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Current market for everyone

by 4hisglory
posted 01-08-2009 03:39 AM


37 replies so far

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John Ormsby

1281 posts in 2433 days


#1 posted 01-08-2009 04:08 AM

We have the same problem here in the LEFT COAST. This state is extremely anti small business. Every small business person I have talked to in the past six months has reduced employees by at least 50 percent. They just cannot afford to pay the high overhead. The jobs are becoming more sporadic and there does not seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel. Most people are flat out hunkered down and saving what they can. I am still busy but never know when things will dry up. Maybe the new Messiah being sworn in soon will save us all. LOL!!!

-- Oldworld, Fair Oaks, Ca

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Dusty56

11665 posts in 2384 days


#2 posted 01-08-2009 04:23 AM

I lost my job back in October due to the economy . I was working at a small custom cabinet and millwork shop about 15 minutes from home for about 3 months when the well dried up….I feel your pain , but from the employees side of the coin instead . Still looking for work : ( .......Come on January 20th 2009 !!!

-- I'm absolutely positive that I couldn't be more uncertain!

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kolwdwrkr

2821 posts in 2286 days


#3 posted 01-08-2009 04:43 AM

I’m on the LEFT COAST as well and owned and opporated a small custom woodworking shop. I just shut it down and am filing bankruptcy. I’ve been told by some savvy people that this problem is going to be ongoing for quite some time and a new messiah isn’t going to help much. It will get worse before it gets better. Now I need to find a job. I hope it’s not as difficult as it’s been for Dusy. Sorry man. Keep your head up, you’ll find work.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

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RAH

414 posts in 2573 days


#4 posted 01-08-2009 05:19 AM

I’m on the left coast also, central valley California. Been so for over a year now I let go of 7 employees awhile back, put my tool bet back on and have just one employee to keep from killing myself physically. I would like to know when it has hit different areas, when did it first hit you?

-- Ron Central, CA

View 4hisglory's profile

4hisglory

73 posts in 2146 days


#5 posted 01-08-2009 06:27 AM

I started noticing a decrease in customer inquiries around fall of 2007. The summer of 08 wasn’t really to bad but this winter has really really been noticeable. Do you think we’ll see an increase with spring and the low interest rates? I foresee many people re-financing their homes to consolidate debt which could help the country out as a whole. For we craftsman that could interpret to at least a short and possibly long term boost in business. I am praying whole heartedly. I’m just surprised its still so slow after the new year. Most years it picks up really quick after the holidays are past.

-- 3rd generation craftsman ~ www.passionforwoodworking.com

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dennis mitchell

3994 posts in 3010 days


#6 posted 01-08-2009 06:49 AM

Ya I sure have seen it slow down. I’ve always seemed to have had at least one project on the horizon. Most of the time I had to turn down work. Now I don’t have anything lined up. If this keeps up I might even have to look for work….ughhh

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Thos. Angle

4437 posts in 2658 days


#7 posted 01-08-2009 04:32 PM

You can’t afford to have employees in Oregon unless you are really doing business. I don’t know what will come up when I finish the project I’m working on. I assume something will. As someone said there are still 90% of the people working. I guess I need to run down and spend some time with Dennis. Maybe we can dream up something. Carleen and I are intending to go back to Yellowstone Outfitters for the summer and fall. Hopefully they won’t have to many cancelations. 6 months work beats no work and with both of us working we can get by. I been looking for work since the first of November. Never got called for an interview. I think it is my age(62) Why hire and old fart when there are 57 young guys wanting to work.

-- Thos. Angle, Jordan Valley, Oregon

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DrDirt

2503 posts in 2438 days


#8 posted 01-08-2009 05:04 PM

I am here in the midwest – and it really seems to be a trickle down, in that there is a wait and see approach.
And once ‘everyone’ is holding off purchases we all grind to a halt.
If people are worried that they might be shown the door Friday morning – they are very reluctant to Gut a kitchen in a house they could have to short sell.
So all these big projects move to the “Maybe next month/quarter/year when things settle down” pile. The upside is that as the recovery begins, there will be a lot of pent up demand for those services that will flood at once.
I am more afraid that the new Obama administration will make California and Oregon look ‘pro’ small business by comparison. The mandates on Social Security, Insurance, and benefits I think will be absolutely crushing. I see more operators of solid businesses with 4-5 people following Ron’s example, and letting all but 1 or 2 go and taking on the work personally just to survive.
Personally I see at least 18 months before anything might be measurably better – and people loosening their purse strings again. The home refinance move and debt consolidation could work also – but the attractive rates have much stricter terms to qualify…so again 1 year plus before things really change.

