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Solid Lumber Slab doors and drawer faces???????

by ,
posted 07-31-2014 02:41 AM


44 replies so far

View Clint Searl's profile

Clint Searl

1533 posts in 2532 days


#1 posted 07-31-2014 02:49 AM

There WILL be seasonal movement and warping/twisting. Let the builder eat it.

-- Clint Searl....Ya can no more do what ya don't know how than ya can git back from where ya ain't been

View NoThanks's profile

NoThanks

798 posts in 1700 days


#2 posted 07-31-2014 02:57 AM

Outsource them, at least they will be warranted to be flat when you get them.
Advise your customer that there could/will be some warping and or cupping that you won’t warranty them.
200 doors, way too many to eat, way too many to remain flat. 4 or 5 of them cup and the owner flips out and wants them all redone.
Personally, I don’t think I would do it unless it was a mdf core wrapped with a wood trim.
I don’t think there is any way your going to get the builder to warranty them, he’s not going to eat it. He’s coming right back to you.

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

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,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#3 posted 07-31-2014 03:17 AM

I actually outsource my doors, but my door shop in Austin does not do solid lumber slab doors.

I am just thinking about this, and there does seem to be a couple of different angles I can take. One of them I think I could suggest that the customer purchase their own doors from another shop, possibly the builder’s cabinet guys, and then they can warranty those doors and we will handle the rest as we always do.

The fact is, I stopped building doors a year ago, not that we cannot, but time in our shop does not permit to do so and building doors is neither cost effective or efficient for both the builder and the customer. And our door shop does not build what the customer wants, and probably for good reason. I just googled slab cabinet doors and most of what I am finding are MDF core or plywood.

What gets me is I sold the customer on a Echowood (very expensive green option, high end material) with a stable MDF core for stability and flat. It was a real wood veneer and was simply beautiful in it’s natural color. No staining would have been necessary. The color would have been consistent and perfect. The sheets were going to cost of 150.00 per sheet plus tax. Now we will have solid Maple to stain???? My experience has not been the fun when staining Maple. No doubt that we can do it well now.

I guess I am just thinking out loud here. At the end of the day I want to do what is right for my customer and for our shop. But I estimate he door/drawer face order is around 10,000.00. That is a significant issue if one were to arise.

Plus given the 1/8” reveals, that seems to spell potential disaster.

-- .

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

18379 posts in 3847 days


#4 posted 07-31-2014 03:38 AM

I’m not even a cabinet maker and I know better than to try to met and maintain those tolerances with that material. Sometimes knowing when to just say “NO” is the best option. Looks like an endless warranty issue. You do not need an unhappy, ignorant customer bad-mouthing your business. Let his cabinet guys do it. You will be grinning ear to ear in the end ;-)

-- Bob in WW ~ "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View HerbC's profile

HerbC

1790 posts in 3031 days


#5 posted 07-31-2014 03:38 AM

Jerry,

I’d run away from this one as fast as possible.

Let the builder and his “buddy” deal with the problems that WILL happen.

You’ve done due diligence in trying to properly advise the customer. You will regret proceeding as that customer desires.

Herb

-- Herb, Florida - Here's why I close most messages with "Be Careful!" http://lumberjocks.com/HerbC/blog/17090

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8477 posts in 2748 days


#6 posted 07-31-2014 03:46 AM

” but my door shop in Austin does not do solid lumber slab doors”

There’s your answer ^

Great responses BTW

View Yonak's profile

Yonak

986 posts in 1692 days


#7 posted 07-31-2014 04:07 AM

Tell the customer there is a good reason why you can’t find slab doors. Have you thought about veneering an engineered core to make it look like a slab ? ..Or using hardwood plywood to make doors ?

Sorry .. please ignore. I misunderstood. I thought we were talking about entry doors. I wish there were a way to delete posts.

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,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#8 posted 07-31-2014 11:46 AM

No problem Yonak, thanks for posting.

-- .

