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View CharlesA's profile

For those of you with a Wynn Filter and some kind of separator/cyclone for your DC

by CharlesA
posted 10-26-2014 06:14 AM


30 replies so far

View timbertailor's profile

timbertailor

1594 posts in 1628 days


#1 posted 10-26-2014 08:36 AM

If you can get away with it, exhausting outside is definitely more cost effective.

-- Brad, Texas, https://www.youtube.com/user/tonkatoytruck/feed

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

3670 posts in 2193 days


#2 posted 10-26-2014 11:29 AM

I looked at your shop and it appears that you have done a good job of collecting dust at the source. If you vent the dust outside, are you creating a dust problem in an area which could cause you or others problems. The dust will probably coat everything in the area and if people walk through it will kick up a cloud of dust. Also, the wind could carry the dust everywhere.

The Clearvue cyclone has filters that are 99.999% efficient at 0.5 microns which is very good. It is a nice setup but takes up some space and is not cheap.

Do you collect dust at the ROS. I would think that a sander probably produces more small dust particles than any other tool and collecting dust at the sander would be important.

I collect dust the dust at my ROS sanders and it helps a lot. I have a DeWalt sander and a Festool sander and connect both to a HEPA vacuum.

Another question would be which filter are you using in your 3M respirator. If you are concerned with the dust, you should be using a N100 or P100 rated filter when sanding. These are rated at getting 99.7% of dust particles while the 95 only gets 95%.

View Fred Hargis's profile (online now)

Fred Hargis

5177 posts in 2697 days


#3 posted 10-26-2014 11:48 AM

If I could exhaust outside, I’d do it in a heartbeat. It gets a little cold around here to do that, but if you’ve considered the heat/cooling impacts on your shop you haven’t overlooked anything. Well, maybe one thing: if you shop is attached to the house and contains thing like the furnace or a gas water heater you might cause a backdraft in those appliances (not good).

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

5094 posts in 2555 days


#4 posted 10-26-2014 12:46 PM

I’ve said this before, if you are spending money to heat your shop, blowing heated air to the outside is expensive. If you don’t heat your shop, then it is not a problem.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#5 posted 10-26-2014 02:00 PM

Thanks, everyone. I do use my shopVac with ROS, but I’m probably going to be constructing a downdraft table to help even more and for hand sanding. I have the P100 filters for the mask.

Redoak49, you said, “The dust will probably coat everything in the area and if people walk through it will kick up a cloud of dust. Also, the wind could carry the dust everywhere.” If this is the case, this is out. I live in the city. This is the kind of thing I’m trying to think through. Is this true? This would be ported out right next to my neighbor’s back yard, separated by a tall wooden fence. I cannot create a dust issue for my neighbor. Everything I’ve read up to this point suggested that with a separator/cyclone, that the wind would disperse the little that was left.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Fred Hargis's profile (online now)

Fred Hargis

5177 posts in 2697 days


#6 posted 10-26-2014 02:03 PM


Everything I ve read up to this point suggested that with a separator/cyclone, that the wind would disperse the little that was left.

- CharlesA

That is true if you have a separator. The only thing going out is the finest particles, and they are so small as to be dispersed by even the lightest of breezes. Any coating that might build up around the discharge point will be quickly washed off by rain. Be aware, the discharge point may have some noise. If your neighbors are close that may also be a problem.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#7 posted 10-26-2014 02:07 PM

Noise: I’ve thought a bit about that. Since my shop is open when I’m using it, the noise is already pretty out there. Second, I checked with an iPhone db app—59 db inside the shop.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#8 posted 10-26-2014 02:20 PM

Anybody with experience with the exhaust outside?

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Case101's profile

Case101

107 posts in 1997 days


#9 posted 10-26-2014 02:37 PM

I too am interested in sending the output of the DC to the outside world. I have my HF DC located in the garage with piping into my shop in the basement. I did this so the fine dust would be in the garage and not in the shop. Not to mention the noise of the DC.

I have a window close enough to the DC that I could put some duct from the DC to the outside.

My question; what size duct would be recommended for the output of the DC to vent to the outside world?

I don’t want to constrict the flow of the DC, also not having a filter on the DC should also make it more efficient if the duct is of adequate size.

Thanks,

-- John, New Jersey

View timbertailor's profile

timbertailor

1594 posts in 1628 days


#10 posted 10-26-2014 02:45 PM



I too am interested in sending the output of the DC to the outside world. I have my HF DC located in the garage with piping into my shop in the basement. I did this so the fine dust would be in the garage and not in the shop. Not to mention the noise of the DC.