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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4hisglory

73 posts in 2146 days


#9 posted 01-08-2009 05:23 PM

The local state Unions here in NY are pushing for a millionaire tax right now. I don’t understand how they can still not realize that its those same millionaires that pay most of our tax bill, and those same millionaires that own these companies that provide the high paying jobs that in turn provide me with customers. Part of the reason NYS is in such a steep financial free fall is because we lost a large number of our top tax bracket to other states and to the wall street collapse. If they push more out things are going to get so much worse…... Like I said.. I’m really considering relocating. I hear the rebuild efforts down south are still going strong and work is plentiful there. Any southerners that can share some wisdom on that?

-- 3rd generation craftsman ~ www.passionforwoodworking.com

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RAH

414 posts in 2573 days


#10 posted 01-10-2009 04:09 PM

l was from the Real Estate industry and when it slowed down so did my work load. Out of the seven that left one is now a correctional officer working for the state prison system, another is going through the academy to become a California Highway Patrolman. Two others secured jobs in the same industry (roofing) with larger companies in the commercial industry working longer hours traveling farther, however making a larger income than I could have paid them. Another is taking advantage of his GI bill to go back to school. One is the one I rehired and the other I have not kept in touch.

All of them are working, there are jobs in different fields available. They haven’t increased the unemployment figures. I didn’t want to leave the impression that these seven where sitting around and not able to find work.

-- Ron Central, CA

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snowdog

1132 posts in 2678 days


#11 posted 01-10-2009 04:27 PM

We can only hope that Americans will see that taxing, big gov, and spending is not a way to fix things bail out are just another way to control people. I have given up hope on real change. It is very depressing these days to see the direction we are headed but maybe after 4 years (probably 8) of more tax and gov programs the “right” will wake up and get back to what makes business run better. But that would mean all would have to stop pandering and that seems like it will never happen.

Torches and Pitchforks are all politicians seem to understand anymore. Btu no one has the stomach for revolution, we are all to fat and happy. That sure is changing fast, not so fat and not so happy anymore. Maybe change is coming and we just have not started the fires yet.

-- "so much to learn and so little time"..

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miles125

2179 posts in 2701 days


#12 posted 01-10-2009 04:35 PM

I make my modest living off of rich people and they are running scared. Like who the hell else can afford a front door with 100 man hours in it anyway? This childlike resentment and punishment of the wealthy throughout this country is about to put us all in soup lines. I can’t even watch the news any more for this relentless view being spewed out of supposedly educated politicians mouths.

We don’t have an economic problem. We have a problem with too many citizens in grown up bodies and the maturity of a 9 year old brat.

-- "The way to make a small fortune in woodworking- start with a large one"

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David Freed

97 posts in 2363 days


#13 posted 01-11-2009 09:20 PM

“We don’t have an economic problem. We have a problem with too many citizens in grown up bodies and the maturity of a 9 year old brat.”

I totally agree.

-- David, Southern Indiana

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Loren

7743 posts in 2344 days


#14 posted 01-11-2009 10:23 PM

There is great opportunity in this market right now. It’s not in
custom luxury goods which depreciate in value, like woodworking.

I enjoy doing woodworking but I wouldn’t recommend now
as a good time to be getting into it professionally.

I wrote a 62 page report about how to make money in a recession.
I’ve been distributing it online with good results. That’s a plug
I guess but since I’ve been making money online since ‘99
I can say a thing or two about the topic. The problem for many
people is that their local economies aren’t buying what they are
selling. To make money under such conditions you have to
sell something else or sell outside your local area – basically go
where the buyers are in some way.

If anybody wants to read it send me a message and I’ll get it to you.

-- http://lawoodworking.com

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Catspaw

236 posts in 2511 days


#15 posted 01-12-2009 12:09 AM

I’m on the center coast (midwest). I’ve stated in other threads that I(we) have been fortunate that the boss has aligned us with very rich people. It’s worked so far, but the bad stuff has started to show up. Our current project is the only one in the que due to some “postponements”. When it’s done this month there is nothing else.