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

4626 posts in 2480 days


#9 posted 07-31-2014 12:27 PM

View huff's profile

huff

2828 posts in 3456 days


#10 posted 07-31-2014 01:14 PM

Jerry,

The builder, whom I do not even know, has his own cabinet guys, who I understand he would prefer to work with. His cabinet guys have advised him there will be no issues with going with slab solid lumber doors/drawer faces. He has passed this information on to the customer.

RED FLAG!!!!!! Do you really think this builder is looking out for you? Sounds like he has a bent nose and setting you up for failure in the customers eye.

No way should you do 200 doors in a solid wood flat slab. Think about it; how many of those doors that are 15” or wider are going to stay perfectly flat for the next twenty years and who will have to keep going back?

All it will take is for one door to fail and you will get thrown under the bus by the contractor. He’s already set your customer up for that.

This is one of those jobs it may be better to “gracefully” back away from. You can check with some of the largest cabinet door manufacturers in the country and I doubt you will find any that will do it.

I’d much rather lose a job than lose my reputation.

Good luck!

BTW; just my 2 cents worth! : )

-- John @ http://www.thehuffordfurnituregroup.com

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2450 posts in 4042 days


#11 posted 07-31-2014 01:26 PM

Been making a livng doing woodwork for 40 + years , Im with the first response, Clint has it right

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 3819 days


#12 posted 07-31-2014 02:46 PM

Ouch. I would not do it I don’t think. Board and batten is
the correct approach and would control cupping but
the width expansion is going to happen.

Look at the US Forestry service’s wood engineering
handbook. There’s a seasonal movement chart
in there you can send to the client.

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

5048 posts in 2522 days


#13 posted 07-31-2014 02:52 PM

Slab doors, that’s just crazy. Let the guy who say’s there will be no issues build it. At the very least I would use quarter sawn material only and there still will be seasonal movement across the width of a door, how could there not be?

-- Bondo Gaposis

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 3819 days


#14 posted 07-31-2014 02:58 PM

I am not sure, but I think you can demonstrate too.

Glue up a 15” slab and pour water on it. It should
cup… but will it go back to how it was?

Fun opportunity to make a little video and maybe
close a sale.

Everybody has seen a warped cutting board. Same
thing.

View Ocelot's profile

Ocelot

2103 posts in 2809 days


#15 posted 07-31-2014 03:06 PM

I have no experience to offer any opinion on this, but I would gracefully bow out. It may be a $10K order, but if it costs you $15K in the end, it’s not good business.

But… have you considered PEG impregnated slabs? What’s the timeline on this? There might be time to do it if you can outsource the processing. I understand that gunstock makers often do this to control wood movement.

If you can find somebody who has actually done it and had good results…
Here’s a patent on the process. Somebody owns that patent. Maybe they can do it.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5866270

more http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Using_PEG_for_dimensional_stability.html

-Paul

View RogerInColorado's profile

RogerInColorado

321 posts in 2126 days


#16 posted 07-31-2014 06:13 PM

I really would call the builder’s cabinet guy and ask if they have a way of building slab doors that don’t have the issues being discussed here. You are outsourcing your doors now and you can be honest with them about that as a potential customer and the fact that your present source won’t guarantee the desired results. If they have a solution, and a willingness to guarantee it, they would want prospective customers such as you to know about it.

Also, the customer may not have fully understood what the builder convinced them to specify. “Slab doors” and “Solid Maple Doors” are terms that may mean different things to different people. One man’s solid maple door is another man’s maple veneer over a banded maple plywood core.

View Earlextech's profile

Earlextech

1162 posts in 2862 days


#17 posted 07-31-2014 06:41 PM

The builder is the issue here and always has been. I stayed away from contractors as much as I could through my cabinet career and this is exactly why. I would tell the customer that if it’s your warranty then its your construction method and the end result will look the same. Or run…run…run.

-- Sam Hamory - The project is never finished until its "Finished"!

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 2244 days


#18 posted 07-31-2014 06:43 PM

Agree with all of the above. I have gotten out of this one several times like this. “I am happy to do it, it will cost 4x’s as much, and I do not extend a warranty for stability on solid slab doors…. Would you still like them?”

