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View rwe2156's profile

Charles Neil - a craftsman?

by rwe2156
posted 08-19-2015 06:34 PM


1 2 next »
79 replies

79 replies so far

View OggieOglethorpe's profile

OggieOglethorpe

1276 posts in 1946 days


#1 posted 08-19-2015 06:42 PM

The end product can be quite beautiful and very well made (especially when someone excels at finishing like Mr Neil) yet the person is not a “craftsman” in the true sense of the word.

BS…

That is all.

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2711 posts in 1316 days


#2 posted 08-19-2015 06:52 PM


The end product can be quite beautiful and very well made (especially when someone excels at finishing like Mr Neil) yet the person is not a “craftsman” in the true sense of the word.

BS…

That is all.

- OggieOglethorpe

EDIT: I meant it as a question, not a statment of opinion.

I’ll take your answer either way.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

17024 posts in 2842 days


#3 posted 08-19-2015 07:03 PM

I dunno, the guy’s been at it professionally for quite a long time. I guess you can call him whatever you want, or don’t want, but he’s makin a living out of it and that’s more than I can say for myself.

-- Its not a crack, its a casting imperfection.

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

116566 posts in 3413 days


#4 posted 08-19-2015 07:11 PM

Hey Guys Charles has hand skills and hand cut dovetails for years and years.Charles turns out lots of high-end furniture every year in as much as other shops don’t always believe he can turn out 40-50 major furniture pieces a year. Be sides be an incredible craftsman Charles keeps experimenting on better ways to do things,this is why he as good as he is. Yes Charles is an expert finisher but he is an outstanding woodworker too . Charles is a one take kind of guy so if he goofs it’s on camera not edited out,what he says “is if he’s going to goof it’s almost always when he’s Camera.I stronly recommend Charles,videos, books, online classes and in person classes

If in doubt take a look at the furniture he turns out

http://www.cn-woodworking.com/woodworking-photo-gallery/

http://www.cn-woodworking.com/welcome-to-charles-neil-woodwo/

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3293 posts in 1633 days


#5 posted 08-19-2015 07:12 PM

Perhaps this is a way to say it. In a forced choice question, “process or finished product, which is more important?” someone like Chris Schwarz or other more purists types might come down on the process side—I think Charles Neil comes down on the finished product side. I love learning from the process types, but am myself a finished product woodworker.

There might be a better typology, and most of us fit somewhere in the middle, but I think Chris Schwarz might choose to do something they way they did in the 19th century for the process while Charles cares more about how well built it is and how it looks.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View mds2's profile

mds2

310 posts in 1780 days


#6 posted 08-19-2015 07:19 PM

Use and proficiency of hand tools hardly a craftsman makes.

My grandather, at 93 has been a woodworker for close to 80 years. Never uses hand tools. But if you are ever in Historic Nebraska City look at the old historic homes. He did the finish carpentry on the interiors of nearly every one in that town. Come back and tell me if you think he is craftsman or not.

“I supported myself, your grandma, and 4 children with nothing but my table saw and a router” -Gpa.

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Adrock1

43 posts in 1042 days


#7 posted 08-19-2015 07:32 PM

Hand tools are not required to be a craftsman. In my opinion a true craftsman is someone who can can consistently execute high quality work regardless of the tool use.

I don’t think it takes much more skill or talent to turn out good hand work then it does good machined work. Maybe different skills but not more skills. The main difference I think is that hand work takes much more time and physical effort. Put simply it takes more work. Getting good results with either approach still requires good execution.

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2711 posts in 1316 days


#8 posted 08-19-2015 07:38 PM

I probably shouldn’t have mentioned Charles Neil by name and I apologize both to him and to anybody who is offended by my poor choice of wording. I have a lot of respect for the man’s talents.
Please don’t interpret my questions as questioning his abilities.

The question was meant to be a general rhetorical question.

That book has caused me to think more about “producing” vs. “crafting” and the old days of apprenticeships and reaching a point where one takes on the moniker “master”. One person I think of nowadays is Philip Lowe. After watching him work, or watching the Doucette and Wolfe videos, I think anyone would appreciate what I’m trying to say.

