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View moke's profile

Earlex issues

by moke
posted 08-18-2015 06:06 PM


25 replies so far

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

3992 posts in 1913 days


#1 posted 08-18-2015 06:16 PM

Water base finishes are usually more difficult to sand even especially if you don’t allow for 3-10 days drying time before the final coat. After sanding the material evenly, the last coat should be heavy enough to create a thick coat without causing runs. This will prevent the finish from looking like spackles from the spray.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View moke's profile

moke

1240 posts in 2921 days


#2 posted 08-18-2015 06:38 PM

After I sanded it, I thought it looked really good…...I did sand it by hand, should I have used a 1/4 sheet sander or even a ROS? It was a thick coat…they were oak boards laying down….I am wrapping a pole in my basement. Is it possible for it to be too thick? I thought since there was no chance of running….why not?

So just to be clear, I should wait three days before sanding?
Mike

-- Mike

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

3992 posts in 1913 days


#3 posted 08-18-2015 06:48 PM

Yes, Mike. I think maybe the first coat didn’t dry all the way before you sprayed the second and this causes the finish to dry even slower. The best bet is to wet sand it after it dries. If you sand it dry and don’t get a fine white powder, then it is not ready for sanding. It should feel like you are sanding a nice dry board. Otherwise, it is not ready yet. I saw a video with Charles Neil and I think he waited a week to 10 days before he wet sanded a countertop. I’ll see if I can find the Youtube video for you.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View firefighterontheside's profile

firefighterontheside

19061 posts in 2002 days


#4 posted 08-18-2015 06:49 PM

What finish are you using. For waterborne I usually use minwax polycrylic. I don’t thin it at all and use the 1.5 tip in my 5500. I assume you did not shake the mixture. I don’t think sanding within three days is the issue. Are you using a 1.5 tip? It comes standard with a 2.0 tip and that is not best for finishing. Rather the 2.0 is better for painting.

-- Bill M. "People change, walnut doesn't" by Gene.

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

3992 posts in 1913 days


#5 posted 08-18-2015 06:51 PM

Here is one of many.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

3992 posts in 1913 days


#6 posted 08-18-2015 06:55 PM

Here is part 1 of sanding poly.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View Drew's profile

Drew

350 posts in 3245 days


#7 posted 08-18-2015 07:07 PM

3 days? No way.
I spray 3-4 coats in a day every week, hundreds of tables, sanded between most coats with 320 or even 220.
You don’t need to wait 3 days.

To be able to help we really need to know what finish you were shooting, but I do have a few suggestions.

First, never use a tack rag. You should use a 50/50 mix of denatured alcohol and water.

You are probably not getting good atomization. It’s hard to push WB with a small turbine.

The way I like to lay down WB is a lite coat first, then a medium followed by a heavy coat. Last coat really needs to be on the heavy side (depending on what you shoot).
Avoid that last “extra” coat. This usually causes issues like this with WB.

-- TruCraftFurniture.com

View OggieOglethorpe's profile

OggieOglethorpe

1276 posts in 2255 days


#8 posted 08-18-2015 07:32 PM

Tack cloths are not compatible with most WB finishes. The alcohol mix ^^^ works fine, as do clean microfiber dusting cloths. What you are seeing may be small fisheyes, not bubbles. It’s perfectly normal to apply several coats in a single day with better quality products, like ML Cambell or General Finishes products.

Here’s an example of a good product info sheet: http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=MLC&doctype=PDS&prodno=035777776926&lang=2

See if you can get one for the product you’re using.

Also, many WB, as well as catalyzing solvent finishes have a maximum dry finish thickness before they go wonky. It’s common for beginners to apply too many or too thick coats. ML Campbell lists the wet and dry coat thicknesses in mils, I’ve used the same numbers with General Finishes products with excellent results. It’s not Plastidip… ;^)

I like to do a relatively wet coats, sanding the first (sealing coat) with 220 . My original WB training was by an ML Campbell rep. Doing a very light “tack” coat as you’d do with solvent lacquer never worked well for me.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5095 posts in 2638 days


