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View ToddTurner's profile

I need help with raised panels-

by ToddTurner
posted 1660 days ago


21 replies so far

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112020 posts in 2212 days


#1 posted 1660 days ago

Hey Todd
When building make sure you glue is good by testing it, you could have used Mortice and tenons or biscuits. or even dowels .after the fact you can predrill screw and plug.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View Rick  Dennington's profile

Rick Dennington

3333 posts in 1829 days


#2 posted 1659 days ago

Greetings Todd: I’m no cabinet maker, or cabinet master, but have made a few. I would sugesst you run them through a drum sander if you have one to get them all uniform and flat. If everything went good in the glue-up, and the jointry is tight, then a couple of passes through the d.s. should take care of the minor problem…..........sounds like that’s all it is…... if no drum sander, then hit them with a random orbit sander acouple of good likcks…. that should do it…......... later.

-- " I started with nothing, and I've still got most of it left".......

View beginrbldr's profile

beginrbldr

99 posts in 1677 days


#3 posted 1659 days ago

are you talking about if you lay the door flat on the table and you run your fingers across the rail and style joint you feel the style is higher than the rail or are you talking about the very top of the door where the styles height lifts above the rail?

-- Jeff, Laguna Hills CA

View ToddTurner's profile

ToddTurner

144 posts in 1958 days


#4 posted 1659 days ago

Beginr-Its the 2nd one you mentioned-the very top of the door. Good question. I never thought about specifying.thanks

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112020 posts in 2212 days


#5 posted 1659 days ago

What kind of joinery do you have and is the problem that it’s loose or that it was misaligned when glued together?

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View beginrbldr's profile

beginrbldr

99 posts in 1677 days


#6 posted 1659 days ago

In my opinion i think its seasonal movement. I could be wrong though.

-- Jeff, Laguna Hills CA

View Rick  Dennington's profile

Rick Dennington

3333 posts in 1829 days


#7 posted 1659 days ago

Todd: Sorry….. my mistake. I was thinking it was some doors that you just made….. they are already in the kitchen…....I must of had a braincramp. I went back and re-read the blog again…. my mistake…........

-- " I started with nothing, and I've still got most of it left".......

View John Ormsby's profile

John Ormsby

1279 posts in 2371 days


#8 posted 1659 days ago

It most likely has something to do with the type of glue you used. Could you please tell us what type you used?

-- Oldworld, Fair Oaks, Ca

View GFYS's profile

GFYS

711 posts in 2105 days


#9 posted 1659 days ago

DO NOT…set the rails into the styles all the way to the panel. The panel should be loose. Line up the ends of the styles with the edges of the rails when you assemble them.

“I need help with raised panels” is the topic of this thread…If it isn’t doors you are refering to..could you please specify exactly what it is you are talking about?

Oh and btw…it’s typical that the doors will need sanding flush at this joint…so if its a “few thousandths” there is nothing to do differently…better the styles stick out a bit than the rails.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14727 posts in 2310 days


#10 posted 1659 days ago

“better the styles stick out a bit than the rails” Why?

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View GFYS's profile

GFYS

711 posts in 2105 days


#11 posted 1659 days ago

Why?

Because then he only needs to take down the ends of the styles rather than the entire length of the rails. Given that the style ends are generally polished on the edge sander anyway I would think this a “no-brainer”

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14727 posts in 2310 days


#12 posted 1659 days ago

It probably is to a cabinet maker ;-))

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1703 days


#13 posted 1659 days ago

Todd -
Can you feel the difference at the bottom rail/stile joint or only on the top joint? Like Jeff, I’m thinking that this is normal expansion/contraction movement. Wood expansion/contraction is mostly across the grain and contraction of the rails could cause your situation. If the joints haven’t actually failed, let them alone for now and check them again in the summer. I’m betting that the problem will be gone – or at least lessened.

Are they cope and stick joints? When I make cope and stick doors, I use a small brush to “paint” my glue (usually Titebond II) on all joint surfaces. When clamping them up, I apply enough just enough clamp pressure to completely close the joints and wipe off the squeeze out with a damp cloth (damp, not soaking wet). Then, I let them sit in the clamps for several hours (preferably overnight).

