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View BOB67CAM's profile

joint advice

by BOB67CAM
posted 1637 days ago


33 replies so far

View patron's profile

patron

12973 posts in 1944 days


#1 posted 1637 days ago

did i miss something here ?

what is the question again ?
are the wrinkles in the plastic part of the puzzle ?
where is the joint ?
why is your shoe in the picture ?
i think you need to shrink your pics ,
the part you want us to look at is maybe missing ?

i guess my main question is , HUH ?

-- david - only thru kindness can this world be whole . If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle

View Waldschrat's profile

Waldschrat

505 posts in 2038 days


#2 posted 1637 days ago

I think I know what you mean, or what your asking but it all depends on what you are armed with in the shop in the area of joining technology… do you have a biscuit joiner, do you have drill press, mortise machine, or perhaps a jig for drilling dowel joints with a drill?

I guess what I would do if you are looking at doing more wood work in the future and do not already have one is use a biscuit joiner, they are fast and relatively economical. Not to mention one has a little room to move back and fourth if not exactly joined perfectly… with dowels its not so easy, or forgiving, but they are just as good… I am more of the biscuit fan than a dowel fan. Thats what I would go with.

Drilling dowels on a bevel/mitre like that is not that easy, but you could try that and just joint it with dowels.

Those are the easiest options. I do not think that using glue alone will hold all that well. or not as well as it could.

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

View Peter Oxley's profile

Peter Oxley

1426 posts in 2477 days


#3 posted 1637 days ago

Biscuits into the end of a miter can be tricky – they will come out the front of your piece if you aren’t really careful. Plus, they would have to be very close to the inside edge of your corner piece which would weaken the joint on that side. In fact, you’ll have that problem with almost anything you try to insert into the joint at this point – dowels, floating tenon, etc. Pocket screws would be tricky, too, but not impossible.

I think I’d add corner blocks. They are easy to make and install, they’re strong, they don’t require special tools, and they would help hold your sides square to each other.

If I’m not explaining clearly, let me know and I’ll do a quick drawing to show what I mean.

-- http://www.peteroxley.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

View Andrew's profile

Andrew

709 posts in 1801 days


#4 posted 1637 days ago

If you do go with biscuits, let the glue dry (they say 24 hrs) 48 hrs to be safe. The moisture in the glue causes the biscuit to swell creating a bump in the peice, then the glue dries and the bump disapears. If you sand or machine while the bump is there, then when it dries you will have an indentation at the biscuit joint. The only hard part is waiting, 2 days.

-- Even a broken clock is right twice a day, unless, it moves at half speed like ....-As the Saw Turns

View CharlieM1958's profile

CharlieM1958

15667 posts in 2821 days


#5 posted 1637 days ago

To me, biscuits look like the best option. I realize this may be a bit of an initial investment, but you will find it a very useful tool on future projects. I would place the biscuits approximately where I indicated in the photo, and I don’t think there would be much problem with possible cut-through or telegraphing.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

View Joshua Howe's profile

Joshua Howe

71 posts in 2077 days


#6 posted 1637 days ago

Hey Man,
Don’t over think it you have already cut to much off for standard dovetail or tenon joint so that eliminates a lot of ideals so one way of looking at it as you don’t have to think about those. So your ops are: loose tenon, dowel, biscuit(had one for breakfast), or pocket hole. If the top on this table is solid use pocket hole screws to fasten and glue taking this is a table not real sure on the “project”. loose tenon is probably the hardest but guess what no one will be able to see how sloppy your holes are anyway dowels are easy don’t let them fool you just drill the holes in the cherry first because thats ur angle buy some dowels and dowel thing abobs with the metal point that go in the hole. before drilling make sure everything is the same size drill straight hehehe! so if your looking at the angle the long end or the end on the out side drill so the dowel is at the farthest from here. basicly imagine dowel coming straight out of puduka int angle cherry you wont to get as much depth into cherry so not the long outside point but the short inside part of the angle I could draw you a pic. so okay dowel didnt line up right no prob its all hidden either redrill wobble the hole or over size the hole so now hole is to big for dowel epoxy dowel in hole then glue her together simple just remember not to focus on dumb things like what a joint looks like when you cant see it. Joint ar meant to add strength. loosen tenon pretty much the same way but two holes and a little chisel work same concept though. good luck have fun and dont worry about the joint just smoke it.HEHE! I kid!

-- Wood,clay,metal, and stone are all just materials, until an artist's hand touches them.--TreeFormDesign

View richgreer's profile

richgreer

4522 posts in 1677 days


#7 posted 1637 days ago

Based on what I see, I agree with several fellow LJs on using biscuits. However, I will serve up another alternative that would be even easier (but less elegant} – pocket holes. You would have to convert your miter joint to a butt joint but pocket holes (with the right screws) are very strong and they are very easy to do. I think they are great for newbs. The Kreg jig is the best and the Kreg screws are the best. However, there are cheaper jigs available. Even if you use a cheaper non-Kreg jig, I would still recommend Kreg screws (fine grain for hardwoods, course grain for soft woods).

