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Looking for advise; how would you build this?

by ShaneS
posted 12-21-2009 04:46 PM


30 replies so far

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cabinetmaster

10874 posts in 3374 days


#1 posted 12-21-2009 04:59 PM

I would build the base using 4 X 4 legs with adjusters on the bottom to adjust to the unevenness of the floor. The number of legs would depend on how you design everything else. If I knew more of what you want and where I think I could help you more.

-- Jerry--A man can never have enough tools or clamps

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#2 posted 12-21-2009 05:02 PM

Thanks Jerry, when you say “if I knew more of what your want”, what kind of additional information do you need? I will be more than glad to explain further.

Thanks for your reply,
Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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cabinetmaster

10874 posts in 3374 days


#3 posted 12-21-2009 05:10 PM

Can you sketch out an example of what you are trying to do? I know you mentioned cabinets, router, etc. If you can sketch something out I will try to help you more.

-- Jerry--A man can never have enough tools or clamps

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thewoodmaster

62 posts in 3008 days


#4 posted 12-21-2009 05:18 PM

Build an 8’x8’ frame out of 2×4’s. lay it on the floor where you want to put your TS station. fill the area with a self leveling concrete until the area is nice and flat. You may need to scribe the 2×4’s to the floor in order to keep the concrete from coming out the bottom.

dan

-- dan "insert pithy woodworking coment here"

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#5 posted 12-21-2009 05:20 PM

Thanks again Jerry. I don’t mean to be dense, but are you referring to Sketch-up or just hand draw something? I don’t know how to use Sketch-up so I guess that would rule that out. I began hand drawing, last night, but stopped cause I started thinking about this base problem and decided that I would post a question on LJ to see what others would do to attack this problem, so I do not have a drawing, at this time. I guess this question is more involved than what I realized it would be.

Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#6 posted 12-21-2009 05:25 PM

Thanks for your reply Dan. I did think along those lines but began to wonder if I would need to attach the new concrete pad to the barn floor and how much mixing that would involve. 8’ x 8’ would be a lot of concrete. The good side of doing this way would be that the base is attached to the floor and really shouldn’t go anywhere. Another thought is, would a pier and beam type base work?

Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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Julian

880 posts in 3341 days


#7 posted 12-21-2009 05:41 PM

I second the concrete idea. You don’t need a deep pour to correct the problem, so you shouldn’t need to mix too many bags. You’ll also end up with a solid smooth floor this way.

-- Julian, Park Forest, IL

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rcs47

182 posts in 2945 days


#8 posted 12-21-2009 05:43 PM

Shane,

Assuming you will never want to move the cabinet/saw… I would use straight KD stock (1×4 or 2×6) that spans the the distance. Using wedges, level these boards, then scribe/cut them to the floor. This will give you a very stable base.

If you want to move it around your shop, then find a level spot, build your cabinet with space for leveling feet. Rockler carries a couple different leveling feet:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5217&filter=adjustable%20feet
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2053

If you look at Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace, you will find threaded feet (Rockler “polished nickel glides”) that can be used with tee nuts to level.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=388&filter=threaded%20insert
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1592&filter=threaded%20insert

Good luck,

Doug

-- Doug - As my Dad taught me, you're not a cabinet maker until you can hide your mistakes.

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rtb

1101 posts in 3529 days


#9 posted 12-21-2009 05:44 PM

Shane, I would listen to Jerry, when the day comes when you need to move it to a different location either in or out of your shop the adjusters woyld allow you to easily adjust to the new location.Sorry Dan, I just think that we’ve become to mobile to set in concrete. (pun intended)

-- RTB. stray animals are just looking for love

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#10 posted 12-21-2009 05:46 PM

Thanks Julian, if I did go this way what should be the starting thickness of this pad be? One side is going to be thicker than the other so how thick should the thin side be?

