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View Billp's profile

Is there anywhere on this sight where you can get drawings of projects?

by Billp
posted 02-10-2007 04:28 PM


28 replies so far

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#1 posted 02-10-2007 04:35 PM

Sure Bill.
Let me run down to you my process. I see a picture of something i like. Then I figure out in my head what I want it to look like. Then I scribble onto paper what size i need it to be.

Now that I’ve answered that generally, my suggestion for you is:
1) Find what you like or want to build,
2) send the Lumberjock who made it a message asking for dimensions.

Most of the Jocks love to help. I, for one, will be glad to assist you in any way I can.

View Dusty's profile

Dusty

785 posts in 2812 days


#2 posted 02-10-2007 04:55 PM

Bill,

There are many free plans available on the net and from many of the woodworking mags., and publications. I agree with Obi most wood workers are glad to share or help. I find that many times there are mistakes or ways so make a project better or simpler and they are ( I am at least) willing to share what I learned.

Dusty

-- Dusty

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#3 posted 02-10-2007 05:47 PM

Dusty, I’ve gone one step further. I got free plans from Bob’s Plans, Plansnow, Knotty Plans, and if they were in a pdf format, I saved them and loaded them to my website. I have no qualms about taking something I got for free from the internet or anywhere else and posting it. I’ve even taken plans from magazines, and turned them into pdf files so I could give them to others.

I’ll probably hear some copyright speech, but if i got my hands on it, then it’s mine to freely give away, and if there was somebody else’s signature on it, then I left it so that the right author woulld get the credit.

View Dusty's profile

Dusty

785 posts in 2812 days


#4 posted 02-10-2007 06:12 PM

I agree, most are free domain if no copyright is listed, I don”t see a problem. The big worry as you know – is if you take credit or profit from someone elses work. Most of these plans there is no one to go back to even request permission from to use them. . If i use a plan from a wood mag, I am very very careful to credit them and more times than not I find a lot of mistakes and a lot eaiser ways to do something. I do e-mail them and let them know what I found to be wrong.
I can’t tell you how many hours when I first started wood working that I was tryiing to build something to there mesurement’s and specs – only to find it wouldn’t work. Worse yet – I was so sure they were right and I wasn’t doing it right or seeing something that I should of andit almost drove me crazy.

Now, its just a expecation that there will be mistakes and better ways to do something that matches my skills and tools that I have.

So many of those plans I find also are adopted to what ever tool they are selling in that publication at the time.

I found it made me a better wood worker to try other methods and various ways to construct.

I now question everything.

Dusty

-- Dusty

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#5 posted 02-10-2007 06:33 PM

And I’m a man … Directions? I don’t need no stinking directions. I read all the manuals with all of my power tools, but nothing like live and learn. Which is probably why every one of my “First Attempts” is flawed. I’ll do it my way and learn the hard way, and if I were to go back and read the instructions they’d probably show me the right way, but I love the slogan “I can fix it”. Awww, the Learning Curve

View Dick, & Barb Cain's profile

Dick, & Barb Cain

8693 posts in 2955 days


#6 posted 02-10-2007 07:19 PM

I recently purchased a CD with plans from here , this is their list of free plans that may help you.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

View Mark A. DeCou's profile

Mark A. DeCou

1992 posts in 3061 days


#7 posted 02-10-2007 10:40 PM

watch the small print on any plan. Even the plans you buy have a copywrite that will limit the number of copies that you can make from the plan. I don’t think I have seen a purchased set of plans that would allow someone to buy it, and build multiple copies for sale. All of the plans I have seen will allow private use only.

I just saw another ad in the issue of Fine Woodworking I received today for a Maloof Rocking chair school in California. No mention of Mr. Maloof as the designer of the chair, just someone making money teaching copies of his work. It is a crazy world.

BillP: my suggestion if you see a project you want to try and build, contact the lumberjock that posted the project and figure out how to proceed. Some will tell you where they bought their plans, some will draw something up for you, others will decline, but you can always start by asking and see where it goes. I have quite a few things I don’t post as projects, as I am not ready to have them copied, and I am sure I am not alone.

take care,

-- Mark DeCou - American Contemporary Craft Artisan - www.decoustudio.com

View john's profile

john

2293 posts in 3037 days


#8 posted 02-11-2007 08:38 PM

This is a very interesting topic.