If the pocket holes will be visible, you can fill in the holes with plugs. Once they are glued in place and sanded down they blend in nicely – but they are still visible.

-- Rich, Cedar Rapids, IA - I'm a woodworker. I don't create beauty, I reveal it.

View Joshua Howe's profile

Joshua Howe

71 posts in 2077 days


#8 posted 1637 days ago

Sorry guy but I really have to argue the biscuit joint it is a strong joint I understand but for the cost and time it takes, I have a porter cable biscuit jointer dustest tool in my shop. It is much easier to hand cut a loose tenon than it is to find the right angle on a biscuit jointer. And a good chisel is a lot cheaper. if it was my project I wood do the loose tenon but maybe I’m crazy. I know this sounds intemadating to a socalled newbie, But how long do you really want to consider yourself a newbie cut 2 pieces of scrap and just try I promise it will be the most satifing cuts you have ever made. I mean really how much time have we spent think and talking about it. drill 4 or 5 holes in a line chisel waste cut square piece of wood glue and if you want to get fancy pants on it the take bandsaw or handsaw and cut slit add a small wedge on each side make sure that your tenon will flex and not split if splits open up the slit for the wedge all you need the wedge to do is spread it out no more than a 1/16th if tenon is cut tight. wait a minute in case we didn’t already know this this is an old school biscuit hehehee! Don’t you love how machines make us forget the basics. Okay here we go I need something to hold to pieces of wood together so I cut slit in each add wood that continues through joint and wedge to form tight fit like my hammer o yeah wait if we had a machine that cuts the slits and then take a piece of wood o and this wood would expanid when i add glue we will call this type of wedged tenon a biscuit because I got the munches. HEHE! It 6 one way 1/2 dozen the other

-- Wood,clay,metal, and stone are all just materials, until an artist's hand touches them.--TreeFormDesign

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#9 posted 1637 days ago

I think your photos are to big to see what your trying to do. Can you reduce them down in size?
If it’s the same photo Charlie has then I would use a spline of loose tenon.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View Joshua Howe's profile

Joshua Howe

71 posts in 2077 days


#10 posted 1637 days ago

just double click the image brings it up in new window and bottom right side of browser is 100% change to 75 or 50% also rich do you think the pocket hole would work if you didn’t use the jig I sometimes do this when I need a steeper angle or even not as much angle. I’m sure the angle has to do with the strength of the joint but I wonder if their is a formula for the degree of angle to strength?

-- Wood,clay,metal, and stone are all just materials, until an artist's hand touches them.--TreeFormDesign

View CharlieM1958's profile

CharlieM1958

15667 posts in 2821 days


#11 posted 1637 days ago

Jim, click on his photos in the post and you can see them in Photobucket easier.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#12 posted 1637 days ago

Thanks Guys

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View SplinterDave's profile

SplinterDave

15 posts in 2295 days


#13 posted 1637 days ago

Jim,

I am not sure if this would work but I might try using splines. Cut a slot in the small block and the angle pieces that join up along a similar line as what is shown in the picture from CharlieM1958. I’m not sure of the sizes of the pieces being joined but let say the block is a 2” square block. If so I’d use 1/4” thick spines about 3/4” deep into each piece. If one surface is exposed the slots would not go all the way through but if there is a top that would cover them I’d make the slot all the way through.

I’m a relatively new wood worker too so take this advise as a consideration and not as something from an expert.

SplinterDave

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#14 posted 1637 days ago

Hey Dave
Splines seems like a strong easy way to go . The sizes your suggesting seems fine as long as your using a strong wood for the splines. I’m not sure what this is your making but some times I just use a different color wood and let the spline show as a design statement. One concern particularly with the small corner block is it can be very dangerous to saw or router a small block like that. I would suggest that you hold it with a small clamp during this operation and of course making sure the clamp won’t come in contact with the blade or router bit.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#15 posted 1637 days ago

dammit, i forgot to add a couple details about this, im sorry about that.
i was thinking splines lately but im not so sure i can pull off the correct angle very well on the 2 other details i forgot to mention is there will be a glass top inset into the wood and the angled wood u see is not really what you see..lol ill grab some pics for explanation and hopefully yall can un-predicament me..lol
heres a pic of what the angles look like

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#16 posted 1637 days ago

Hey Dave
If doing this on your table saw you should be able to tilt the blade to the proper angle practice on some scrape cut to the same angle .

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#17 posted 1637 days ago

well, i guess i should tell you jim, my name is bob..lol not sure where dave came from..lol but anyways the 2 long peices are 40 inches so a mitre cut seems a bit scary to me, and i also have to spline the padouk peices too which i guess is less scary.lol but if im off at all ill be really screwed..lol
i guess what im saying is it took me alot of shaving to finaly get close to a 45, and the cherry has moved a bit on me so stuff it kinda off a lil anyways so maybe im just getting too nervous?..

