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post /removal

by bill merritt
posted 1662 days ago


25 replies so far

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1702 days


#1 posted 1662 days ago

Bill -
Get a good contractor (and maybe a structural engineer) to help you with this.

That column is carrying structural loads that must be identified so a new support system can be designed and built to carry those loads after that column is removed. It’s almost certainly do-able, but it needs to be done correctly.

Most of the sagging structure problems I’ve seen were the result of somebody with no understanding of structural engineering whacking out structural members. Sometimes they get lucky, but more often the building shifts or sags. In rare cases, they bring the building down.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View SnowyRiver's profile

SnowyRiver

51451 posts in 2114 days


#2 posted 1662 days ago

I agree with Sawkerf. It pays to get the right scoop on whats needed. Is this in your house, or is it a garage? It can be disasterous to remove a support structure and not replace it with one that’s heavy enough since even the slightest sag can affect not only the integrety of the building, but your floors and door and window operation among other things.

-- Wayne - Plymouth MN

View miles125's profile

miles125

2179 posts in 2639 days


#3 posted 1662 days ago

I’d like to see you solve it by building what looks like a suspension bridge assembly on the shop roof :)

-- "The way to make a small fortune in woodworking- start with a large one"

View a1Jim's profile (online now)

a1Jim

112016 posts in 2211 days


#4 posted 1662 days ago

I am a contractor and I would never suggest remove a support with out looking at it in person and taking under consideration the load and spans involved.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View a1Jim's profile (online now)

a1Jim

112016 posts in 2211 days


#5 posted 1662 days ago

I am a contractor and I would never suggest removing a support with out looking at it in person and taking under consideration the load and spans involved.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View unisaw2's profile

unisaw2

179 posts in 1669 days


#6 posted 1662 days ago

I agree with all above, get a good contractor or structural engineer to look at it.

-- JJ

View dryhter's profile

dryhter

74 posts in 2237 days


#7 posted 1661 days ago

’’just wondering what type beam would I need to put in to take its place?’‘ Listen to what others have said get the advice of an architect or structural engineer

But you are just wondering,and you need to know something about what you are going to be asking about. Your post is already supporting a beam, and only by calculating the various loads and stress upon this beam can any changes be made. But in the simplest scenario, after calculations have been made, a steel beam will be selected and installed. A steel beam is designated by widthXheightXLbs. per foot. The Lbs.per foot =/or relates to the thickness of the webs making up the beam (ie. 1/4 in., 3/IN., 1/2in., etc,etc,). The strength (not sagging)of the beams comes from it’s height, but in most cases a heavier web can make up for less height(sometimes).

Next comes the install, beams are heavy, keep that in mind, if you are lucky enough to have the headroom you might be able just to install the new beam under the old beam, but probably not, so you will have to take out the old beam first. Temporary walls will need to be built, about two feet out along each side of the beam to support the load of the beam being removed, and check to see if additional temp. support walls are to be built on other floors above this temp. wall. Now you can cut out the mid-span support(lolly column) and start cutting out the end supports. If the existing beam is wood just cut it up into pieces, taking care not to destroy the joists (cut the nails don’t even try to pull them,the old dry wood will splinter).

If you are able, cut a hole in the side of the building, at the bottom as close to the floor as possible, and slide the beam in to place underneath where the old beam was. If you can’t do this then you have to get the beam into place preceding building of the temp. walls. I believe the beam must bear a minimum of 1 3/4 in.(you should check on that),( I usually have the beam cut 11/2in. smaller than what the actual measurement was). Nail a plate(2X materialX the size of the flange of the beam) across the underside of the joists where the beam will finally rest. Get the beam into the pocket where the beam supports will be, now all you have to do is somehow get the beam lifted up into place and temporarily supported (securely temporarily supported), you still need to get the beam into perfect place and jacked up tight to the plate that was installed on the joists.

Once the beam is in place and is jacked up into place and taking weight up off the temporary walls, cut 2X supports for the beam support pockets,fill as required so that the supports end at the beam flange edge. Fill behind the beam and run the next supports on each side of the beam up to the plate and then in-fill to the next stud on each side (supposedly to keep the beam from tipping).

Don’t be surprised if the new beam does not jack up tight when in place. almost all beams settle or sag over time , especially wood. Use metal shims(that can be purchased where ever the beam is bought, of course you don’t know how many you will need), in a pinch you can use hardwood end grain shims cut to fit, or just jack that beam into place where you want it and deal with the cracked drywall and disturbed door openings.

Slowly remove the jacks and then remove the temp. walls should take a day, good luck!