I have a window close enough to the DC that I could put some duct from the DC to the outside.

My question; what size duct would be recommended for the output of the DC to vent to the outside world?

I don t want to constrict the flow of the DC, also not having a filter on the DC should also make it more efficient if the duct is of adequate size.

Thanks,

- Case101

Try to keep the vacuum hoses the same size as the DC output. Usually 5” or 6”. I know Wynn sells different size hoses. HF sells the 5” in a kit.

-- Brad, Texas, https://www.youtube.com/user/tonkatoytruck/feed

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#11 posted 10-26-2014 03:09 PM

actually, it just occurs to me that I could exhaust it out the back of the garage instead of the side, much further away from that neighbor.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View crank49's profile

crank49

4032 posts in 3175 days


#12 posted 10-26-2014 04:01 PM

If you are not concerned by wasted energy of loosing conditioned air, or if you have “no air conditioner and little heat” then it is good economically speaking to just exhaust this air.

For what it’s worth, if any industry tried to do this it would be the legal equilavent suicide. The EPA could and would shut you down in a heartbeat, fine the crap out of you and probably destroy your business forever. They can accuse, try, and convict you without setting foot in a court.

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

8166 posts in 3002 days


#13 posted 10-26-2014 04:10 PM

Just another thought.
Highway truck filters are the same rating as the advertised dust collector filters (merv15@99.9%) and much, much cheaper. You just need to find a physical size that will work for you.
This is my setup using them. It is a huge improvement over “the bag”.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View SCOTSMAN's profile

SCOTSMAN

5849 posts in 3789 days


#14 posted 10-26-2014 04:22 PM

Charles would you be so kind as to let me see your out of the shop project ,with a few pic’s perhaps.I have a dedicated dust extractor which I bought to use with my wood lathe but,it keeps clogging up as some of my woodchips are long and stringy. So to date it has lain unused till I figure it all out .I am currently thinking of a double container useing a rubber dust bin with a well fitting lid.But directly outside straight through the wall from the headstock/bed sounds even better, or is it ? Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#15 posted 10-26-2014 05:06 PM

Paul, Which filter did you buy. Can one just pick them up easily?

Alistair, as soon as I have something to show, I’ll post a pic.

Michael, I figure that actual running time of my DC is 1-2 hours a week. Most of the time it is on for 30 seconds at a time (TS cut, bandsaw cut, router, etc.). Are you suggesting that this may be the wrong thing to do, even though I am not subject to regs? I’m interested in any negative consequences of outside exhaust.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View buildingmonkey's profile

buildingmonkey

242 posts in 1752 days


#16 posted 10-26-2014 09:29 PM

I have a 2hp cyclone, and the filter used to have to be cleaned regularly, but I found I had a leak, took it apart and used silicone to seal it, then used silicone and furnace tape to seal every joint, and now I hardly get ANY dust in my filter. Seems these cyclones work amazingly well when they are well sealed. I could exhaust the air coming out of the cyclone and nobody would notice any dust.

-- Jim from Kansas

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

8166 posts in 3002 days


#17 posted 10-26-2014 11:31 PM

I actually don’t remember exactly which one I got, part number wise. I just went in knowing the air moving capacity of my fan and the general size and the parts man walked me around the warehouse until we found something that worked. He was very nice about it.
I think all these filters are about the same in quality. Truckers care because tiny particles can do expensive damage to Diesel engines, just like they can your lungs. Look for the terms “nano-fibre” , merv15, etc. I got filters that will pass about 150% of what my fan will push, no load. May sound like overkill but these things can only suck in as much air as they can blow out. More is better.
Read a kizerpea’s blog too. You will have to innovate a little but it isn’t hard and it is well worth it.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#18 posted 10-26-2014 11:52 PM

I think I’m going to try it. Remove the motor from the stand and build a 30.5” stand for it to sit on. Cut a 5” hole in the back of the garage, and put a short piece of metal ducting through the hole, connected to the 5” hose coming from the motor. Attach some kind of 90° (pvc) to the duct outside. Considerably smaller footprint. I’ll check from time to time to see how much is coming out.

Most expensive part of the endeavor will be the 5” hole saw.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Mark Kornell's profile

Mark Kornell

1169 posts in 2735 days


#19 posted 10-27-2014 12:14 AM


Anybody with experience with the exhaust outside?

- CharlesA

I have a ClearVue, and I’ve set it up so I can exhaust inside through filters, or outside without filters. The exhaust coming off the CV is just a T, with blast gates on either side. Open one, close the other to change which way it exhausts. Here’s the setup without the inside filter hooked up:

It is getting about time to switch it from external to internal exhaust.