We have prospects for things in the future, but, you know….

Our most recent prospecting has led us overseas….mainly Dubai and Russia. If you listen to the sales pitch it sounds very lucrative…...but, as I always say, I don’t beleive anything until the check clears.

I’m lucky in that I can productively use some down time …...but, only some (I’m debt free and have cash in the bank and I’ve positioned myself for a somewhat homesteading, almost-off-the-grid lifestyle). So far the boss hasn’t failed to come up with something.

The economy has certainly got my attention.

-- arborial reconfiguration specialist

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closetguy

744 posts in 2588 days


#16 posted 01-12-2009 03:21 AM

Well, down here in Georgia, it is just about as bad as everywhere else. My sales were down 50%. People are still spending money, just not as much of it. I am fortunate that I have built a large customer base over the past 7 years and most all my business in 2008 was repeat and/or referrals. Leads are off by half and closure rates are dismal. December was my best month with a few repeat customers buying new homes. Surprisingly, January is looking good also.

I no longer watch the news. It’s too depressing and I hate listening the the press capitalizing on the doom and gloom.

-- I don't make mistakes, only design changes....www.dgmwoodworks.com

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kiwi1969

609 posts in 2138 days


#17 posted 01-16-2009 03:57 PM

when america sneezes we all catch a cold. Here in the philippines its much the same story. So many filipinos live in the U.S and send money back to families here but it seems they aren,t sending as much because the lead up to xmas was dead flat for furniture sales. theres been a good number of small cabinet shops disappear here although the koreans and japanese are still spending.

-- if the hand is not working it is not a pure hand

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Moron

4666 posts in 2589 days


#18 posted 01-16-2009 05:14 PM

I live, eat, and sleep, business. There is no “off” switch and its kinda like having a one day old baby attached to me. I wake up and think about work, I work all day and into the evening and even when I quit physically working the mental aspect just keeps going and going.

Back when all my friends went and got jobs, took home a nice salary, bought houses and TV’s, and had nice cars, I lived in a one bedroom apartment with a wife and two babies, I drove a broken down jalopy and worked endlessly. When my friends went out for dinner, to the theater I stayed and worked. I worked my week-ends and gave up holidays. When I finally saved enough money to buy a house for my family I chose to buy an edgebander instead. I have sacrificed a lot to get where I am now and notice that everyone is screaming about their jobs, their mortgage they couldnt afford and the TV they bought on a program “Dont pay until ?.

Having had employees where I had to match their contributions to their pensions (I dont get one) and pay twice what they pay into unemployement insurance (I dont get that either) and then pay for their workmens compansation contributions, then pay federal sales tax, provincial sales tax, income tax, property tax, business tax, corporate tax….............I’m taxed to death.

Now I hear that the feds are going to give tax breaks to those I paid taxes for. No tax break for me, for my business, just a break for those who took the week-ends off, bought boats and cottages and live in homes they couldnt afford in the first place. The same employees who left for a better job and the same employees who I piad their child support arrears are the same ones banging on my door for another shot at a job, when they walked away without so much as a thank you.

I’m pissed that the banks are being bailed out and the banks are (required by law) to pay fat compensation cheques to employees and executives. I’m pissed that governments and allthe government cronies get all the religous christian holidays but the working man doesnt yet they are the same ones who will net let the lords prayer be read aloud in a classroom. I’m pissed that they get indexed pensions and when the economy goes for a crap…...........they go on strike. This isnt a “new” relevation for me, I’ve been pissed for some time now, like decades.

I’m also pissed when I do a project for a contractor who says I’ll pay you next week, then doesnt because he decided to pay a painter to paint his house or put in a new furnace or bought a giant plasma TV. Grrrrrr, and then to have to smile and say “no problem, pay when you get some money”.

I watched the news last night and they did a segment on “how to find a job in tough times” which equated to the medical field, teaching, colleges and universities, and yes, the good old federal and provincial governments….............which BTW, are all payed for by the tax payer and if the taxpayer isnt working then how can they increase the size of already bloated bureuacracy.