-- Chips and Shavings/ see you at WWW.underconstructionlive.com

View Dennisgrosen's profile

Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 1749 days


#8 posted 1661 days ago

that is one of those things you never do unless you are very skilled
get a contractor who has done it a few times before i have seen
some big failer when people try to do it DIY they still pay for a house
that they don´t have

Dennis

View Dennis Fletcher's profile

Dennis Fletcher

455 posts in 1688 days


#9 posted 1661 days ago

I am a contractor and house designer. i do the math to calculate these beams and trust me, what you are looking to put in to replace the post would be very big and heavy. It may require you to add mor support to the exterior walls and may take quite a lot of headroom.

If it is a garage, it is often easier and cheaper to have a company design and build trusses that require no beam and do a rehab, ripping off the old roof and putting on a new one.

I’m not joking about it possibly being cheaper, either.

-- http://www.ahomespecialist.net, Making design and application one. †

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1702 days


#10 posted 1661 days ago

Dennis -

I’m a contractor too, and a licensed PE and one very important bit of info Bill left out was where this post is. I had visions of a basement under a two story house, but it could be a garage or a shed. Whatever he has, he definitely needs some professional input.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View Dennis Fletcher's profile

Dennis Fletcher

455 posts in 1688 days


#11 posted 1661 days ago

Sawkerf,

Your right, I just assumed, based on where I see most shops. Wow, how much worse if it were your scenario.

I have been on the receiving end of a roof collapse, not fun. Fortunately, I was in a spot that was protected, talk about scared out of my, well, you can just guess.

Removing a post and making a beam larger is dangerous, even for a PE. I’m sure Sawkerf would agree.

Why don’t you look at exchanging the single post for 2 posts, giving you room, but causing the load to be split.

Again, though, hire someone qualified to run the numbers. A PE is the only one I would suggest. Let them crunch the numbers and let a contractor do the work.

-- http://www.ahomespecialist.net, Making design and application one. †

View Dennisgrosen's profile

Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 1749 days


#12 posted 1661 days ago

Sawkerf
that was thenearly the same visons I had maybee my shop is inmy basement
and I have a house in two plans
but I have seen the result of those things if it has not being done the right way
and you are right it cuold even be a little shed

View Enthalpy's profile

Enthalpy

44 posts in 1675 days


#13 posted 1661 days ago

Work around the post..it’s cheaper (DBeener that’s 2 words)

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1702 days


#14 posted 1660 days ago

Well, glivingston, I am offended by your statement. Yes, some contractors will cut corners, but your statement paints all of us with the same brush. I’m sorry you’ve had bad luck with your contractors, but some of us (I like to think most of us) try our best to do the job in an ethical and professional manner.

So far, the posts to this thread have unanimously urged Bill to get professional help with his problem. Are you suggesting that we’re all cutting corners to make a buck??

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View dryhter's profile

dryhter

74 posts in 2237 days


#15 posted 1660 days ago

GEEEEEEEEEEESH, glivingston I agree with Sawkerf, If you got scammed at some point, then shame on you. You did not do your due diligence in hiring a reputable contractor,all you need to do is ask for references, current and several years old. Call those references.

I have been in business for a long time and big job or small I strive for customer satisfaction. Their referral might possibly be my next job and yes it is all about making a buck. In thirty years of business I have had to leave 5-6 customers unHappy. I figure thats not a bad average. It is always about the money, my unhappy customers mostly fell into one of two groups, those with great expectations / little pocketbooks and those that could do it better themselves / but don’t have the time. And after each one of those unHappy customer experiences I would curse myself for taking the job in the first place because usually I had a gut feeling to begin with. Now when I get that feeling I make my apologies and regretfully(yea, right) I can’t do your project.

I have often thought there should be an Angie’s List for contractors to check on customers.

-- Chips and Shavings/ see you at WWW.underconstructionlive.com

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1702 days


#16 posted 1660 days ago

dryhter -
On a few of the occasions where I’ve listened to someone go into their rant about sleazy contractors, I knew the contractors involved. In one case, I agreed (silently) with the customer, but the rest had me baffled until I talked to the GC. As Paul Harvey used to say…........”Now, the REST of the story”. – lol

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View GFYS's profile

GFYS

711 posts in 2105 days


#17 posted 1660 days ago

dryhter…my gut starts talking as soon as some knucklehead starts telling me how he always has trouble with contractors.