#9 posted 08-18-2015 09:33 PM

I agree the waiting of 3 days isn’t needed. A couple of thoughts: if they are air bubbles, they may have been trapped buy the finish not letting itself flow out (dried too fast). If true, Floetrol would help with that. But if it’s fish eyes (go through your tack cloths in the fire, and write I will never buy tack cloths again 10000 times on the blackboard) you may have contaminated the surface somehow. Someone else mentioned it: if you sand and get white dust, your good to go. True enough, it may take a waterborne some number of days to fully cure, but it’s workable very quickly.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View moke's profile

moke

1240 posts in 2921 days


#10 posted 08-19-2015 02:01 PM

You know I have used tack cloths for years and NEVER liked them. I never heard they can cause issues…I wondered though, if they put the same crap on the wood that they do on your hands, that would be bad. I was taught to use them by the man that mentored me, and I never really questioned it.

The material I used was Minwax waterbased Poly for the first three coats and Rustoleum water based Poly on the last one. When I sanded it did not create dust, but I didn’t really take much off. And I did shake the can….whoops…I just did it without even thinking.

From the sounds of it…it is wonder I got as good of a finish I did!!!

Thanks to everyone for the help,
Obviously I needed it…....
Mike

PS—I have several needles—-I used 1.5

-- Mike

View firefighterontheside's profile

firefighterontheside

19061 posts in 2002 days


#11 posted 08-19-2015 02:27 PM

Are they both the true water based poly or is one what min wax calls oil modified? I believe the latter may not be water thinnable. I’d have to check that though. From what I’ve seen the water based stuff says water clean up and the other stuff says soap and water clean up.

-- Bill M. "People change, walnut doesn't" by Gene.

View Earlextech's profile

Earlextech

1162 posts in 2836 days


#12 posted 08-19-2015 02:27 PM

I’m here if you need me. But I think everyone has covered it already.
Tack cloth – never with water based finishes, use a water dampened rag
Floetrol – not a thinner, water is the thinner
Stir gently, never shake a can of finish
Use the 1.5mm needle
Spray from about 6” from the project

-- Sam Hamory - The project is never finished until its "Finished"!

View moke's profile

moke

1240 posts in 2921 days


#13 posted 08-19-2015 02:49 PM

I just bought waterbased Poly….I had no criteria….the Rustoleum, I had actually used to brush on many times.
Can anyone recommend a water-based finish that I can buy at a big box store….while I understand ther are probably better finishes around, I will probably still buy at Lowes, Home Depot, or Menards….they are right here.
Thanks
Mike

-- Mike

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

3992 posts in 1913 days


#14 posted 08-19-2015 02:59 PM

I think they have a few brand of water poly at HD including minwax. I’ve never used the minwax but my wife use it all the time.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View firefighterontheside's profile

firefighterontheside

19061 posts in 2002 days


#15 posted 08-19-2015 06:05 PM

I have heard that it’s is soft, but I really like minwax polycrylic. It is water based, dries fast and I can spray it with my 5500 without thinning. I’ve had great results with it. Many places only have it in quart cans, but it can be found in a gallon. I believe HD and Lowes both have it.

-- Bill M. "People change, walnut doesn't" by Gene.

View OggieOglethorpe's profile

OggieOglethorpe

1276 posts in 2255 days


#16 posted 08-19-2015 06:22 PM

The material I used was Minwax waterbased Poly for the first three coats and Rustoleum water based Poly on the last one.

Just a note…

Mixing brands of finishing products is never a good idea unless you’ve thoroughly tested the combination on something you don’t care about. In the industry, this is known as “systemizing”. The two products may be similar, but small details in formula differences can destroy your work. The destruction may happen during application, or it may happen months from now as the chemistry completely cures.

View moke's profile

moke

1240 posts in 2921 days


#17 posted 08-21-2015 04:37 PM

Thanks to everyone for your help…I sanded and sprayed it again last evening, and got a great finish, thanks to the advice I got.

I just have one more question….the screw control on the back that regulates the amount of material. I get that if you spray too much material it just runs, and not enough you get orange peel, but is there a rule of thumb to start with so I don’t have to experiment? Like just say screw it in all the way and back out 5 turns or something like that…just a starting point. I have been practicing on cardboard….that is what happened to a lot of the first can of Minwax.