My son and i just completed a plan for one of my extreme birdhouses.
He is listing it on EBay today.
For all you experts who sell their work or patterns WHERE is the best place to sell such things ? Other then EBay

-- John in Belgrave (Website) http://www.extremebirdhouse.com , http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=112698715866

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

18615 posts in 2817 days


#9 posted 02-12-2007 01:04 AM

One of the books that I recently bought allows me to make 3 copies.. 3, that’s it. and then the book is worthless (as a source of patterns)

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (https://www.facebook.com/DebbiePribeleENJOConsultant)

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#10 posted 02-12-2007 05:48 AM

Allows you to make three copies? How does it know how many copies you make? How does it know who you send it to?

I take what I can get when I can get it, and I send it to whoever I want. I don’t call the people up and say “excuse me Mr. Magazine Guy, I just copied your plan and sent it to my Lumberjock buddy in … Minnesota, and he’s going to send it to Australia. Does that count as three copies?”

Like I said … If it’s on the internet, take it. It’s free.

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

18615 posts in 2817 days


#11 posted 02-12-2007 02:49 PM

I am a firm believer in copyright—if someone is using a format to share their craft while earning an income from it, then who am I to steal from them.

Now, on the other hand, I am seeing, more and more, (as I have mentioned before) a trend towards “open source” where the goal is to share information and vision and ideas without claiming ownership.

So, while I support copyright, I am also searching for the “copyright free” options. I think it is the way of the future.

(and re: copyright, once you write it/draw it/ speak it.. the idea is yours. Being on the internet does not change the copyright rules.)
There are lots of FREE things out there. You just have to do a little searching. Or look at an idea and change it to be your own. We have a lot of creative people in here; I’m sure no one would have troubles with adapting an idea to make it their own.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (https://www.facebook.com/DebbiePribeleENJOConsultant)

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#12 posted 02-12-2007 03:17 PM

I was given a calender from years gone by with the pictures all being paintings by a certain artist. With the selling of the Calender the Artist was paid his royalties. It was then given to me, and made picture frames and put the pictures from the calender in the frames and sold them. If I buy an item, and then dcide to sell it later I have that right. If I buy a painting and then decide to show a friend what the picture looks like I have that right. If I take a picture of a painting and then decide to send the picture to a friend to show them what it looks like, I have that right. It’s only when I start selling copies that I MIGHT start to infringe on somebody’s copyright.

Not only am I a Business Administration Major I have a year of Business Law. When a government makes rules, and then amendments to those rules and exceptions to those rules, and I find them, then I have the right to apply them.

I’m not talking about selling copyrighted material, I’M TALKING ABOUT GIVING AWAY SOMETHING I HAVE EITHER PAID FOR OR AQUIRED FREE.

And building plans are not usually copyrighted because if you cannot copyright a Dovetail joint, a dado, a mortise and tenon, then how are you going to copyright a building plan? If that was the case then somebody would have copyrighted the “Stick framing” proceedure used today in the manufacturing of the modern home in which we live.

View Ethan Sincox's profile

Ethan Sincox

765 posts in 2830 days


#13 posted 02-12-2007 03:49 PM

I’m afraid, Michael, that you will get very few followers on your “if it’s on the internet, it’s free” campaign.

Like Mark, that attitude is one of the reasons why I’ve posted just a few of my projects and probably why there are some projects I’ll never post.

I’d be more than glad to discuss methods of work, like what kind of joinery I used or how I finished a piece, but I don’t think I’d ever give a step-by-step process of how I constructed something from beginning to end with every dimension and measurement.

Most things I’ve made have come from my own head; I either don’t draw up the plans to be that detailed or I’ve put a lot of time and effort into the proportions and dimensions and I wouldn’t feel right just giving all of that time and effort away. And personally, I think it’s much more interesting to work out problems on my own and build something starting from nothing – I’d hate to take that challenge away from a fellow woodworker!

I think I’ve said this before on a forum topic or blog, but if I do purchase plans or use plans from a magazine or website, I’ll use them specifically to figure out how what kind of joinery was used in a certain situation or how much of a reveal was used. I don’t think I’ve ever followed a plan from beginning to end.

-- Ethan, http://thekiltedwoodworker.com

View Dick, & Barb Cain's profile

Dick, & Barb Cain

8693 posts in 2955 days


#14 posted 02-12-2007 05:30 PM

I think woodcarvers are the biggest copy cats of all. One example is if you google wood spirits images, you’ll get 2200 images of wood spirits, & that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There isn’t much deviation to their look. I carved a few wind spirits when I first started, but I moved on to other things. When I carve I don’t care to be repetitive. Some carvers make a living just carving wood spirits.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#15 posted 02-12-2007 05:39 PM

Well Ethan, So far there a millions that download stuff for free. It cannot be stopped. Now for your not posting some items, that’s up to you. All that means is that some of your best work will probably never be seen.

I’ve heard it said that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. I don’t care if everyone makes a million things just like mine, I can only sell it once.

