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All Replies on Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen

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View Dchip's profile

Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen

by Dchip
posted 1749 days ago


31 replies so far

View blackcherry's profile

blackcherry

3145 posts in 2410 days


#1 posted 1749 days ago

Both are exceptional tools and for the value LV would be my choice take nothing away from LN.

View Moron's profile

Moron

4666 posts in 2480 days


#2 posted 1749 days ago

LN is “prettier” then LV but they both work the same. Albeit I have the LV I would prefer the LN as it fits nicer in my hand.

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

View Douglas Bordner's profile

Douglas Bordner

3958 posts in 2651 days


#3 posted 1749 days ago

I second blackcherry. I also like the fact that many of the LV designs are complete innovations as opposed to older Stanley designs. Both companies pay admirable attention to machining, materials and details, so I would certainly not sneeze at owning either (or both). My budget is more revived Stanley Bailey and Sargent.

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

View Walnut_Weasel's profile

Walnut_Weasel

360 posts in 1809 days


#4 posted 1749 days ago

Dan,

I too am a newbie and have little tools, money, or space and have decided to invest in hand tools. After buying my first hand plane (crappy Groz), I realized that the old stanley style planes do produce a wonderful finish and are fun to use. However I recently read an article in Popular Woodworking that talked about the advantanges of bevel-up bench planes – the biggest being that one plane can do the work of several planes and that they are easier for a newbie to adjust. Some searching on the internet (including Lie-Nielson’s site if you look hard enough) confirm that bevel-up planes do seem to be the way to go if you do not already have money invested in the stanley-style planes. Here is the link to a form where I posed this question to our fellow lumberjocks.

Regardless of what choice you make – I don’t think you can go wrong with either LN or LV. I plan on getting a LN bevel-up jack plane with a second blade in the next week or two. Once I get a chance to try it out, I will be sure to post a review.

-- James - www.walnutweasel.wordpress.com

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2236 days


#5 posted 1749 days ago

both are exceptional in quality and machining, and you couldn’t go wrong with either one.

I’m personally a Lee-Valley guy, I really like their innovations, and their designs. although at this point – neither one is in my budget.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View Kindlingmaker's profile

Kindlingmaker

2653 posts in 2113 days


#6 posted 1749 days ago

The first plane has been a Veritas med shoulder plane and I quickly realized what a real plane was. Both LV and LN are great, I lean towards LV.

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

View Dchip's profile

Dchip

267 posts in 1839 days


#7 posted 1748 days ago

Some great input, thanks everyone. What would be the downside to a bevel-up plane, since most comments seem to be in praise of such? Also, isn’t bevel-up the common orientation for block planes? I have a cheap Stanley that I got from HD and did some work on, to the best of my ability, and it works well right after I sharpen the blade, but performance quickly falls off (I realize this speaks more to the blade quality, not overall plane, but am still skeptical of the overall quality of new Stanley plane( i.e. plastic handles, loose, multiple blade adjustment screws, etc.)). I would like to buy a block plane that I know will be off the highest quality for the life of the plane, and as such am leaning towards the Lee Valley LA Veritas block plane with adjustable mouth. I have read elsewhere, however, that the adjustable mouth makes the plane a but more unwieldy, something that seems to go against the whole purpose of a block plane. Any comments?

Also, to Walnut – The idea of getting multiple planing action in one plane sounds appealing, but my experience with these things in the past is that they do all things less well than their dedicated counterparts. While I can’t speak specifically for quality woodworking tools, I would hope to one day have a full collection of quality planes. Again, perhaps someone with more experience could comment on this as well?

-- Dan Chiappetta, NYC, http://www.9x7woodworks.com

View Walnut_Weasel's profile

Walnut_Weasel

360 posts in 1809 days


#8 posted 1748 days ago

Dan,

I cannot make a comment for certain (yet) – just repeat what I have been told so far. The “all for one” approach to the bevel-up plane is that just by changing the blade’s micro bevel you can significantly change the cutting action of the tool. You can have one blade set at less than 45 degrees to cut end grain like a block plane, and a second blade set at 45 degrees (or greater) to give the plane the same (or at least very similar) action as a standard bench plane. Changing the cutting angle on a standard bench plane can be done, but it is a bit more complex and once it is changed, a bit more difficult to revert the cutting angle back to the original 45.

Again – I have not yet had a chance to use a bevel-up for myself. I was just about ready to start buying old Stanley planes and reconditioning them when I found out about the bevel-up planes. If they are as good as folks are claiming – it is a no-brainer to buy one and I thought I would make you aware of them.

