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Joining After The Fact

by spaine
posted 10-24-2016 06:15 PM


29 replies so far

View HickWillis's profile

HickWillis

114 posts in 654 days


#1 posted 10-24-2016 07:01 PM

I assume you’re going to stain the face frame the same color as the rest of the cabinet? If so, just use finish nails. The hole is so small you won’t even see it. You could also put a little bit of matching wood putty over the hole if you’re really concerned about it (or a bit of sawdust/glue then stain).

-- -Will

View HokieKen's profile (online now)

HokieKen

4967 posts in 1133 days


#2 posted 10-24-2016 08:06 PM

You could rabbet the face frame and glue it. I’d just glue it with a few finish nails to hold it in place. Actually, now that I look at it, I don’t see any way around having nails in it because there doesn’t appear to be any way to clamp the frame on for glue to set.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View verdesardog's profile

verdesardog

160 posts in 2605 days


#3 posted 10-24-2016 11:12 PM

You could use pocket screws but it might be difficult to hold the jig steady since you can’t clamp it

-- .. heyoka ..

View Chris208's profile

Chris208

239 posts in 2264 days


#4 posted 10-24-2016 11:45 PM

Can you just detach the top and do it right?

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JBrow

1354 posts in 914 days


#5 posted 10-25-2016 01:55 AM

spaine,

An alternative to finish nails through the face frame would be to build the face frame with integrated cleats. The cleats, glued to the backside of the face frame, would set on the sides, lower face of the shelf, and lower side of the top of the cabinet. Screws or brads through the cleats into the sides and top would hold the face frame in place.

I would think that cleats projecting into the cabinet by about ¾” would be sufficient to offer attaching points. If the cleats are thin, perhaps 3/8” the face frame could extend beyond the sides, shelf, and top (to the inside of the cabinet) by as little at ¾”. If the cleats are finished to match the finish inside the cabinet, they would not be very noticeable.

My approach would be to build the face frame ensuring that the stiles and rails overhand the inside of the cabinet by at least ¾”. The face frame could then be held in place and the location if the sides, top, and shelf of the built-in marked on the inside of the face frame. A 3/8” groove could be routed into the backside (inside) of the face frame, using the reference marks, to receive the cleats. The cleats could be pre-drilled for mounting screws (unless brads are used) and glued into the grooves in the face frame. A dry fit to the built in cabinet before gluing the cleats in place would ensure a perfect fit.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2025 posts in 2938 days


#6 posted 10-25-2016 03:46 AM

Like Willis said, just use finish nails. After that, buy a jar of wax close to the color of your wood and one white and one black jar. With these three, you can mix the dark with white to lighten it or black to darken it.

I’ve done this on light wood on bookshelves and, by playing with the mix as I moved down [or up], even I had trouble finding the holes.

If you don’t like a mix for a hole you just filled, just take another stab at it.

When done, toss on your finish of choice.


I assume you re going to stain the face frame the same color as the rest of the cabinet? If so, just use finish nails. The hole is so small you won t even see it. You could also put a little bit of matching wood putty over the hole if you re really concerned about it (or a bit of sawdust/glue then stain).

- HickWillis


View pmayer's profile

pmayer

1028 posts in 3059 days


#7 posted 10-25-2016 01:52 PM

+1 finish nails. Kelly has a good recipe for you to hide the nails. This won’t bother anyone’s serenity.

-- PaulMayer, http://www.vernswoodgoods.com

View Loren's profile

Loren

10373 posts in 3642 days


#8 posted 10-25-2016 04:23 PM

I would nail and fill but I understand why you might
want to try something a little more elegant.

You can drill evenly spaced counterbore holes for
screws and get a tapered plug cutter to make
plugs in the same or contrasting wood. You can
use raised square plugs too for a craftsman-style
look.

Another solution, kind of a pain to do, but invisble,
is mod-eze fasteners.

You can also get metal biscuits with two mating parts
that slide together and hold it tight. There’s also
some plastic variants on this idea available.

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 586 days


#9 posted 10-26-2016 09:35 PM

My vote for blind dowels. Doweling centers from HF for $4 will help you a lot.