When I hear about ww’ers who don’t own a handplane, that makes me wonder. I couldn’t imagine fitting a drawer or door without one.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Arlin Eastman's profile

Arlin Eastman

4040 posts in 2397 days


#9 posted 08-19-2015 07:42 PM

Charles Neal is a great guy IMHO and a craftsmen to boot.

I feel anyone who makes things and tries hard to do better and not satisfied at OK is a Craftsman!!

-- Please help me help other Vets click..> http://www.gofundme.com/m1abko.....It is always the right time, to do the right thing.

View RBWoodworker's profile

RBWoodworker

441 posts in 3188 days


#10 posted 08-19-2015 07:49 PM

Most of you know of, or heard of, or even met personally, the late Sam Maloof. I knew him personally and spent many great hours with the man.. once I asked him if he ever made mistakes. He laughed and took me to a big bin that was full of cut chair parts. Arms, legs, just about every part of furniture that he made..and pointed at it and said yes..I have..all the time, everyday.

As for hand tools only.. he’s reply was “if your going to do woodworking for a living, you have to produce or your going to starve to death. He used whatever tool was best for the task at hand..he would use his teeth if it worked the best. I agree with Sam. You use whatever tool is best for the job.. I dare anyone to tell me Sam was not a true craftsman..

-- Randall Child http://www.racfurniture.com/

View Pezking7p's profile

Pezking7p

3217 posts in 1487 days


#11 posted 08-19-2015 07:58 PM

I don’t think any of these guys is a real craftsman because they all bought lumber from a mill or a hardwood dealer. REAL craftsman fell the tree with an ax that they forged themselves and then mill the lumber with home made saws. And, really, I think you ought to plant the tree as well to really get involved in the creative process at the ground level.

I’m obviously hyperbolizing here, but you get the point. In our culture we equate hard work and “skill” with quality and craftsmanship. But I agree with others that it takes just as much skill to, say, dial in a table saw so that it will cut square (or even to mill a square part) as it does to tune a hand plane.

We live in a small world of people who’s hobby is building things. I think if you go outside this small world, you’ll find all sorts of people who would be baffled by everyone here (woodworkers, et al) and their ability to create things. Most people I work with would not be capable of producing the pieces that LJs create using ANY set of tools.

And that is what I think separates the craftsman from the non-craftsman. It’s people who have a passion for creating, and who can do it well, regardless of the means.

-- -Dan

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MrUnix

5991 posts in 2035 days


#12 posted 08-19-2015 07:58 PM

When I hear about ww ers who don t own a handplane, that makes me wonder. I couldn t imagine fitting a drawer or door without one.

Your definition of ‘woodworker’ is too narrow. There are many types of woodworking that have no need for a hand plane :)

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View Daruc's profile

Daruc

460 posts in 968 days


#13 posted 08-19-2015 08:36 PM


Charles turns out lots of high-end furniture every year in as much as other shops don t always believe he can turn out 40-50 major furniture pieces a year.

- a1Jim

Can or does?
That’s almost 1 per week.
I’m not sure what your calling high end major furniture, but if he’s turning out almost 1 a week (every week) he’s not doing it by himself…JMO…

Whether he’s a Craftsman or not, no question he is a good woodworker, just as thousands of others that are equally as good, and better. Some just don’t put themselves in the limelight sort to speak.

I think the term “Craftsman” has many definitions.

-- -

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jdh122

961 posts in 2653 days


#14 posted 08-19-2015 08:46 PM

Post removed.

-- Jeremy, in the Acadian forests

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Neitsdelf

1 post in 1372 days


#15 posted 08-19-2015 08:50 PM

Was Stradivari less of a craftsman because he had the help of apprentices and journeymen?

View Richard's profile

Richard

1912 posts in 2526 days


#16 posted 08-19-2015 08:56 PM



I don t think any of these guys is a real craftsman because they all bought lumber from a mill or a hardwood dealer. REAL craftsman fell the tree with an ax that they forged themselves and then mill the lumber with home made saws. And, really, I think you ought to plant the tree as well to really get involved in the creative process at the ground level.