Another consideration is the type of wood you’re using. Soft woods will move more than hard woods.

Although I don’t think that your panels are causing the problem, it’s always best to make the panels slightly undersized so they can move without stressing your frame joints. I go for ~1/8” undersized, use space balls, and just put a dab of glue at the rail centers.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View John Ormsby's profile

John Ormsby

1279 posts in 2371 days


#14 posted 1659 days ago

Are the raised panels floating or did you glue the edges to the stiles and/or rails?

-- Oldworld, Fair Oaks, Ca

View Chris Wright's profile

Chris Wright

529 posts in 2116 days


#15 posted 1659 days ago

I’ve done breadboard ends on table tops before (similar to a raised panel) and with the wood shrinks across the grain revealing a slight “overhang” (in one case almost a 1/16”) I can’t think of anything that you can really do to prevent it from happening in the future, the only way I fixed it was to trim the over hang off, sand it and refinish.

-- "At its best, life is completely unpredictable." - Christopher Walken

View reggiek's profile

reggiek

2240 posts in 1905 days


#16 posted 1659 days ago

Great info here…thanks to all….I use a rail/stile bit in my router and then a raised panel bit to make the insert. I then glue with Titebound III and clamp with angle clamps….so far that has served (but then most of the items I have made this way have not been in use for a long time to see if they shift or fail)...but the info here has added food for thought and some different techniques to consider.

-- Woodworking.....My small slice of heaven!

View GFYS's profile

GFYS

711 posts in 2105 days


#17 posted 1659 days ago

skeezics a few thousands of an inch dood…oh wait you are probably one of those lumberjocks that makes sure after every job all the doors are exactly the same size to the nearest .00000001

It probably looks awful after you take the rail down another .002 and now it’s a different width than all the other doors. :/

View ToddTurner's profile

ToddTurner

144 posts in 1958 days


#18 posted 1659 days ago

Guys this is great feedback. I really appreciate everyone’s thoughts and time here. Basically, I have incorporated a little of everything yall have mentioned so I am convinced it could be seasonal movement. Mostly, because of the severe weather we’ve had here lately and i keep the house cooler because of the cost of heating.
The material is maple
I use coped joints, with pretty heavy glue on the tongue’s only.
I do not glue the panels to the frames ever. THis is a no-no from what I have seen and read.
mics_54-yes a few thousandths is highly critical to me. It comes from my machinist background. .003” might as well be 3inches to me. Maybe I am too critical with the measurements?
The oldest doors have been in for 6 months and this is the only movement I have seen so far. No cracks, no warps, nothing else. I just dont want to see it get worse and before i finish the job i wanted to make whatever changes i needed correct it. Again, thank you fell jockers!
Todd

View GFYS's profile

GFYS

711 posts in 2105 days


#19 posted 1658 days ago

If the styles are sticking out long after the doors were finished it’s most likely that the humidity decreased significantly causing the rails to shrink in width.

You missed the point entirely about the styles being long by a few thousanths at glue up and it has nothing to do with your background….and I’m not explaining it again. bye.

View ToddTurner's profile

ToddTurner

144 posts in 1958 days


#20 posted 1658 days ago

mics_54 please do not respond to any of my topics-and im not explaining THAT again either-BYE

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1703 days


#21 posted 1658 days ago

Todd -
Yeah, you’re gonna need to lose the machinest thinking. Wood is much more “loosey-goosey” than metal and you’ll make yourself crazy trying to treat it the same way. – lol

The severe weather you mentioned is probably the culprit. Temperature & humidity can play havoc with wood joints and sometimes it isn’t seasonal. Cabinets near stoves, coffee pots, crock pots, etc often take a beating from the heat & moisture rising from them. I have a kitchen upper cabinet that needs “touched up” every year or so because it’s above the coffee maker. Since I ain’t giving up my morning coffee, I have to do a little more maintenance on my cabs.

On your next doors, try spreading a thinner coat of glue on all mating surfaces. Your method probably squeezes some glue into the rest of the joint, but I doubt if it’s consistent or even. Full coverage of your glue should help reduce the movement issues.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

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