I read about this recesion and often wonder….........when did end, cause I’ve had a frugal life all my life cause I never had money to waste. Was there a “BOOM” time because I must have missed it

If it makes anyone feel any better…..............Canadians are taxed to death. I think its almost 6 months of paying nothing but tax,before the first dollar you make, you can keep. .......and again, they want to give tax breaks to all the wrong groups. How about a governement grant for me instead of a study on how lesbian couples produce better children, perhaps I could take that grant money and teach a kid my trade instead of dumping thousands of dollars of my own hard earned money to train a kid who quits at the first misguided thought of a better job elsewhere that leads nowhere. How about a grant a tax break so that I can expand my shop ?

Sometimes I think that for Doctors and if they had a choice on who to perform surgery on, they should pick a politician because when you open them up, they have no guts, no balls, no spine, no brain and their head and a$$ are interchangable…..........................and when they dont get their own way, they decide to have another election?..............what a great idea????

I constantly remind myself that I have it pretty good. I dont fear for my life when I sleep, I have food in the fridge and a roof over my head, I dont live in the Gaza strip or a garbage dump in Guatamaula. I have friends whom I enjoy their company and family that I love and laugh with. I dont look at problems that will beat me down, I look at them as a challenge, some thing I can do, that I can conquer. I am not sad that I have to work on a Friday night, or a Sunday morning or Monday morning, quite the contrary and I have always been uncomfortable around people who do complain about having to work “overtime”............and wondered what the &%$# makes you so special?. I dont ever walk into a supplier and boost nor do I complain, I try and make them laugh, I try and help them solve their problems.

People talk about their retirement. My father has been happily retired for more then 20 years and I’m happy for him as I would have had nothing without him but I have always known that as for retirement….......mine will never come until I’m under the grass.

And to answer your question. I have work but most shops in this next of the woods are slowing down bigtime.

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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4hisglory

73 posts in 2146 days


#19 posted 01-16-2009 07:17 PM

Hats off to you Roman. I couldn’t agree more. Thanks for the passionate post. Things are slowing down but I have to nod in agreement that we do have it a lot better than many. What some would define as poor, we define as wealthy. I can pay my mortgage, and feed my family. Thats what counts in the end.

-- 3rd generation craftsman ~ www.passionforwoodworking.com

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DannyBoy

521 posts in 2561 days


#20 posted 01-17-2009 12:18 AM

My five year plan changes everyday… Mostly because me and mine are the only one who put stock in it…

~DB

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

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Brad_Nailor

2531 posts in 2653 days


#21 posted 01-17-2009 12:54 AM

Are you kidding me Miles? You don’t think that the rich in this country have had anything to do with the economic downturn? How about all the greedy rich brokers and bankers and politicians that perpetuated one of the biggest scams in a decade , that helped plunge this country into a depression (ya I would call it that)? You really don’t think that there is a economic crisis, it’s just a bunch of poor people whining? Should we all stick our heads in the sand like an ostrich, and pretend that there isn’t a crisis, and if there is that it’s certainly not the peoples fault that have all the control over the money, just to benefit your bottom line? Maybe you should have diversified your business model to include people other than the wealthy. Count me in as a whiner..and while your at it I will be an accuser, a finger pointer, and I will judge people like that harshly. Bernie Madof should be in a jail cell right now being violated by a large inmate, not sitting in his million dollar condo.

-- http://www.facebook.com/pages/DSO-Designs/297237806954248

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pommy

1697 posts in 2387 days


#22 posted 01-17-2009 01:23 AM

This might start a war but i’ll say it anyway just 3days to go untill the world becomes a safer place in things might change for the better for everyone with obama being president and that other prat bush is out

sorry if i offend anyone but this is my oppinion

andy aka pommy

-- cut it saw it scrap it SKPE: ANDREW.CARTER69

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4hisglory

73 posts in 2146 days


#23 posted 01-17-2009 01:33 AM

no war intended :) I would simply like to know how the woodworking economy is doing throughout the nation in comparison to here in New York state. So far most responses have been from west or east coast.