I m obviously hyperbolizing here, but you get the point. In our culture we equate hard work and “skill” with quality and craftsmanship. But I agree with others that it takes just as much skill to, say, dial in a table saw so that it will cut square (or even to mill a square part) as it does to tune a hand plane.

We live in a small world of people who s hobby is building things. I think if you go outside this small world, you ll find all sorts of people who would be baffled by everyone here (woodworkers, et al) and their ability to create things. Most people I work with would not be capable of producing the pieces that LJs create using ANY set of tools.
And that is what I think separates the craftsman from the non-craftsman. It s people who have a passion for creating, and who can do it well, regardless of the means.

- Pezking7p


I work in the IT field and almost anytime I bring in something or even a photo of something that I made from wood (that I bought at the store) the people I work with seem to be amazed at it , and I am a Crappy Wood Worker but do hope to get better.
So maybe a Craftsman is just someone that makes something even if it doesn’t turn out as good as some other Craftsman’s work.

View ShaneA's profile

ShaneA

6864 posts in 2434 days


#17 posted 08-19-2015 09:03 PM

As mentioned this thread and others like it have been on here before several times. It is so subjective. To each his own definition.

I do agree that using Charles’ name is a bit uneasy feeling.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3706 days


#18 posted 08-19-2015 09:07 PM

so would the op be up to a challenge build , totally old school .. just asking ?
you have to video the entire process, lots of dovetails, scratch moldings, inlay .. sounds like fun to me , all totally by hand …........ how about some sand shaded fans and carvings .. oh yea .. What say you ?
I got 62 hand planes, 27 spoke shaves, 17 dove tail saws, and 40 molding planes , I didnt start out with machines, ever watch the move ” Quigly Down Under, ” (sp) if not fast forward to the end, just cause I dont use them on camera, DAMN sure dont mean I dont know how to use them . Its how I started . 40 couple years ago .

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

18620 posts in 2519 days


#19 posted 08-19-2015 09:17 PM

well…that leaves my humble works out, now don’t it.

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View jmartel's profile

jmartel

7520 posts in 1986 days


#20 posted 08-19-2015 09:19 PM

Charles, I think that would be a great thread for the rest of us. Watch a couple people in a build-off.

-- The quality of one's woodworking is directly related to the amount of flannel worn.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3706 days


#21 posted 08-19-2015 09:22 PM

I agree , its a put up or shut up sort of thing , Im good . The ops call ..

Like stumpy, the project is his call.

I would like to see the project be an original design, I mean any “CRAFTSMAN” should be able to design as well .

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

4697 posts in 1556 days


#22 posted 08-19-2015 09:26 PM

Does one cease being a craftsman when using nesting software and CNC programming are the primary skills with the secondary being assembly & finishing?

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3706 days


#23 posted 08-19-2015 09:42 PM

put this on my Face Book page, I hope the Op is up to the challenge, this has “fun ” written all over it .

View Daruc's profile

Daruc

460 posts in 968 days


#24 posted 08-19-2015 09:59 PM

I went to look at that episode, and would have to agree about the dovetails.

There not the tightest, and I doubt that a craftsman would have to cut thin strips to cram into the cracks, but I’m sure it was just do to making a video and that if he had to he probably could make a nice one had he taken the time.

Remember, in the video he says, ” it’s just woodworking 101”,
Probably would not be in the “high end fine furniture” videos. :)

-- -

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3706 days


#25 posted 08-19-2015 10:03 PM

is this not a recovery segment, keep it in context, if you want to put me down, thats fine, just be honest

View Daruc's profile

Daruc

460 posts in 968 days


#26 posted 08-19-2015 10:10 PM

I don’t know if it’s a recovery segment or not. I only skipped ahead to see the quality of the dovetails.
To be honest, I couldn’t watch 42 minutes of that video. Nothing personal, there too slow for me.

As far as putting you down, I didn’t think it was.
Your ego gets hurt easily.

-- -

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3706 days


#27 posted 08-19-2015 10:11 PM

Let me perfectly clear, , I don’t owe the woodworking world a damn thing, and I dont have any apologies to make, and I dont answer forums any more, Im 62 , and doing well, made a hell of a living doing woodwork, raised kids , and grand kids, and make a good living , I dont need to deal with the internet and forums , but if someone wants to have some fun and do a challenge build Im game, just for fun .