Bill Gates “pimped” out his Operating system in the early days and many people copied it and now it is the largest selling Operating System in the world. Steve Jobs clung tightly to his which is why he came in second in a field of ….2.

I’m using this forum to exchanges ideas, techniques, tricks of the trade, whatever. If nobody sees my work nobody knows what I can do. If nobody sees your work, how do you expect the concumer outside of Missouri to see it.

Pro 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish:

View Dick, & Barb Cain's profile

Dick, & Barb Cain

8693 posts in 2955 days


#16 posted 02-12-2007 06:36 PM

Right on Obi,
It would be flattering for me to see my creations copied, but I wouldn’t mind if they mentioned where it came from. After all I’m not wealthy, & don’t plan on being wealthy, I just like being happy, & healthy. Bill Gates, & the rest can have it.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#17 posted 02-12-2007 06:45 PM

Dick, if I ever end up making something that i got the idea from you, you’ll be in the first line.

I’m not trying to rob anyone of the credit due them, and I’m not trying to take the credit for something that someone else did. The only thing that I’ve designed myself without looking at someone else’s for the idea was my breadbox. Oh, and I designed the pedestal for the checker board. But I’m sure I wasn’t the first one to ever do it like that.

I got the idea of the pulpit from a picture that my brother-in-law showed me.

The table was a design that I saw that belonged to my brother-in-law and he got it from his mother.

And you’re right about woodworkers being the biggest copycats. Most (NOT ALL) starts from an idea, a picture, a need.

View Dick, & Barb Cain's profile

Dick, & Barb Cain

8693 posts in 2955 days


#18 posted 02-12-2007 06:55 PM

I had a friend who had an invention, and applied for a patent search. The patent office sent back about 8 similar inventions. Patents don’t do you a bit of good unless you can market it. The guy with the best marketing plan always wins.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

View Don's profile

Don

2599 posts in 2833 days


#19 posted 02-12-2007 11:05 PM

This is a very interesting discussion.

I think I come down on the side of open source, because the reality is, you cannot protect yourself from people copying good ideas or designs.

I once worked for a company that spent a fortune registering and protecting patens to protect its innovations. They had a fairly large legal department with a substantial budget and sometimes spent years before the courts trying to protect themselves against companies that ripped-off their designs. The interesting thing is, this company doesn’t exist today. Rather than place their energies and finances in developing new break-through products, they attempted to protect what they had done in the past. The market simply moved on by whilst they were looking back.

A woodworker is a piece-worker. He can only produce what he can produce, and only sell what he can produce. It seems to me pointless to copyright a design. What does the original artist lose if someone else, somewhere else, copies his design and sells it. It can’t correctly be argued that he loses the income from that sale – he wouldn’t have made that sale nor had that income. Protectionism simply doesn’t work. It stifles the creative juices, and causes us to be introspective rather than seek new design horizons.

Take the Sam Maloof rocking chair. There are hundreds of woodworkers that have made imitations of his chair (most of them poor). Have they detracted from his reputation, or his income? No, I think the opposite. And can those who make chairs that strongly borrow from his design elements sell their production for anything close to the price of a Maloof Rocker – probably not. The artistry is in the man as much as in his designs. A Maloof chair is a Maloof chair only when Maloof makes them. People are buying him as much as the chair.

How do I even know about Sam Maloof. He writes books, makes videos, and demonstrates how he makes the chairs, shows photos of his chairs and lectures about them. Does this sound like the acts of someone concerned about others copying him? No – he long ago learned the importance of publicity. He learned that the more people that associate a design with him, the more the value of his production increases regardless whether there are people in Australia selling similar rockers for $15,000 a copy. And isn’t it strange? When I speak to the shop keeper selling these chairs, he refers to them as Maloof-style chairs. Is Sam being ripped-off? No, he’s being venerated. He’s becoming even more famous, and the value of his own work is increasing.

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://dpb-photography.me/

View Ethan Sincox's profile

Ethan Sincox

765 posts in 2830 days


#20 posted 02-12-2007 11:42 PM

You certainly bring interesting light to the discussion, Don.

You have to understand where I’m coming from. I’ve had photography I’d posted in digital format stolen and used by someone for monetary gain. I was actually able to catch her at it and a Cease and Desist letter from a college friend of mine (a copyright lawyer) was necessary in order to get this person to remove the images from her website. Even to this day I have a hard time believing she did this, as she herself is an artist.

So that’s left quite a sour taste in my mouth, if you can imagine.

I wonder if woodworking should be an equal comparison to other art forms in regards to copyright and copyright protection.

