type of driver you want to use. And square drive bits can become rounded, and then they will cam out of the screw head.

Interestingly, one of the nicest screwdrivers I’ve had was a ball-end square drive. This was strictly for hand driving, but I don’t see why they couldn’t be adapted for power driving. You can drive a screw, with no slipping, up to maybe 20 or so degrees off axis. I’ve used them where there was no other way to drive a screw, even with a shorty screwdriver.

But oddly, the hardware store where I bought them some years ago has never heard of them. Bondhus brand I believe. I only ever had #1 and #2 sizes.

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

9862 posts in 1571 days


#39 posted 04-05-2017 04:38 AM

Don’t tell me about wonky screws. The 6-32s that come with receptacles and switches have a flat/#1sq/philips combo crap going on. A new Phillips bit can strip them out if you’re not careful.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

7022 posts in 3452 days


#40 posted 04-05-2017 05:05 AM

The only screws I do not like and will not use are slotted, machine or wood!
I have no issue with any other type as long as the proper driver is used!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

4922 posts in 3328 days


#41 posted 04-05-2017 05:32 PM

Many of the screw head types used are security screws; they require a special driver. They are used in places like toilet stalls to prevent theft of fixtures and other things of value.

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

1687 posts in 2950 days


#42 posted 04-05-2017 08:46 PM


Many of the screw head types used are security screws; they require a special driver. They are used in places like toilet stalls to prevent theft of fixtures and other things of value.

- MrRon

Who the hell would steal a used public toilet seat, I don’t like sitting on them let alone touching them with my hands.

I’ve always wondered why bathroom stall walls are usually put in with security screws, are they are hot ticket item to steal. Pee splashed rusted steel dividers are in demand?

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4426 posts in 3827 days


#43 posted 04-06-2017 08:57 PM



Come to Canada, the land of Robertson. The only place you find Phillips is in imports from USA.

- shipwright


Hey Paul. The square drive screws and bits here (mc feeleys). Are they compatible with robertson or are they sized different. (Just different enough to not work )

-- “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” Mark Twain

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5035 posts in 2578 days


#44 posted 04-07-2017 11:11 AM

The Robertson screws have a slight taper to the hole and the driver, kinda of a MT type of fit. Some of the US stuff have no tapers in the hole, though it looks to me like most of my drivers have that taper. they seem to interchange just fine…at least to me.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View hotbyte's profile

hotbyte

991 posts in 3060 days


#45 posted 04-07-2017 07:25 PM

I’ve noticed stall walls here at work are a nice plastic like textured UHMW…they might make some nice jigs and fixtures :)

Many of the screw head types used are security screws; they require a special driver. They are used in places like toilet stalls to prevent theft of fixtures and other things of value.

- MrRon

Who the hell would steal a used public toilet seat, I don t like sitting on them let alone touching them with my hands.

I ve always wondered why bathroom stall walls are usually put in with security screws, are they are hot ticket item to steal. Pee splashed rusted steel dividers are in demand?

- patcollins


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