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#18 posted 1637 days ago

Sorry BOB
If you do a search on tenoning jigs there are some very simple one’s you can make very quickly that can make it more accurately and safely

here’s one
.http://lumberjocks.com/carlosponti/blog/7503

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#19 posted 1637 days ago

well, i guess i should tell you jim, my name is bob..lol not sure where dave came from..lol but anyways the 2 long peices are 40 inches so a mitre cut seems a bit scary to me, and i also have to spline the padouk peices too which i guess is less scary.lol but if im off at all ill be really screwed..lol
i guess what im saying is it took me alot of shaving to finaly get close to a 45, and the cherry has moved a bit on me so stuff it kinda off a lil anyways so maybe im just getting too nervous?..

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#20 posted 1637 days ago

that sounds a bit tuff for my skilless abilitys..lol
ok i could probly figure it out but is there really enuff material for that?, the corner peice is only 3/4 and its 45ed

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#21 posted 1637 days ago

no prob jim ;), is it even possble to do a tenon at 45 degrees?
o and i should mention as far as that goes the cheeseball drill press i have has a hell of wobble to it, so i relly cant do anything good or worthwhile with it, i do however plan to get an upcut router bit 1 of these days fairly soon

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#22 posted 1637 days ago

I guess I missed what this is Bob ? If this is some kind of table you might be able to add an interior support.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#23 posted 1637 days ago

i could maybe insert something however u can see the basic layout, its hopefully going to be a coffee table showing off a guitar under glass with a few extra details i have not yet figured out exacly what to do with the sides on the inside yet, obviously i dont want to see the laminate and such but i havent quite figured out exactly what it will look like inside there yet

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#24 posted 1637 days ago

Ok Bob
The most simple approach is to use dowels if the table saw approach is to scary. I’m not sure about corner blocks will work .do you know what those are? It would have been easier to work this out in the design stage. A hint Remember who you talking to LOL and always work out the joinery before you build.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#25 posted 1637 days ago

lol yep yer right jim and remember i mentioned im a newb?..lol im only about 3 montsh into this woodworking stuff…lol, i ended up getting the padouk to basicly give me a lil more material to deal with for the corners, and im kinda thinking dowels might be the way to go, let me run this by ya quick
im thinking of drilling the holes for the dowels straight thru the padouk which if all goes well give me the right angle using it for the guide to drill the side peices…doe sthis sound doable or completely assinine?
o and before i gforget, thanks for sticking with my dumbass thru this..lol

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#26 posted 1637 days ago

We all start somewhere Bob
It seems like drilling all the way through could cause more problems than help. I forget there name right now (something like dowel markers)but they have markers that you put in the first set of holes and tap the joint together and it marks were the other hole goes. I really don’t care for dowels that much but other then biscuits it seems you options are limited.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#27 posted 1637 days ago

ok yea ive seen em, i actually have a couple that came with something, i think it was a kreg dowel set or something i just bought for the brad point bit and since im a packrat i kept thembut forget about them, so thankx alot!

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

View Dragonsrite's profile

Dragonsrite

136 posts in 2000 days


#28 posted 1637 days ago

I’m no expert, but if I were to make something like this, I’d use splines to reinforce the joints.

Jim: “dowel markers” = dowel centers

-- Dragonsrite, Minnesota

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112001 posts in 2180 days


#29 posted 1637 days ago

thanks Dragonsrite
Maybe you didn’t see the earlier post were we talked about splines.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View Dragonsrite's profile

Dragonsrite

136 posts in 2000 days


#30 posted 1637 days ago

It looks as though I missed a whole screen of posts there somehow. Musta been spinning the mouse wheel too fast.

-- Dragonsrite, Minnesota

View wseand's profile

wseand

2116 posts in 1645 days


#31 posted 1635 days ago

If you make a solid base for the table your corners really shouldn’t take that much weight unless you are putting dumb bells on them and I am assuming no one is going to sit on it. Once the glue is set it is stronger than the wood. If you are really worried about the strength then make it out of some scrap and test it out. Trial and error with scrap is how I do a lot of my projects if i am not quite sure about. I would rather waste 10 bucs of pine instead of all of my project lumber. Just an idea. Otherwise your best bet is the spline or corner block mentioned in previous posts. Remember with gluing, the more surface area you have the better the hold.

-- Bill - "Freedom flies in your heart like an Eagle" Audie Murphy

View Bob Areddy's profile

Bob Areddy

177 posts in 2005 days


#32 posted 1635 days ago

What are the dimensions of this piece? Especially the dimensions of the dark corner block?

-- --Bob http://www.areddy.net/wood

View BOB67CAM's profile

BOB67CAM

269 posts in 1675 days


#33 posted 1635 days ago

the table is 40×24, and its all from 3/4 stock cherry, except the padouk corners and the bits of walnut for accent in the legs, but the actual side peices are basicly 40×5.5, the dark peices are just a darker cherry and i forget the exact demension since they had to match the dado moreso then the size but i think your looking for the length which is about 2.5” long and cover the other peice by 1/4” and if i mess up then i can cut them down a lil bit to get the 45 back but if i go too far then itll start looking mismatched obviously
and as i reread yer quesion, maybe your talking about the padouck corner peices, if thats the case they are 2”x2”x5.5”, or will be when i “exact the down” to where i need them

-- if you dont have it, build it, especially when its a stupid idea

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