In regards to woodworking, I see books by such people as Douglas Stowe who make a point of indicating their copyrights on all of the projects in their books and I see copyright notices on plans I’ve purchased or examined that indicate they are for personal use only.

On the other hand… I’m not sure exactly what their copyright is on. Are they copyrighting that specific design with those exact dimensions and wood species and that exact inlay design? Or are they copyrighting the idea of that style of woodworking (e.g. a box with a sliding dovetail lid)?

The digital work I had stolen was most certainly mine because I took the picture and copyright laws are very clear on that point. But what if someone were to stand in the very same spot and capture the same image? I certainly have no rights over such an action. Does it relate to woodworking in the same way? Is the copyright in a woodworking book more on the printing in the book (i.e. the publication itself) than the ideas in the book?

There is a part of me (the same part of me offended by the previously-stolen image) opposed to posting works for fear of a similar theft. And then there is another part of me that thinks, “if you’re going to copy my work, then fine – let’s see if you can make it as well as me.” It brings out this odd competitive side in me…

I must admit, at this point I have several levels of confusion…

-- Ethan, http://thekiltedwoodworker.com

View jockmike2's profile

jockmike2

10635 posts in 2902 days


#21 posted 02-12-2007 11:55 PM

Try this http://www.woodworkshop.com/twc/
this site used to be called the woodchuck canuck.com but it has changed and now has plans it charges for. But, it still has a large selection of plans. How about a Viking Chair. mike

-- (You just have to please the man in the Mirror) Mike from Michigan -

View Don's profile

Don

2599 posts in 2833 days


#22 posted 02-13-2007 12:15 AM

OK, here’s one.

Is showing this image on this site a violation of someone’s copyright?

I don’t think so. As a matter of fact, the image is located on the site from which I copied the link. It’s not on the LumberJocks server, or my server but on the original site. I haven’t stolen anything – just provided a link to the site where it’s located.

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://dpb-photography.me/

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#23 posted 02-13-2007 02:59 AM

This is very much like me painting the Mona Lisa (were she still alive) from the same view as the original. I see a box, a dresser, a set of kitchen cabinets, whatever. And I take the same kind of wood, use the same color and type of stain and the same finish. Woodworkers have been doing it since the creation of the first chair.

Og, the caveman, made a chair and since it looked to be more comforable than the log that Zog was sitting on Zog made one too.

What’s the big deal? The “Mine, Mine,Mine” mentality is basic selfishness. This IS NOT like stealing your image, your music/lyrics, or your writings. This is looking at a pice of your art and trying to see if you can duplicate it.

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

18615 posts in 2817 days


#24 posted 02-13-2007 03:10 AM

nothing wrong with “trying to duplicate something”. I think that is what Ethan talked about earlier—making it your own, just as you would change the wording of something so that you are not plagarizing (sp??).

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (https://www.facebook.com/DebbiePribeleENJOConsultant)

View scottb's profile

scottb

3648 posts in 2983 days


#25 posted 02-13-2007 03:29 AM

There is the copyleft movement, essentially, this is free to use, just give credit where credit is due.

Looking back through old issues of Wood, someone wrote in asking if they could make one of the projects for sale. The editor replied that they could indeed, if the project was created by a staffer, but please limit yourself to 20. Fine for a craft fair, but not fine for opening up a business. If the project was submitted by a reader, then you had to contact him.

I’d read in a turning magazine that woodturners were also copying too much, but as was previously stated, how can you copyright a shape? Last I knew bowls weren’t the domaign of one artist, goblets another…. so what if a turned vessel looks like egyptian pottery in silhouette.

Yes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but that’s imitation or creative manipulation, not theft or piracy. Making something newer or better… nothing wrong with that.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- http://blanchardcreative.etsy.com -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

View Obi's profile

Obi

2213 posts in 2893 days


#26 posted 02-13-2007 04:13 AM

People have been copying French Provincial, or Queen Anne style or blah, blah, King edward, Og the Caveman, And so on and so on … Now that we’ve just about run this topic into the dirt, I have some stuff i wanna show you.

View Don's profile

Don

2599 posts in 2833 days


#27 posted 02-14-2007 06:38 AM

Here’s an interesting development on the copyright issue. I think the argument that it’s on the Net may not hold water before a court of law.

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://dpb-photography.me/

View Billp's profile

Billp

784 posts in 2856 days


#28 posted 02-14-2007 06:57 AM

I really appreciate all of the imput. It gets you thinking. I would never want to take credit for someone’s ideas. Iam just trying to learn,and I all ready have from books and magazines just like most of my life it comes a little bit at a time. I am truely in awe of some of the work I see in the Gallary.

-- Billp

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