-- Who is John Galt?

View Joseph Jossem's profile

Joseph Jossem

492 posts in 2440 days


#19 posted 07-31-2014 06:44 PM

I did a large kitchen job with slab doors in premium curly koa.All the doors are still straight and look amazing.Floor to ceiling cabinets.But i hand selected the quartersawn boards dreid the lumber properly and built them properly so seasonal movement isnt a issue.Wood alone was $40k so i made sure that my end was perfect absolutely no room for failure. If you have to rely on someone else to do that level of work ask some some reassurance of quality but it imagine a 20yr warranty will be hard to get.I warranty my work for life but thats my standrad.

I agree with earlextech if theres a contractor involved run as fast as you can!Here 90% of contractors are BS masters when it comes to quality

If you have to work with the contractor write seperate contracts with the homeowner and avoid any responsibility on theyre part.I did this cabinet job with a contractor after i finished i came back and found all the doors stacked on each other scratched to hell so he could fix a pipe he screwed up.I loved the look on his face when i handed him a $4k refinishing bill.

View Ocelot's profile

Ocelot

2103 posts in 2809 days


#20 posted 07-31-2014 07:51 PM

Wow! Those koa doors are awesome!

View Shawn Masterson's profile

Shawn Masterson

1325 posts in 2120 days


#21 posted 07-31-2014 11:48 PM

I would walk away from the solid doors. even with stiffeners on the inside the will still pull.

View ,'s profile

,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#22 posted 08-01-2014 12:52 AM

Thanks everyone. I was sort of feeling discouraged about the idea of the slab solid maple panels.

Whether the job could be pulled off with success or not, I would have 2 large draw backs. First and foremost, we just will not build doors in our shop due to he time schedule issues. That would mean finding a source to cut those doors.

Second, with the 1/8” reveals all around the panels everywhere, I fear there will be problems with the expansion and contraction. I understand the method of hardbacks, but still there is expansion and contraction. And the way our shop is set up, I cannot control my climate that well. What we have done for ourselves is construct in our shop a 11’ by 40’ climate controlled space we keep around 75 degrees for our products to live in right after we apply finish. But up to that point, no climate control and humidity is bad around here. It is not as bad as FL, but still bad enough.

I think I will re read this thread before I meet with the customer to discuss this problematic issue.

-- .

View splatman's profile

splatman

586 posts in 1570 days


#23 posted 08-01-2014 08:04 AM

A slab door (or any panel of wood not bound by a box or frame, such as an adjustable shelf) could be made stable by using metal rods in holes drilled thru the edges of the boards before glue-up, with blind holes in the edge-of-panel boards. The hard part, is making sure the rods are not bonded, (wax the rods?) but are allowed to freely slide longitudinally (with some friction, so no rod rattle), so the panel is free to expand/contract, but never warp. Some bowing is still possible, unless you can also run rods with the grain, along the edges, or on different planes, eg. cross-grain rods closer to the back, along-grain rods closer to the front.
For example, if the Koa cabinet doors (very pretty!) in the pic above were done this way, the 2 halves of each door would be drilled from the glue-line edge, with the holes drilled back of the center, (between front face and back face) and a dado cut front-of-center, for an along-the-grain rod, and the holes would stop maybe 1/2” short of the outer edge, and the dado would stop 1/2” short of the ends, so, when assembled, would look no different, but the chances of warpage would be near-0.
I never tried this before; I came up with this idea while reading this thread, so I would not use this on a job w/o some assembly and endurance testing first.

View rrww's profile

rrww

263 posts in 2284 days


#24 posted 08-01-2014 11:18 AM

By now I think you got it. If for whatever reason you do make these doors you need the customer to sign a good release form. If/when the doors move the last thing you want is the customer to bad mouth your reputation. With the right person this can cost more then the damage caused by the doors. Even if they signed a release form it dosn’t mean they will play nice.

Sometimes its just better to walk away.