Here is a web article from Popular Woodworking talks a bit about both positives and negatives of bevel-up.

And item number 4 on the Lie-Nielson Q&A page recommends that a person start with a bevel-up plane.

-- James - www.walnutweasel.wordpress.com

View Llarian's profile

Llarian

128 posts in 2194 days


#9 posted 1748 days ago

Aren’t all block planes bevel-up?

-- Dylan Vanderhoof - General hobbiest and reluctant penmaker. http://llarian.etsy.com

View Dchip's profile

Dchip

267 posts in 1839 days


#10 posted 1748 days ago

Hey James,

Thanks for the effort put into helping. I’m going to put some more research into this topic, maybe even try to find a few to test out, before I start look for a larger plane, such as a jack or jointer. I actually just placed an order for the Lee Valley Veritas LA block plane, which is bevel-up, though I imagine this would be difficult to compare to a jack plane or jointer plane. I will post an update when it arrives. Hope your journey into woodworking treats you well.

-- Dan Chiappetta, NYC, http://www.9x7woodworks.com

View Walnut_Weasel's profile

Walnut_Weasel

360 posts in 1809 days


#11 posted 1748 days ago

Dylan – All block planes that I have ran across are bevel-up. However I have been refering to bevel-up bench planes.

-- James - www.walnutweasel.wordpress.com

View rblaiklock's profile

rblaiklock

6 posts in 1748 days


#12 posted 1748 days ago

I own multiple planes from both LV and LN, all excellent products, and as has been said before, you won’t be making a mistake with either.

I was not a fan of the original LV block plane as it was a wider design, but the new model has gone to a narrower design which is easier for me to hold.

One plus for LV is the ability to get either A2 and/or O2 blades if you care about such things (LN is just A2, last time I made a purchase). For a block plane it’s less of an issue as the blade is small, so sharpening is not a major task.

View Francisco Luna's profile

Francisco Luna

936 posts in 1980 days


#13 posted 1747 days ago

both planes are outstanding tools…..
Tradition, beauty, heirloom quality Tool? .........LN
Performance, innovation, quality, excellent* Customer Service?.........Veritas.

-- Nature is my manifestation of God. I go to nature every day for inspiration in the day's work. I follow in building the principles which nature has used in its domain" Frank Lloyd Wright

View Mark Shymanski's profile

Mark Shymanski

4976 posts in 2300 days


#14 posted 1747 days ago

I was at LV in Wpg a last fall and they offered to let me test drive their planes on a slow evening. I couln’t take advantage of the offer as I live outside of Wpg and scheduling never seemed to work out. Jen bought me one of their planes for Christmas (see my avatar) and I really enjoy using it. I have a #4 (inherited) and it works okay, but nowhere near as nice as the LV. I would recommend taking the planes for a test drive if you can arrange it.

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

View CanadaJeff's profile

CanadaJeff

207 posts in 2197 days


#15 posted 1746 days ago

I envy you all!
I wish I had $300 to drop on a premium block plane.

Well back to my Stanely Number 4!

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

111999 posts in 2164 days


#16 posted 1746 days ago

I have read many reviews on both planes and they always get good reviews. I don’t own either even though I like quality tools my old stanley’s planes work well after being tuned and sharpened. I have always felt the
$ 300 – $ 500 + was better spent on any number of other tools. I know that owning these planes makes others feel like you must do great work because there so darn pretty ,but what makes a good project is good workmanship. I would certainly not turn my nose up at either plane as a gift if a family member wanted to get carried away and do not fault anyone for owning quality tools.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View TheDane's profile

TheDane

3635 posts in 2250 days


#17 posted 1746 days ago

I need a decent block plane, so this topic caught my eye.

According to stuff I have read, Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen are close to a toss-up. I was leaning toward a Lie-Nielsenl, but now that Stanley has introduced new versions of some of their planes, I’m wondering if they deserve a look? I’m tempted to order a Stanley 60 1/2

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

111999 posts in 2164 days


#18 posted 1746 days ago

Hey Dane
You might want to take a look on e bay .I find that older Stanley’s are made better and usually less expensive.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanley-60-1-2-Low-Angle-Hand-Block-Plane-Nice_W0QQitemZ270461135089QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef8bd68f1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View TheDane's profile

TheDane

3635 posts in 2250 days


#19 posted 1746 days ago

a1Jim—Right you are. I have a bunch of vintage Stanleys (including an 1894 No 3 smoother) that I wouldn’t trade for all of the tea in China.