View Texcaster's profile

Texcaster

1262 posts in 1510 days


#28 posted 08-19-2015 10:15 PM


so would the op be up to a challenge build , totally old school .. just asking ?
you have to video the entire process, lots of dovetails, scratch moldings, inlay .. sounds like fun to me , all totally by hand …........ how about some sand shaded fans and carvings .. oh yea .. What say you ?
I got 62 hand planes, 27 spoke shaves, 17 dove tail saws, and 40 molding planes , I didnt start out with machines, ever watch the move ” Quickly Down Under, ” if not fast forward to the end, just cause I dont use them on camera, DAMN sure dont mean I dont know how to use them . Its how I started . 40 couple years ago .

- CharlesNeil

Well said Charles.

Woodworking nous is being able to use ALL our tools when needed.

This link is to my bench, built when I was 65 in 6 working days. The only handwork is the mortise in the leg vise.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/92062

I also build archtop instruments and flat top guitars and it’s very hard to get out doing hand work building these things.

Process is all well and good ( I enjoy the ride ) but for me, like craftsmen from days of yore, I like to work quickly, efficiently and well.

-- Mama calls me Texcaster but my real name is Mr. Earl.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3706 days


#29 posted 08-19-2015 10:15 PM

Woodust, .. yep , context often means alot. Later all

View RBWoodworker's profile

RBWoodworker

441 posts in 3188 days


#30 posted 08-19-2015 10:21 PM

Oh HECK YES I want to see a challenge between you two.. oh yea.. I agree..anyone who is going to call into question a person’s ability if a craftsman, needs to be ready to back up their comments with a challenge.. it’s like the man said..put up..or shut up.. take your pick

-- Randall Child http://www.racfurniture.com/

View Jeff_F's profile

Jeff_F

36 posts in 2988 days


#31 posted 08-19-2015 10:25 PM

I would agree with Adrock1 that it is the end product that defines the skill (craftsmanship) of the woodworker. This thread started with a mention of dovetails…well, I’ve seen gaps in dovetails that were hand cut as well as machine cut. It is the skill of the woodworker that defines how the end product looks, not the tools that are being used. I know a couple of extremely skilled woodworkers, one who has some pieces in the White House, that use a powered planer to do 99% of the milling on a board and then finish it off with a hand plane. Does this make them less of a craftsman?...I don’t think so.

When I first look at a piece of furniture, whether it is 200 years old or brand new, what tools were used isn’t high on my list of initial thoughts. Sure, once I get down to designing a piece or during actual construction I need to worry about tooling,,,eg; mortise & tenon vs dowels vs dominos, but that is just technique and doesn’t define what the final product is going to look like. Someone mentioned Sam Maloof and I think everyone would consider him a fine craftsman but how many people would cut chair legs freehand on a bandsaw like he did?

So, to me craftsmanship and being a craftsman isn’t defined by the ability to ‘dial in that plane’ or ‘dial in that tablesaw cut’...it is defined by the uniform gap around an inset door or drawer, a gapless dovetail, an interesting or unique design, the use of sliding dovetails in a rail and stile assembly, a fine finish, etc.

-- Jeff, www.jeffswooddesigns.com

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cabmaker

1621 posts in 2645 days


#32 posted 08-19-2015 10:25 PM

Don’t let it get to you Charles….......I saw a long time ago that pro and hobbyists are parallel worlds with a large space in between.

Looks like this thread was started by someone that does not even have the credentials to make such an analogy.

JB

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Sandra

7176 posts in 1911 days


#33 posted 08-19-2015 10:45 PM

Wow,

I don’t often take the bait and comment on threads such as these but I cannot resist.
Pezking (Dan) said what I was thinking.

If we’re looking at the ‘true sense of the word’ I’ll never be a craftsman then. My plumbing is wrong.

Charles Neil has been one of the many LJs who has generously helped me as a beginning woodworker. I would have a beer with him anytime. But wait, if I don’t brew it and bottle it myself, am I still a beer drinker??

-- No, I don't want to buy the pink hammer.