The blast gates aren’t a perfect solution in that they are a bit leaky. Meaning that even when exhausting outside, some dust gets out and settles in the closet. Nothing I find particularly concerning.

I’ve had this setup for the last 6 months, and haven’t had any appreciable buildup of dust outside. The exception to that was when I forgot to empty the bin and it started spewing everything outside. :-)

-- Mark Kornell, Kornell Wood Design

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#20 posted 10-27-2014 12:17 AM

Mark. What kind of vent do you have setup on the outside wall?

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View ScottStewart's profile

ScottStewart

120 posts in 2336 days


#21 posted 10-27-2014 12:22 AM

I do not know if this is true, but I know I’ve read it somewhere

There is an issue somewhere that if the motor/impeller is pushing against less pressure than designed, the air movement can increase significantly and the amperage the motor is using increasing as well. I would either chech with someone that knows electrical better than I do, or check the amperage pulled when there is no back pressure.

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#22 posted 10-27-2014 12:25 AM

Scott,

I thought that involved not having the the intake connected to anything. I don’t think it is related to resistance in the exhaust.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View timbertailor's profile

timbertailor

1594 posts in 1628 days


#23 posted 10-27-2014 12:37 AM


I have a 2hp cyclone, and the filter used to have to be cleaned regularly, but I found I had a leak, took it apart and used silicone to seal it, then used silicone and furnace tape to seal every joint, and now I hardly get ANY dust in my filter. Seems these cyclones work amazingly well when they are well sealed. I could exhaust the air coming out of the cyclone and nobody would notice any dust.

- buildingmonkey

I am also impressed with how little saw dust is making it to the canister filter. I was concerned I had not allowed enough space for it to collect. I should not have been concerned.

-- Brad, Texas, https://www.youtube.com/user/tonkatoytruck/feed

View Mark Kornell's profile

Mark Kornell

1169 posts in 2735 days


#24 posted 10-27-2014 05:36 AM

Charles, the external is just a standard 12” vent:

It’s the big one, not the little one.

I’m a little concerned that the opening is a bit limited and may serve to constrict the cfm the cyclone can move. That being said, I haven’t noticed any issues with the amount of dust being collected. A spring project will be to change the vent’s hood to allow a freer flow.

-- Mark Kornell, Kornell Wood Design

View Fred Hargis's profile (online now)

Fred Hargis

5177 posts in 2697 days


#25 posted 10-27-2014 10:56 AM



Scott,

I thought that involved not having the the intake connected to anything. I don t think it is related to resistance in the exhaust.

- CharlesA

Bad assumption, Charles. Anything that can allow the blower to move more air will increase the amp load. Easily checked with an amp meter.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#26 posted 11-02-2014 04:53 PM

Here’s what I have for now. We’ll see how it works.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3351 posts in 2002 days


#27 posted 11-03-2014 12:38 AM

Using an iPhone app, I checked noise levels.

At my table saw, about 15 feet from the DC, 53 db (down 5 db from when filtered).

Outside the shop on the side, 50 db.

Directly beside the vent outside, 60 db.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Case101's profile

Case101

107 posts in 1997 days


#28 posted 11-03-2014 01:07 AM

I’ve been considering venting to the outside world

-- John, New Jersey

View Case101's profile

Case101

107 posts in 1997 days


#29 posted 11-03-2014 01:07 AM



Charles, the external is just a standard 12” vent:

It s the big one, not the little one.

I m a little concerned that the opening is a bit limited and may serve to constrict the cfm the cyclone can move. That being said, I haven t noticed any issues with the amount of dust being collected. A spring project will be to change the vent s hood to allow a freer flow.

- Mark Kornell

What kind of dust accumulation do you have outside?

Thanks,

-- John, New Jersey

View crank49's profile

crank49

4032 posts in 3175 days


#30 posted 11-09-2014 08:45 PM



Scott,

I thought that involved not having the the intake connected to anything. I don t think it is related to resistance in the exhaust.

- CharlesA

Resistance, measured in inches of water usually in the USA, is not just a sucking or blowing thing. A fan does not care if the resistance is coming or going, as long as it is within its design capacity.

Fans can be desiged as “non-overloading”, but you won’t find those fans on cheap collectors because they cost more and are not as efficient for energy consumption.

Also, I’ve not seen it mentioned here before, but cold air is heavier than hot air and takes more horsepower to move. So, a fan or system that is modified and has less resistance than it was designed for, might work well on a hot summer day, but burn up its motor on a cold winter day.

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