View Dennisgrosen's profile

Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 1749 days


#18 posted 1660 days ago

I´m a big DIY man myself and those times when I feel this is over my head I have used
contractors (18-20 times) and there has been a few of those that I will not hire again not so much becourse
of what they have done they were realy skilled but the way they have estimated what the cost was
and the bill for the work end up 2-3 times more than they have promiced
don´t say that I shuold have got 2-4 different prizes of the work
I do that every time and I do not go for the cheepest if I can see there most be something wrong with
the calculation
and I do try to have some recomadation first before I hire anybody to do a job for me
sorry for my english but I do hope my point come thrugh

Dennis

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1702 days


#19 posted 1660 days ago

Dennis -
This is taking this thread in a new direction, but I would like to point out that when a bill comes in that’s well over the bid price, there’s almost always fault on both sides.

A contractor who lets his job run well beyond the bid price isn’t doing his job right. It’s either out of control, or he’s found (and done) work that wasn’t in the original work scope. He should be communicating with you about “extra” work as he discovers it, and giving you the opportunity to agree to (and pay for) the extra work before he proceeds.

You, however, need to have a clear picture of what work will be done for the quoted price, and make sure your contractor knows that no “extra” work will be paid for unless you’ve given prior approval. Another thing that often falls into this is when the customer asks one of the contractors employees to do something. All to often, the employee will do it and tell the boss after it’s done. Those things need to go thru the contractor so he can decide if it’s within the existing job scope or is extra.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View dryhter's profile

dryhter

74 posts in 2237 days


#20 posted 1660 days ago

Over the years I have thought a lot about the dynamics of this relationship, contractor/homeowner, and find it no different then any of the many kinds of marriages you can imagine. A great way to study human nature and to learn about your own character if honest. My wife says that I am to judgmental sometimes, and I can not disagree. I evaluate these judgments and keep tabs of them. It is part of the job,contractor, carpenter, cabinetmaker, have to make many decisions quickly and accurately,if they want to stay in business.

I have learned that I will fight tenaciously during negotiations for every last dollar that I think I might be on the table and yet I will give away a weeks worth of work if I feel appreciated or the homeowner is in need. Pretty sure it has a lot to do with my ego, but then again I don’t think I have yet to meet a good carpenter that did not have a good size ego and pride to go along with it.

Dennis
You can get all the pricing (Bids ) you want , but unless you get references and call and check them, you won’t know about the character of the people you are hiring.

( basement beam install)!

-- Chips and Shavings/ see you at WWW.underconstructionlive.com

View Dennisgrosen's profile

Dennisgrosen

10850 posts in 1749 days


#21 posted 1660 days ago

dryhter and Sawkerf
I´m sorry it´s turned aut the wrong way becourse I´m not disagree with you at all
and just for the record all work that I want to hire aut is writen down on paper an no
exstra´s has been paid for but there has been a few rotten eggs here in Denmark the last
5-10 years becourse every ones have wanted to build/remodeled there houses and the ekonomic
was good
now let´s us come back to the right track and help bill merritt the best way we can
if he still is around :—))

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1702 days


#22 posted 1660 days ago

You got it Dennis. I wasn’t trying to argue with you. We have plenty of “bad apples” here in the states, and it can be a real struggle to overcome the bad feelings they often leave with their customers.

Speaking of Bill, has he even been back to this thread? I hope we didn’t scare him away. – lol

YO BILL!! TALK TO US, MAN.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View bill merritt's profile

bill merritt

203 posts in 1923 days


#23 posted 1660 days ago

I am surprised and grateful at the response,thanks everybody. Now I really have a lot to think about. Want to thank eveyone again and if I do try to move that post I will get expert advise first.

-- Bill Merritt -Augusta Ga. woodworker

View pete57's profile

pete57

134 posts in 2044 days


#24 posted 1660 days ago

I agree that someone should look at it first. When I have done this kind of work in the past I gave the owner a plan of what was going to happen. Remember that you are messing with a post that is carring a load. I always build a temp wall to hold the load and then put the beam in place. The two post that someone mentioned is a good idea, but make sure that the concrete is thick enough to hold the load. There is a footing or thickened slab under the post that is there next. Generally lolly columns are columns that stand against a wall, block, concrete, brick wals and hold up a gerter beam, what yo have is just a stand alone column. I would get a pro in there to give you a desing and you can do it or hire someone to do it. Safety First!!

-- Humble Wood Servant

View bill merritt's profile

bill merritt

203 posts in 1923 days


#25 posted 1659 days ago

Sorry for your trouble with the trades people I have had a little also, but most are just trying to make a living. And when we worked together got things done,hope thats the case if ever I do move that post from center of basement.I’ll leave it to experts on how it is to be done. And consentrate on getting my band saw to tract right,and other important shop problems that I can manage. Want to thank all who helped me make this decision—only on this site could I find people who know and care enough to help, thanks.

-- Bill Merritt -Augusta Ga. woodworker

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