Thanks in advance,
Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#11 posted 12-21-2009 05:53 PM

Thanks for the replies. I really don’t see the station moving once it’s built but I guess one should always plan for anything being possible. As far as the levelers go, remember that I have already built something similar and I used Rockler levelers on that project and it did sag under weight. The station/table is 4’ x 8’ and I used 6 levelers, 3 down each 8’ span. Stating the obvious, I guess, I would assume that if I am going to use levelers then I would need to use more than I did or I would need to frame the base better than I did. One of the thoughts that I keep having is, if I use levelers then I am essentially using “legs” and legs do not seem as stable as they should/could be. As you can tell, I am new to projects and woodworking, so I apologize a head of time for my lack of understanding. Doug said to use KD stock, could someone please tell me what that is? Thanks

Thanks for all the replies,
Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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rcs47

182 posts in 2945 days


#12 posted 12-21-2009 06:31 PM

Shane,

Sorry, KD = Kiln Dried

I was trying to say not to use the wet 2x? from Home Depot. You want something that once you scribe it to the floor, it will stay that way.

You bring up a good point on the support. 3 support feet in 8’ on your old table, no wonder you had sag. When I was suggesting laying out the boards to scribe to the floor, my mental picture was one board every two feet because you were describing a heavy load. So, I was already at twice your original support. Using that same 2’ on center (both directions), I would have put 15 feet on your old table. Using the tee nuts and threaded feet is not expensive.

What material do you plan to use?

Doug

-- Doug - As my Dad taught me, you're not a cabinet maker until you can hide your mistakes.

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#13 posted 12-21-2009 06:44 PM

Thanks Doug, I did have the base framed with 2×4’s and they were on 2 foot centers. The Rockler levelers I put at each corner and one at four foot. As far as the material I plan to use, since I already used 2×4’s I was wondering if 2×6’s would be a better way to go or if I use 2×4’s then should I frame it better than before. I like the scribing idea cause that would allow the base to make total contact and that seem to make it more durable. Now the scribing part seems complicated. Getting the base level by cutting the angles correctly.

Thanks for taking the time to lend a hand Doug,
Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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Julian

880 posts in 3341 days


#14 posted 12-21-2009 06:50 PM

If you are going on top of existing concrete, you can get away with about 1” for the thin side. I would also suggest using a bonding agent like this to ensure a good bond between the new poor and the existing floor.

-- Julian, Park Forest, IL

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#15 posted 12-21-2009 06:54 PM

Thanks Julian, I am sure glad you suggested the bonding agent cause I was wondering how I would bond to the existing concrete without drilling a bunch of holes and using re-bar. Also, thanks for answering the question on the thin side of the concrete. Something more to ponder now.

Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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GFYS

711 posts in 3287 days


#16 posted 12-21-2009 06:57 PM

fix the floor.

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#17 posted 12-21-2009 07:02 PM

Thanks Dan, I guess that was somewhat helpful??? The floor is over 4000 sq. ft. so I think I would rather find an alternative to your idea.

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

View jlsmith5963's profile

jlsmith5963

297 posts in 3164 days


#18 posted 12-21-2009 10:05 PM

When setting up a shop flexibility is always desirable, you just never know how you might want to change things in the future, so I would never recommend a permanent pad.

Your problem is nothing more than a cabinet installation project on an unlevel floor. One of the easiest ways to deal with it (when installing cabinets) is to build a separate toe kick platform that is shimmed to be level. However, given the free-standing and the extra weight of this project, I would recommend scribing the platform to make it level and thus providing a full bearing surface of the toe kick on the floor . There is an additional issue of preventing the wicking of moisture from the concrete floor to the cabinetry, using either a vapor barrier or pressure treated lumber would eliminate this problem.

Regarding your previous problems with sagging, this is a structural problem (deflection actually). There are 3 ways to deal with this:

1. Shorten the spans (ie add more legs as Doug suggests)
2. Stiffen the horizontal material to eliminate the deflection
3. Do a combination of 1. and 2.

I would probably build a ‘toe kick’ platform with interior webbing and a ‘skin’ (think one-sided torsion box). Then build the cabinets verticals with 3/4 plywood (double thick as needed for extra strength). The horizontals would be 3/4 ply, (also doubled as needed for strength and deflection) and if I had a really long span I would build a torsion box.