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5654 posts in 2807 days


#10 posted 10-26-2016 09:45 PM

If it were before the install, I would’ve used biscuits and glue to attach the face frame.

Now, I would use an 18 gauge brad nailer. Mix Color Putty to match, and fill the holes (after stain and topcoat) Then take a Q-tip and roll a little topcoat over the putty spot. Use the same topcoat as your project (lacquer, poly etc).
Top coating the putty holes keeps them from drying out and lightening in color.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 586 days


#11 posted 10-26-2016 11:21 PM

Cannot believe my eyes. Out of all replies, Carloz excluded, only one is not suggesting to use nails in furniture !!!!
Is this a framing forum ?

View DS's profile

DS

2916 posts in 2415 days


#12 posted 10-26-2016 11:29 PM

Two steps forward one step back – story of my life…

There is no substitute for doing it right. (Notice I didn’t say “the first time”.)

How hard could it be to unattach this from the wall, make it right and then reinstall?

Short of that, Carloz is the man with the dowels!

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

207 posts in 1097 days


#13 posted 10-27-2016 01:20 AM

Make your entire face frame to size. Set it in place with glue. Fasten in place using chair braces on the back (interior) side:
http://www.stanleyhardware.com/type/chair-braces-braces
Small wood blocks would also work the same way. Some or all of the chair braces can be preinstalled to either the face frame or side panels to make installation easier. I think that the addition of biscuits would help hold everything in alignment while installing the chair braces. The braces could be removed after the glue dries; or not.

Another idea:
Build your face frame and cut biscuit slots in both face frame and cabinet. Mark location of biscuit slots in cabinet. Glue biscuits into face frame only and let dry. When dry, glue and install face frame. Drive a small brad through side panel and biscuit where marked to hold the whole assembly together until glue is dry.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

9444 posts in 1480 days


#14 posted 10-27-2016 01:27 AM

No offense. If I wouldn’t call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 586 days


#15 posted 10-27-2016 04:06 PM



No offense. If I wouldn t call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.

- TheFridge


Looks more like arrogance than offence. The cabinet looks nice.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2025 posts in 2938 days


#16 posted 10-27-2016 05:52 PM

I might, also, say it’s not fine furniture for the reason it’s built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved. Generally, the two have to be built completely different ways.

Per a customer’s requests (no amount of explanation and coaxing would change his mind), I built a solid oak, ceiling hung, kitchen cabinet. They like it so much they used it as a buffet, instead.

I built the thing with the idea it had to hold a its own weight, couple hundred pounds and suspend from the ceiling, rather than be pushed or drug around a floor and carried across the seas and back (military).

View Cooler's profile

Cooler

299 posts in 837 days


#17 posted 10-27-2016 06:16 PM



My vote for blind dowels. Doweling centers from HF for $4 will help you a lot.

- Carloz

I was going to suggest that but scrolled down to see if anyone beat me to it.

He should drill the top piece of the face frame and insert and glue to the cabinet only. Then he can drill and use the centers to locate the additional positions. The alternative is to buy about 20 centers.

This will be quite strong and is not difficult to do. A bushing to assure that the holes are drilled square might be helpful.

-- This post is a hand-crafted natural product. Slight variations in spelling and grammar should not be viewed as flaws or defects, but rather as an integral characteristic of the creative process.

View jbay's profile

jbay

2271 posts in 893 days


#18 posted 10-27-2016 06:35 PM

Put some nails into the cabinet, cut off the heads, glue the face, hammer the frame into the nails using a block so you don’t mar the finish.

Alternatively, I think you could glue the cabinet and tape the frame in place until the glue dries and it would be just fine.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10373 posts in 3642 days


#19 posted 10-27-2016 06:37 PM

http://www.mod-eez.com/Dowels.htm – doesn’t
require clamping to squeeze doweled joints
shut. I would not use glued dowels in any
application where I could not get a clamp
on to force the joint tight if necessary.

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

207 posts in 1097 days


#20 posted 10-27-2016 10:33 PM


No offense. If I wouldn t call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.

- TheFridge

Offense intended or not, that comes across as rude and it doesn’t matter. It is a fine looking piece and it is totally up to the builder to do as he wishes. All of the above solutions are valid including nails. His choice.