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IHRedRules

112 posts in 1312 days


#34 posted 08-19-2015 11:50 PM

I think we need to start with the definition of craftsman then. I personally think a craftsman speaks more to the person’s finished product than the tools they use to make it. I think a certain group of woodworkers tend to think that you can only be a true craftsman if you exclusively use hand tools. If we extend that philosophy out across all trades, then there must not be a single craftsman on this planet, since we are all using newer technology than someone, say, 1,000 years ago, since the most extreme of these folks think that only using the oldest hand-made hand tools make a craftsman.

To another extent, I’ve seen Roy Underhill have some not so stellar looking pieces with hand tools, and I have seen Norm Abram produce some stunning pieces with power tools. Regardless, they are both great craftsman, that could whoop my butt with one arm tied behind their back and only a pocket knife for their tool.

View bonesbr549's profile

bonesbr549

1445 posts in 2903 days


#35 posted 08-20-2015 12:40 AM

Threads a real piece of work.

He’s a craftsman and a teacher.

As we would say where I’m from….. Well bless your hearts.

-- Sooner or later Liberals run out of other people's money.

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Rustic

3253 posts in 3432 days


#36 posted 08-20-2015 12:42 AM

Just my 2 cents…but we (as woodworkers, no matter the skill level) are Craftsmen. I don’t feel that there is truly any criteria for defining a woodworker as a craftsman.

-- www.carvingandturningsbyrick.com, Rick Kruse, Grand Rapids, MI

View johnstoneb's profile

johnstoneb

2639 posts in 2008 days


#37 posted 08-20-2015 12:49 AM

Full Definition of CRAFTSMAN

: a worker who practices a trade or handicraft

-- Bruce, Boise, ID

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

18620 posts in 2519 days


#38 posted 08-20-2015 12:54 AM



I went to look at that episode, and would have to agree about the dovetails.

There not the tightest, and I doubt that a craftsman would have to cut thin strips to cram into the cracks, but I m sure it was just do to making a video and that if he had to he probably could make a nice one had he taken the time.

Remember, in the video he says, ” it s just woodworking 101”,
Probably would not be in the “high end fine furniture” videos. :)

- woodust


Let’s put mine up against that one, shall we?

This is how mine looked, just after they’d been made, however…after a tune-up with a few HAND TOOLS

This little box doesn’t look all that bad….and, I am no where near what Charles could do….

Just ask the OP…..

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

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bigblockyeti

4697 posts in 1556 days


#39 posted 08-20-2015 12:55 AM

Norm was identified as a Master Craftsman, I don’t know by what authority he met that criteria, but anyone who’s been watching him over the last 30+ years surely wouldn’t deny him that title.

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Richard

1912 posts in 2526 days


#40 posted 08-20-2015 01:06 AM



Norm was identified as a Master Craftsman, I don t know by what authority he met that criteria, but anyone who s been watching him over the last 30+ years surely wouldn t deny him that title.

- bigblockyeti


I think they listed Norm as a Master Carpenter but I would also agree to Tagging on the Craftsman title as well.
And I would LOVE to be HALF the Craftsman that Charles is.

Now how much are Tickets to the Build Off between the OP and Charles and where and when is it going to be held. I need to put in my Vacation request and get my plane tickets in order.

View Rick_M's profile

Rick_M

10619 posts in 2216 days


#41 posted 08-20-2015 01:11 AM

I thought Norm was a master carpenter. In any case, I’ve never heard of Charles Neil outside LJ and I think the OP seems too obsessed with the guy. We should look to our own craftsmanship before worrying about others.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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Richard

1912 posts in 2526 days


#42 posted 08-20-2015 01:13 AM



Just my 2 cents…but we (as woodworkers, no matter the skill level) are Craftsmen. I don t feel that there is truly any criteria for defining a woodworker as a craftsman.

- Rustic


Full Definition of CRAFTSMAN

: a worker who practices a trade or handicraft

- johnstoneb


Just like Doctors , Mine has been Practicing Medicine for 40 years and some day he may get good at it.

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TheFridge

8301 posts in 1322 days


#43 posted 08-20-2015 01:37 AM

Nothing like a little Summer’s Eve by RWE to freshen up the forums.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Sandra's profile

Sandra

7176 posts in 1911 days


#44 posted 08-20-2015 02:05 AM

And the prize goes to TheFridge. I choked on my drink from laughing….