But my Stanley ‘contractor grade’ block plane is just a piece of slag. I read somewhere that the new Stanley Sweethearts are more akin to the vintage planes in terms of quality.

BTW … I noticed somebody has a Stanley No 1 on eBay … current bid was $600! That is what I call Shop Jewelry!.

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

View Dchip's profile

Dchip

267 posts in 1839 days


#20 posted 1746 days ago

I ended up going with the Lee Valley LA Block Plane. I thought it was reasonable for $139 since I expect it to last a lifetime or more and being 25 with no kids I can rationalize the money spent for the many years of quality I’m sure it will provide me. I’ve come across the advice a number of times that you should always “get the best tool you can afford at the time” and after a couple of Ryobi products of questionable quality I figured hand tools were a good place to put this to practice.
Since the subject has been brought up, and since I recently tuned and sharpened a cheap HD plane to relatively good working order for the first time, I was wondering what you (anyone with some experience) look for in a vintage plane, say on Ebay, that would let you know its quality? I’m still in the market for a good jack-plane, and these tend to get up in price when you go for LV or LN. Thanks.

-- Dan Chiappetta, NYC, http://www.9x7woodworks.com

View TheDane's profile

TheDane

3635 posts in 2250 days


#21 posted 1746 days ago

I have bought some planes via eBay … my advice is to go for the older Stanleys or Records (pre-WWII). Some of the eBay sellers know how to date the planes, some don’t. There are a number of websites where you can get info on how to date a Stanley according to its Type number.

In terms of condition, what you are looking for is the condition of the sole (some are badly pitted or warped), and make sure there are no cracks in the castings. I don’t worry much about the irons and chip-breakers (I replace them with new Hock products as soon as the arrive). It is a plus if the tote and knob are in usable condition, but that is not a deal breaker as you can find replacements either on eBay or via online retailers at reasonable prices, and Stanley still sells screws and hardware kits for some of the odler models.

And don’t be afraid of a little rust. One of my best acquisitions was a rusty Stanley No 7 Jointer. Rust can be removed with electrolysis (search LJ’s for some postings on that), and if the Japanning is bad, most auto supply stores sell engine paint that can be use to make them look nice. My $20 No 7 Jointer turned out to be real prize!

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

111999 posts in 2164 days


#22 posted 1746 days ago

Good info Dane I feel silly telling you to look for good used planes when your already are an expert. I pretty much shop the same way you do for planes on e bay.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View Chuck 's profile

Chuck

88 posts in 1787 days


#23 posted 1746 days ago

Well I decided to shell out some bucks and bought the LN low angle block plane and low angle jack plane – superb tools. The deciding factor on which brand to go with was buying a made in the USA product. I wanted to give my support to a small business during the recession.

-- Chuck, Washington D.C.

View blackcherry's profile

blackcherry

3145 posts in 2410 days


#24 posted 1746 days ago

I can honestly say that I don’t know which block plane perform better than the other and I own both LV and LN block planes. But what I do know it beats the snot out of any sandpaper,belt sander, block sander, disc sander ect, ect, ect. known to me…LOL…Blkcherry

View ondablade's profile

ondablade

105 posts in 1785 days


#25 posted 1746 days ago

I can’t speak of performance as yet, but i’ve just spent a very pleasant evening opening up my shipment from Lee Valley which included a set of bevel up planes including a low angle block, plus some shoulder planes – plus enough spare blades (01 in the 25deg, A2 in the rest) to give the range of angle and camber options.

They were bought blind based on the almost universally positive feedback in reviews (there are relatively few in use over here in Ireland, and i don’t know of anybody with them), but having handled them i have to say i’m really taken by the look and feel.

I’m a bit of an engineering/toolroom purist, with a strong Zen flavour to my view – but they strike such a lovely combination of functional beauty, precision, finish where needed, just the right heft and minimalism. Right up my street. If they work as well as they look and feel to my eyes it will be just fabulous. Not a hint of superfluous bling!

Time will tell, but speaking as a guy who really struggles with the idea of the custom painted table saws starting to be offered recently in the US you’ll appreciate where i’m coming from.

Have to check out my insurance cover tomorrow. Not too sure where Lee Valley is coming from with the rather more blingy and expensive line of block planes they’ve come out with though..

Can anybody advise a good rust protection regime for tools that won’t stain wood? My shop is heated, but unless i keep the boiler going strong it’s been known to get cold enough once or twice in winter for condensation and consequent rust to become an issue. I’ve used WD 40, but it’s a bit messy. I’ve heard of a Japanese oil being used, but have never seen it…...