You can actually figure out the plywood deflections if you want to take the time, plywood design capacities.

-- criticism: the art of analyzing and evaluating the quality of an artistic work...

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rcs47

182 posts in 2945 days


#19 posted 12-22-2009 01:10 AM

Shane,

My thought process to building was formed by working for my Dad, who owned a cabinet shop for 50+ years. We built custom cabinets, and I was involved in everything from measurement through installation.

I don’t know what you have built in the past, but I would build it like a normal cabinet, in sections, once you have the level base. Like JLSmith suggested, plywood is the way to go for the main cabinet. If you scribe it to the floor, or use feet, I think plywood will give you a better product under the cabinet because its more stable.

With the level base, and station in sections, attach plywood partitions to the plywood base. This allows you to keep the work station square. If there is a section that will carry an extra heavy load, reinforce it with 2×4s (that’s what we did with oven cabinets). I would use lumber to face frame out the cabinet.

That’s what I would do. It will be something you will be seeing/using every time you go into the shop. Don’t go cheap.

Doug

-- Doug - As my Dad taught me, you're not a cabinet maker until you can hide your mistakes.

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#20 posted 12-22-2009 01:25 AM

Thanks JL and Doug. Very good advise and I really appreciate you guys taking the time to lend a hand. Doug I haven’t built much. I have always wanted to work with wood but just recently took it up so the only things I have done is by trial and error (more on the error side of things so far). Doug, when you said to “attach plywood partitiions to the plywood base”, I am not quite sure what you mean by this, so you explain in a different way for me.

To both of you, would you scribe the base or use feet. I have a thought that if I used feet, then I might would use 4×4 post as the feet instead of levelers.

Thanks for all the info,
Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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GFYS

711 posts in 3287 days


#21 posted 12-22-2009 01:32 AM

well I assume you arent going to use the entire 4000 sq ft barn as your shop area. Wood working equipment, although some considered stationary, isn’t all that stationary. Seems to me setting up a floor area suitable for machinery makes more sense than building movable components to fit an unsuitable floor which will then not work unless you make the components adjustable. But whatever.

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rcs47

182 posts in 2945 days


#22 posted 12-22-2009 03:54 AM

Shane,

It starts with the overall layout. 8’x8’ is hard to work with. But you know where the items will be located, and can break it into workable sections. Say you end up with one section 2’x8’. You could break it up with a stack of drawers on each end two doors in the middle. So, you have two end panels (hang down over the base), two partitions (remember to cut a notch for the back support, the front is supported by the face), and a shelf. By making it in sections, you can turn the base up and glue/screw the parts together.

If you watch Norm, he would cut rabbets and dados, then glue screw the pieces into place. If you want practice with your router or dado set, you can always cut these, but I don’t think they are needed.

The level base is critical, it all builds up from there. Keep the parts to a size you can work with, turn, and then pull together in its final form with screws.

Doug

-- Doug - As my Dad taught me, you're not a cabinet maker until you can hide your mistakes.

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jlsmith5963

297 posts in 3164 days


#23 posted 12-22-2009 04:16 AM

Given your lack of experience I would suggest you spend some time watching the various You Tube videos listed under kitchen cabinet making or kitchen cabinet construction to familiarizes yourself with the various ways you can build plywood cabinets. There are many acceptable ways and it is really up to you to determine which way you want to use based on your skill level, the tools you own, costs, and time, etc. Once you been through the free online stuff you should have a better idea on how you want to proceed. Next you may want to consider visiting a local book store’s DIY section to see if there is a cabinet making book that uses the same (or similar) cabinet construction. A book can be well worth the money because it can offer a lot of detail and be easier to access in the shop than a You Tube video.

As to your feet vs a scribed base, this is a tough call to make ‘blind’. Either could work. Its more about your skills in my opinion. You need to find a solution that falls within your skill range otherwise you risk being disappointed with the results, as you were with your first ‘sagging’ attempt.

-- criticism: the art of analyzing and evaluating the quality of an artistic work...