-- 3rd generation craftsman ~ www.passionforwoodworking.com

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woodbasher

4 posts in 2254 days


#24 posted 01-17-2009 01:48 AM

Dear sirs
I employed 15 two weeks ago now 13. in england it i hard right now. you have my sympathey. i make what my customers want for an agreed price, lots of pepole did not do that, never mind deliver the work/ goodscheck us out at mountshill.com.
wishing you good fortune,
robin

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mrtrim

1696 posts in 2576 days


#25 posted 01-17-2009 01:52 AM

i keep reading in these economic threads how the gov. is anti small business . this is not true . they are for small bus. however their idea of small bus. and our idea of it is very different . our idea is those of us that work alone and some who have 1 or 2 employees or even 7 or 8 . the gov. idea of small bus. is those that employ maybe 30 to 100 employees . to them we are just an irratant . not a small business . thats why we are not considered when they make the rules concerning business .

and by the way my business here in fl. is all but extinct . and i first saw a distinct drop off starting 2 yr. ago this month o7 was not real bad but 08 has been about dead

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4hisglory

73 posts in 2146 days


#26 posted 01-17-2009 02:09 AM

You hit the nail on the head mrtrim. The government’s idea of small business is what most people consider quite large. The average small business that you and I consider small has 2-10 employees. This makes up most roofing, framing, construction crews. The small business the government is looking at are your local grand unions (20-30 employees) or a local lumberyard that employs 20 or so guys etc.

What we need right now is to get rid of the market to market policy. Every financial expert I’ve seen since this started has been clamoring for it to be removed. Apparently it is one of the big culprits in our decline right now. We also need a broad based tax cut to everyone that pays taxes including the very wealthy because they are simply not spending money right now. Many of these very wealthy people have companies that can’t survive without a tremendous amount of capital to feed the overhead, and so they are being very conservative with their money right now.

The big thing I try to encourage people with is to always have hope. We will go through rough times and we will survive. This crisis is worldwide and it had to happen. The key now is to keep our heads high and do what has to be done to make it through. If that means working a double shift at the local home depot then we’ll have to swallow that pill and do it. Things are not that bad yet. The word depression should not even ben used yet. If people think this is a depression I think they should look back to Carter and double digit inflation, gas lines, and an economy that was rotting. The depression had unemployment numbers in the 30% range if I do recall. We are only at 6-7% That is still low comparatively speaking over the last 60 years.

-- 3rd generation craftsman ~ www.passionforwoodworking.com

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RAH

414 posts in 2573 days


#27 posted 01-17-2009 06:15 AM

Insurance requirements has always been a pet peeve of mine, 20% of everything I brought in went to some form of insurance. Some of it required to be in business and others to compete for employees. The privilege of doing business in California is expensive.

Customers complain about the prices you charge but they don’t realize what cost are involved to be a business or what it takes to just get to their home to perform the work. I am a roofer and some peoples perception is a twenty bucks and a six pack should be enough compensation.

I feel like I have dropped back 5 to 7 years in time. I caught with too much overhead that I needed when this where going strong. I have unloaded what I can and the rest will be paid off in two more years. Each month is stressful however I have been paying all of my bills.

I am asked quite often if I am keeping busy. I wasn’t sure how to answer because I would compare it to the times I had 7 employees, back log of three weeks and twice the gross income. I have myself and one employee right now. I have a consistent back log of one week of work ahead of me. It might take till thursday or friday to get it but I have something to do everyday, that is busy. I will make it the same way I got here by hard work and long hours. At fifty three it is physically harder, but I have lost 35 ponds and feel healthier.

-- Ron Central, CA

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Moron

4666 posts in 2589 days


#28 posted 01-17-2009 07:57 AM

I never thought to mention insurance

what a scam

if you claim you loose and if you dont you pay and if you make a claim you pay

if you under insure and dont come clean you loose

if you over insure and then make a claim

you loose

you pay

and dont claim…...................you eventually win?

and they make billions….................hmmmmmm

wassup?

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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Moron

4666 posts in 2589 days


#29 posted 01-17-2009 07:59 AM

and you wonder why they have yet to bail out the insurance companies?

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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Moron

4666 posts in 2589 days


#30 posted 01-17-2009 08:01 AM

I might remind those who think otherwise

if it were not for the rich

none of us would have a job

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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miles125

2179 posts in 2701 days


#31 posted 01-17-2009 02:46 PM

””Maybe you should have diversified your business model to include people other than the wealthy.
Brad_Nailor””

Now theres a novel idea. Should we use Haitti as an ideal model in your view? Your utopia of no more greedy rich is exactly that. The logic escapes me of people who reflexively think they’ll somehow make themselves better by tearing other people with more than they have down.