-- Late awakener....

View jsheaney's profile

jsheaney

141 posts in 2575 days


#26 posted 1746 days ago

As a handtool newbie, I decided on the LV bevel up set of planes: smoother, jack and jointer. LN also has a similar set, but the LV blades are all interchangeable between the three. I also really like the set screws the the stop for the mouth opening on the LV planes. I also bought a couple extra blades, so I have four different bevel angle and a toothed blade, all of which can be used in any of the three planes. It’s a great set.

However, I do want to point out one thing. Since then, I treated myself to the LN jointer (bevel down). One thing I have noted is that the bevel down blade is significantly faster to sharpen and I think the blade stays sharper longer. I don’t think it’s because of the metal; they both use A2 steel. I think it’s the geometry of the bevel being down and they way blades wear.

So, I now use my LN jointer as my go-to plane for flattening and I use my LV planes to minimize tearout and to do the final smoothing. I also often use the bevel up jack with a low angle for shooting.

-- Disappointment is an empty box full of expectation.

View coloradoclimber's profile

coloradoclimber

548 posts in 2655 days


#27 posted 1746 days ago

I own a small selection of LV planes, 2 low angle blocks (not the new ones), the low angle jointer, LA jack, LA smoother, and medium shoulder. I also own a Lie Nielsen low angle block and rabbet block.

I like the LV LA planes and would not trade them for LN. That said I went to the wood working show and had a chance to use a LN block. The LN block is a bit smaller than the LV and actually fits my hand better. I don’t have particularly small hands but the LN block is a bit lighter and seems to have a more secure grip in use. I like both manufacturers block planes but I would have to give the nod to LN for comfort and pleasure to use. I picked up the LN block and rabbet soon after the show.

Wood Magazine had a hand tool area set up with a selection of LN and LV planes. I played around with a couple of the LN bench planes side by side with some LV bench planes. For the bench planes I prefer the LV LA.

In use I prefer the LA planes and I like the innovations of the LV planes. For that kind of money I looked at both LV and LN closely before deciding on LV. I am happy with my choice.

I have a bailey #5, a couple of stanley and craftsman #4s, and half a dozen stanley and record standard angle blocks to compare to. They don’t really compare. I have used and occasionally still do use the older planes but in reality anything less than a bedrock doesn’t have the weight or rigidity of the new LN or LV planes. Blade thickness, breaker, frog rigidity, sole thickness, blade adjustment backlash on the old planes are not even in the same class as the LN and LV planes. The LV / LN planes actually are that much better. Worth the money in my book.

All of that said the one thing that will crush any plane, a zillion dollar LN or a bargain basement junker, is a dull blade. If you want to enjoy using your planes you MUST learn to sharpen them. The blade needs to be sharp, sharp enough to shave with at least. A junky plane with sharp blade can still be a pleasure to use. A top of the line LN or LV with a dull blade will only result in grief.

View Walnut_Weasel's profile

Walnut_Weasel

360 posts in 1809 days


#28 posted 1745 days ago

I am still planning to buy a LA jack plane soon. Originally I was set on the LN, but everyone is starting to sway me toward the LV…

-- James - www.walnutweasel.wordpress.com

View Walnut_Weasel's profile

Walnut_Weasel

360 posts in 1809 days


#29 posted 1742 days ago

Has anyone used the new stanley sweethearts yet?

-- James - www.walnutweasel.wordpress.com

View Dchip's profile

Dchip

267 posts in 1839 days


#30 posted 1740 days ago

Got my LA Veritas block plane in the mail yesterday. Only had an hour or so to try it out. Did a quick sharpening of the blade on a 4000 water stone and was very happy. As mentioned above I believe, it fits large in the hand but is still manageable. Also, the adjustment knobs make fine tuning of blade amazingly easy (compared with a cheap two screws blade adjustment on a HD plane). Well worth the money, you can see and feel the quality.

-- Dan Chiappetta, NYC, http://www.9x7woodworks.com

View Walnut_Weasel's profile

Walnut_Weasel

360 posts in 1809 days


#31 posted 1716 days ago

I finally purchased my Lie-Nielsen bevel-up jack plane. WOW!! What an awesome tool! Definitely glad I went for the bevel-up. I have not used it much yet, but so far it has handled hogging of thick savings all the way down to final surfacing with no fuss. Totally worth the money…they are not kidding, ready to use right out of the box. It took me less than 15 minutes to put the final hone on the iron. I can’t wait to try it out on some really wild grained stuff!

-- James - www.walnutweasel.wordpress.com

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