-- No, I don't want to buy the pink hammer.

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TheFridge

8301 posts in 1322 days


#45 posted 08-20-2015 02:24 AM



And the prize goes to TheFridge. I choked on my drink from laughing….

- Sandra

I do my best to keep it pg13 so I don’t get booted :)

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

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RobS888

2316 posts in 1681 days


#46 posted 08-20-2015 02:38 AM



I thought Norm was a master carpenter. In any case, I ve never heard of Charles Neil outside LJ and I think the OP seems too obsessed with the guy. We should look to our own craftsmanship before worrying about others.

- Rick M.


I saw dozens of his videos on Woodcraft.com before I ever heard of LumberJocks.

This thread seems to be quite the shot at Charles and I think he is handling it well. The rest of you that think he might be sensitive should go back and reread the first post again and imagine yourself in his place.

-- I always suspected many gun nuts were afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

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NinjaAssassin

629 posts in 1560 days


#47 posted 08-20-2015 03:24 AM

Well, looking at the definition of craftsman and the context of the words within the definition, it seems if you’re not making something by hand you’re not a craftsman.

If you use machines to do all of the your dimensioning, shaping, joinery, etc. then you’re a machinist. If you use manual/tradition hand work to dimension, shape, join, etc. then you’re a craftsman. If you use a combination of machines and manual/traditional hand work to do those things, then you’re a combination of both. Machinists and craftsman require different skill sets and knowledge to work wood (with some overlap) and those who practice both require both skill sets.

My question is, who cares? Exercising creativity and skill in order to create something by hand, by machine, or some combination of the two is a wonderful thing. Getting hung up on whether someone strictly qualifies as a craftsman is much ado about nothing. Don’t get me wrong, calling someone out like that is tactless and rude. But honestly, is this really a controversy? Charles produces some beautiful work and makes a living doing something I assume he loves. Does it really matter if he strictly qualifies as a “craftsman” per the traditional understanding of the word.

TL;DR – Drama drama drama. Forget all this nonsense. Let’s build stuff the way each of us individually enjoys, share the creative process and the end product of our labor with each other, and stop focusing on which subgroup of woodworking someone falls into.

-- - Billy

View Monte Pittman's profile

Monte Pittman

27063 posts in 2174 days


#48 posted 08-20-2015 04:51 AM

I can’t imagine not calling Charles Neil a craftsman. Just because he is known well for his finishing techniques (oh by the way, finishing is a HUGE part of woodworking) he is a very skilled woodworker. I would be very proud to be at his level some day.

Note, Charles did not tell me to say this. :-)

-- Mother Nature created it, I just assemble it.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4756 posts in 2329 days


#49 posted 08-20-2015 11:36 AM

I would like to see the project be an original design, I mean any “CRAFTSMAN” should be able to design as well .

- CharlesNeil

I don’t agree with that. While I’m fairly proficient with woodworking tools (dare I say “Craftsman”) I haven’t a creative bone on my body…I go absolutely brain dead when asked to design something. But show me a picture (that’s all I need) and i can usually do it justice. Often I can come up with what I see as improvements. Just saying….

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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bearkatwood

1403 posts in 847 days


#50 posted 08-20-2015 11:53 AM

Try this, go in your shop and set up your camcorder. Then make and explain a simple dovetailed box. Then go in your living room and cuss yourself as you watch. Trust me, you will. Even Underhill gets a bit shaky with a plane sometimes. Have you ever looked back at the years of video where he was covered in blood, yet we cal him St. Roy. In my opinion a craftsman is someone who can take the mundane task of creating a utilitarian piece and make it art. I wholeheartedly disagree with Richard Sennett’s broad application of the term, no a janitor or doctor are not craftsman. Break the word down; Crafts man. Does this make you think of anyone, but someone with a tool or brush in there hand? Like you said Charles isn’t afraid to show his mistakes and my applause to all those who have helped spurn on a new generation of “craftsmen” by showing what they know, we must always accept that gift graciously and know that if we had the world staring at us we would be ripped into pieces.
Good thread. Thanks

-- Brian Noel

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