The problem with attacking rich people is its like a tree branch wanting to destroy the tree trunk because its so unfairly bigger. You can do it. But you better be prepared to destroy yourself by falling the furthest in the process.

-- "The way to make a small fortune in woodworking- start with a large one"

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mrtrim

1696 posts in 2576 days


#32 posted 01-17-2009 03:00 PM

you make a good point miles , ive always said if you dont make a lot more than i do , you probably cant afford to have my truck parked in front of your house ! i probably should have focused on some things everyone could afford not just the luxury stuff . now my wealthy customers arent spending money on their homes as property values are sinking , therefore i cant afford to have my truck in front of my own house !! lol

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miles125

2179 posts in 2701 days


#33 posted 01-17-2009 03:16 PM

Somehow now its fashionable to judge a mans character and motives in life simply by how much money he has. We used to call those who judged entire groups in such a stereotypical manner “BIGOTS”. I still do.

-- "The way to make a small fortune in woodworking- start with a large one"

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Brad_Nailor

2531 posts in 2653 days


#34 posted 01-17-2009 08:06 PM

Miles, I was just pointing out that your assumption that there is no economic crisis other than people whining that there is one, and blaming the rich is ridiculous. The people that signed loan papers that they knew they couldn’t afford to pay are just as guilty as the bankers that offered them the deal. I don’t judge people by how much money they have, but I do judge people by how they act, and when they feel that their wealth precludes them for obeying the laws of this government and to treat other people with basic respect regardless of their social status, I judge them harshly…. I don’t care how much potential earnings I can glean from them.

-- http://www.facebook.com/pages/DSO-Designs/297237806954248

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Sawdust2

1467 posts in 2783 days


#35 posted 01-17-2009 09:37 PM

First off, this is not an excuse for Madoff nor for the people who invested with him.

Lot’s of those “rich” people who invested with him used the return from the “investment” to fund charitable trusts. So there is a double loss here – the investment and the underprivileged folk who were helped by those trusts that no longer have any money.

We’ve had a number of really rich clients. I remember one who was leaving the next day to go to South Africa to go fishing. His philosophy was that when you were as rich as he was it was your responsibility to spend money so that others could earn money.

Lee

-- No piece is cut too short. It was meant for a smaller project.

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Brad_Nailor

2531 posts in 2653 days


#36 posted 01-17-2009 10:52 PM

Your right allot of rich people are incredibly generous, giving people, that just happen to have money. I feel bad for everyone rich or otherwise that lost money with Madoff. It doesn’t matter how much you have it still hurts to be swindled.

-- http://www.facebook.com/pages/DSO-Designs/297237806954248

View Davesfunwoodworking's profile

Davesfunwoodworking

272 posts in 2571 days


#37 posted 01-18-2009 08:17 PM

Hello all, I live in Northern Cal. I don’t own a buisness, I just work for one. But I can say this year has been very slow. We had about 20 guys at work this time last year and now we are down to 3. This is the first year like this. Last year I was working 40 to 65 hours a week. Now I got this weeks done I got 16 hours. Not sure what everyone is thinking. I know things will get better. It may take time but it will. I would also like to say why should you go after just rich or very well to do people? Just because they have more money?? I think some of or best customers or working class. Just like me. Everyone or should I say most everyone has money today. Some have more some have less. But I think if some one likes something enough they do what they have to and save for it. Some can go out and just buy it. Thats great for them! But for most people we all are in the same boat. Just doing what we can when we can do it. In buisness you take what you can get, the rich the poor its all money and if you keep your prices the same for the rich as you do the poor, then why would you go after the rich people. I don’t understand that kind of thinking.
As for me and my family I will work and never get rich. I am okay with that, I have food on the table a roof over my head. Think about the rich who have a few tables and a few roofs. What makes people happy
???
Work is very slow and money is hard to come by. But people who are happy are the richest people I know. Be happy with what God has given you and not what others have.
So enough of that. Things will get bad but then things will get better.
Maybe this is a good thing, maybe people will go back to the ways of old. People helped one another, and did it out of kindness not for money. Maybe people will put more time into thier family. Maybe people will see the need to live together as one big family. Yes the old days!!!! Maybe then things will get better. Good luck to all who own a buisness treat your self good, but treat your employess better.

-- Davesfunwoodworking

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