Thanks again to everyone that has taken the time to help…
Mike

-- Mike

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5095 posts in 2638 days


#18 posted 08-21-2015 04:52 PM

Every set up is different, but what you described is what I do. (never 5 turns on mine, usually closer to 2 or so). I keep notes of what I do in terms of gun setup with different finishes, as well as the viscosity (using a #4 Ford cup). Then use that as a starting point and adjust from there. You also have to consider which needle set you have installed, I only have 2 sizes so that’s not much of a deal. On oner gun I had to scratch a marker into the end of that cap to keep track the turns.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

3992 posts in 1913 days


#19 posted 08-21-2015 04:52 PM

There should be two screws. One in the back that controls the lever movement and one on the side that controls the concentration (width of spray). I like to have as much movement as I can get on the lever since I can control that manually somewhat. The concentration screw I put somewhere in the middle. If the span is too much, you waste a lot of material in the air and may have to run your lines a few times to get a uniform application. If it is too concentrated, you risk run as you overlap each application. Off course the distance at which you hold the gun to the project makes a big difference. Cardboard is an excellent medium to practice on. You can use water for practice since it is thinner than most of what you spray. If you can spray water on it without drips, you have mastered the gun IMHO.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View firefighterontheside's profile

firefighterontheside

19061 posts in 2002 days


#20 posted 08-21-2015 04:53 PM

I don’t have a rule for that Mike. I screw it in and pull the trigger with it turned off. What the screw does is limit how far back you can pull the trigger. Try and remember how far the trigger pulls in normal use and shoot for that as a starting point. Then I will either shoot a piece of scrap or even the back side of the puece that will never be seen to dial it in. Someone else may have a different idea. It also can depend on the viscosity of the material you’re shooting. When shooting stain you will really need to crank it in. For something thicker you will need it more open.

-- Bill M. "People change, walnut doesn't" by Gene.

View Earlextech's profile

Earlextech

1162 posts in 2836 days


#21 posted 08-21-2015 05:03 PM

Here is the rule.
Maximum output with minimal spit.
The 5500 air flow is a constant, you have no control over it. You only control the amount of fluid that you put into the airflow. Too much fluid can overwhelm the airflow. In that case it will atomize as much as it can and it will spit the rest out. Spit will almost always dry as orange peel.

-- Sam Hamory - The project is never finished until its "Finished"!

View moke's profile

moke

1240 posts in 2921 days


#22 posted 09-09-2015 05:14 PM

Follow up:
I want to thank every one for all your suggestions and encouragement…..

I have now successfully finished three other projects with Minwax Water based Poly with awesome results in a fraction of the time that is used to take me with coat after coat of wipe on Poly. All the projects are smooth and nice. One of the projects is even a respray of some floating shelves that I had sprayed with water borne minwax from a can. The Earlex is quick and easy….I had another old gun laying around and the cup fits so I have it filled with water so I can spray it through while waiting for the other coat to dry.

I have been a photographer since Moses had short hair, and we sprayed our photos for years with just cans, so I am very experienced with spraying. Photo laquer cans were very high quality and rarely had issues but the last 10 years we have run our photographs through a water based coating machine.

With the Earlex, since I began this post , the things I have changed are, I am not thinning it at all…I am putting on thinner coats, and using the 1.5 needle. I have disposed of the 20 tac rags I have laying around and I am using the blue paper towels and 50-50 DNA/water to clean the piece.
I have previously been using Naptha after sanding before staining, to look at the sanding for imperfections…..I am assuming that would be ok to use 50/50 for cleaning too.

Thanks again to everyone that helped me with this….it is so much easier and I almost like finishing now!!!
Mike

-- Mike

View firefighterontheside's profile

firefighterontheside

19061 posts in 2002 days


#23 posted 09-09-2015 05:21 PM

Sounds good Mike. I feel the same way, I almost like finishing with mine. ;-))

-- Bill M. "People change, walnut doesn't" by Gene.

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5757 posts in 2958 days


#24 posted 09-09-2015 06:00 PM

Glad you found success. I have always disliked tack cloth. However, cheese cloth is fantastic for cleaning
projects before finishing. No residue at all, it just looks like mesh fabric. Cheese cloth is available at most hardware stores.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

4506 posts in 2454 days


#25 posted 09-09-2015 08:09 PM

Good to see a happy ending.

I’m surprised you never heard about tack cloth. I have read that an number of times through the years.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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