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patron

13590 posts in 3157 days


#24 posted 12-22-2009 04:33 AM

when we built ’ plugs ’ ( real size boats , for fiberglass molds ) ,
we would make a 2×6 frame ,
and set it on shims to level it .
then use about a gallon of ’ bondo ’ ( auto store )
to ’ tag ’ it to the floor .
the stuff is some of the best bonding agent made .
put little ’ cow pies ’ of it every couple of feet ,
and use this as a kick for your boxes .

-- david - only thru kindness can this world be whole . If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#25 posted 12-22-2009 06:37 AM

Thanks to everyone for all the good idea’s. Now I have much more to ponder and go off of.

Thanks again,
Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

View rcs47's profile

rcs47

182 posts in 2945 days


#26 posted 12-22-2009 06:50 AM

JLS,

Great idea about Youtube. I was trying to think about where Shane could see different cabinets being put together. I don’t know why I forget about Youtube.

I think Norm is doing something with kitchen cabinets now if Shane can find him on PBS.

Doug

-- Doug - As my Dad taught me, you're not a cabinet maker until you can hide your mistakes.

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rcs47

182 posts in 2945 days


#27 posted 12-22-2009 07:29 PM

Shane,

To use 4×4 legs, first set up the grid of level boards in both directions. Then you can set each leg in place and mark a level line. This might be your final height, or just a line that you can reference. You can transfer that line around the leg using a level without moving the leg. Each leg will be in full contact with the floor, and be level at the top, but may lean a little depending on the floor.

The other method is put each leg in place, scribe and cut it to the floor, then mark to to height.

I would set the outside legs in place and determine if I could see any lean to the legs before I went to the trouble of the second method. The interior legs will not be seen unless someone gets down on their hands and knees. If someone says something, kick ‘em while they are down there:->

Be sure to make a map for the legs.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but lay out the station, then you can make sure each section can stand up by itself before you push them together for final assembly. This might put legs a couple inches apart, but they are in different sections.

What are you going to do in the center of you 8’x8’ station?

Doug

-- Doug - As my Dad taught me, you're not a cabinet maker until you can hide your mistakes.

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JimDaddyO

516 posts in 2895 days


#28 posted 12-22-2009 07:52 PM

Instead of regular concrete use “self leveling” concrete. You just pour it out and give it a quick once over and it will settle itself level. You will need an empty shop if you want to do the whole floor, and you MUST have a clean floor and use an adheision promoter.

-- my blog: http://watertoneworkshop.blogspot.ca/ my You Tube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA5AretE3xPoVDV61AxUdUA?view_as=subscriber

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ShaneS

35 posts in 3602 days


#29 posted 12-23-2009 04:12 AM

Thanks for coming back with further instructions, Doug. As to your question on the space in the center of the 8’ x 8’ station. I really don’t know just yet. I do have some jigs that are sort of long so I could use one cabinet space for them but there will still be space left over. I will have to keep thinking it through but if anyone has some suggestions I will sure be open minded to hearing them.

Thanks for the advise,
Shane

-- We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. C.S. Lewis

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rcs47

182 posts in 2945 days


#30 posted 12-23-2009 04:21 AM

Shane,

A drawback of putting the station on legs is at some point you will want/need to clean under it. If you scribe it to the floor, you don’t have that worry.

Earlier I referenced putting boards two feet a part, make them level (to each other too), then scribe them to the floor. To finish this substructure, after you’ve cut these boards to the floor, connect them together using 1x material every 12” – 16”. The plywood deck goes over this strong base. The cabinet end pieces should extend past the deck, and connect to the substructure.

If you want to build the station as one unit, you can connect the partitions by toe nailing them to the deck in position (the nails will hold it until the glue dries). Or, you can use a cleat, screwing or nailing it to the deck and partition. Just remember to notch the top back of each partition before you put it in place for the back support (if that’s what you plan to use). It just makes life easier.

Doug

-- Doug - As my Dad taught me, you're not a cabinet maker until you can hide your mistakes.

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