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 586 days


#21 posted 10-31-2016 10:00 PM


http://www.mod-eez.com/Dowels.htm – doesn t
require clamping to squeeze doweled joints
shut. I would not use glued dowels in any
application where I could not get a clamp
on to force the joint tight if necessary.

- Loren

You mean you cannot prop the faceframe with a ladder/4×4/refrigerator/ to the frame ?

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 586 days


#22 posted 10-31-2016 10:06 PM


I might, also, say it s not fine furniture for the reason it s built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved.
- Kelly

Brilliant! Now I know how to make fine furniture! Just make is movable ! And all of you here who though they made fine job with those elaborate kitchen cabinets think again, It is just a framing work with pieces of plywood snapped on.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

9444 posts in 1480 days


#23 posted 10-31-2016 10:41 PM

No offense. If I wouldn t call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.

- TheFridge

Offense intended or not, that comes across as rude and it doesn t matter. It is a fine looking piece and it is totally up to the builder to do as he wishes. All of the above solutions are valid including nails. His choice.

- bilyo

I might, also, say it s not fine furniture for the reason it s built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved.
- Kelly

Brilliant! Now I know how to make fine furniture! Just make is movable ! And all of you here who though they made fine job with those elaborate kitchen cabinets think again, It is just a framing work with pieces of plywood snapped on.

- Carloz

Ladies. Ladies. I know it’s probably your times of the month but some people have these things called opinions. You can take em or you can leave em.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View jbay's profile

jbay

2271 posts in 893 days


#24 posted 10-31-2016 10:45 PM



Ladies. Ladies. I know it s probably your times of the month but some people have these things called opinions. You can take em or you can leave em.
- TheFridge

LOL, my opinions seem to bother a lot of people….go figure…

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2025 posts in 2938 days


#25 posted 10-31-2016 11:27 PM

Carlos, you erred in assigning my statements meaning and intent nowhere stated. In fact, you erred ignoring that I clarified the reason for my statement in it.

The built-ins are nice. In light of the inclination of some to presume negative intent, it may be I should have said so much.

This site was built for discussion and to share information. That, of course, is why the initial post showed up here to begin with, and the basis for my statement. If someone has something to input that would correct me on the matter, well, that’s why I come here too – for information. Of course, if someone builds a beautiful granite top hall table and wants to call it a Ford Streamliner, they could, but we might scratch our heads or presume the wrong picture was posted and that it was done on the wrong site.

The built-in isn’t intended to be moved, but furniture, to the best of my knowledge, is designed and intended to be. Were it otherwise, I just built a kitchen full of furniture most would call cabinets.

There are thousands of stairs that are nothing short of remarkable, but I and others wouldn’t call those fine furniture either. However, we might go on about the remarkable craftsmanship, and most wouldn’t think us being negative if we challenged a claim they are fine furniture.

I might, also, say it s not fine furniture for the reason it s built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved.
- Kelly

Brilliant! Now I know how to make fine furniture! Just make is movable ! And all of you here who though they made fine job with those elaborate kitchen cabinets think again, It is just a framing work with pieces of plywood snapped on.

- Carloz


View bilyo's profile

bilyo

207 posts in 1097 days


#26 posted 11-01-2016 12:02 AM

The original post said:

It would also be easy enough for me to a finish nail it through the face, but I was really looking for another alternative.

How anyone defines “fine furniture” is immaterial to the question. How about we just try to give the poster the alternatives he asks for?

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

9444 posts in 1480 days


#27 posted 11-01-2016 12:06 AM

It would be awesome if they nailed it in the end :)

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2025 posts in 2938 days


#28 posted 11-01-2016 02:32 AM

Boy, that would cut about fifty percent of the posts on this site down to half, and delete a lot of good info. Meanwhile, I just initiated my solution and selected the “unwatch” mode.


How anyone defines “fine furniture” is immaterial to the question. How about we just try to give the poster the alternatives he asks for?

- bilyo


View spaine's profile

spaine

4 posts in 2008 days


#29 posted 11-19-2016 06:13 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I am just now finally getting back to the project today. I can hardly wait for the day I can retire and actually work on projects full time. Hmmm…. that sounds like a job.

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