View huff's profile

huff

2828 posts in 3456 days


#25 posted 08-01-2014 12:00 PM



The builder is the issue here and always has been. I stayed away from contractors as much as I could through my cabinet career and this is exactly why. I would tell the customer that if it s your warranty then its your construction method and the end result will look the same. Or run…run…run.

- Earlextech

Jerry,

That’s worth reading again!

-- John @ http://www.thehuffordfurnituregroup.com

View Pezking7p's profile

Pezking7p

3217 posts in 1823 days


#26 posted 08-01-2014 12:33 PM

I have almost no experience building cabinets, but I do understand marketing and how people communicate with customers when trying to “seal the deal.” I’m guessing either the homeowner or the builder has been lied to in the past regarding “solid wood doors”, and really they are talking about plywood doors just as you are describing. And really, who would know the difference after install?

-- -Dan

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,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#27 posted 08-01-2014 01:58 PM

Thanks for the responses fellas. I actually don’t do a lot of work with builders. I do have 2 builders that I do personally work for now, and they like us a lot. But a lot of times I sell a owner cabinets and the owner has their own builder. Mostly the builder has his own cabinet guys and prefers to use whom he knows and trusts. Then the owner will force us on him because I sell the job and gain the customer’s trust. So there lays much of the issue.

Also, we even recently invested in an edgebander that pinched our finances a bit. So this whole reversal in thinking by my customers has caught us off guard.

I currently am not locked under contract as the builder holds the check book and has been hard to nail down for a deposit check.

One thing that also struck me different about this builder. He requested to see one of our recent jobs. I set him up with a customer we did recently, in fact the pictures are on my projects page of the job I sent him to. Let me first say that we have perfected our finishing process over time to the point where we have become very good at it. When you see our work, it looks very good, and when you feel it with your hands, in my mind it is much like feeling glass in that the finish is very smooth to the touch. I think the fact that we sectioned off 11 by 40 of climate controlled space in our shop that we keep at 75 degrees helps us greatly with finished doors/etc… With this in mind, the builder, after seeing the job, reported to the owners that our finish on that job appeared as though it could have used one more buffing step as the doors felt a little rough. The owners told me this, again catching me off guard since I totally did not expect that.

The owners themselves have seen our work also and have been very happy with our level of craftsmanship.

Honestly speaking, I want to be on record as saying I have come to respect and admire the owners as very good quality people. I would love to work with and for them in the future. However, the builder might make this a difficult situation and the whole door situation is concerning.

-- .

View Gshepherd's profile

Gshepherd

1727 posts in 2373 days


#28 posted 08-01-2014 02:18 PM

Jerry, after reading your last post here I would strongly suggest you to not walk away from this Contractor but run as fast as you can away from him and stay far away from him. He reeks trouble not just for you but also for the customer.

-- What we do in life will Echo through Eternity........

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 2244 days


#29 posted 08-01-2014 02:27 PM



Agree with all of the above. I have gotten out of this one several times like this. “I am happy to do it, it will cost 4x s as much, and I do not extend a warranty for stability on solid slab doors…. Would you still like them?”

- joeyinsouthaustin

Jerry: I suggested this, the fact that you will not warranty them should change their mind. If not, offer the carcass only, and invite the builder to provide the doors. The reality is, if they are insistent, Walk away. If you want some real ammo show them this http://www.chasarchitects.com/project/lake-austin-estate I did this house. It is a multi million dollar estate on lake Austin. It was featured on the Architecture in Austin tour last year, and won several awards, all focused around the cabinetry. ALL of the grain matched walnut modern slab drawer fronts in this house are veneer over MDF. Money was NO object, and only quality was the concern. We would not warranty ANYTHING for this house other than what we provided.

You are also welcome to show them these http://www.chupik.com/images/press/AusMonStamford.pdf
http://www.chupik.com/images/press/AusMonSmoketree.pdf

These are two other properties featured in Austin Monthly Home: EVERY slab cabinet door in these houses is veneer over MDF. For that fact we will not warranty veneer over Ply or Combo core.

This may convince the client, but you will become an adversary of the builder, who, IMHO, knows nothing about modern cabinetry. You may solve that by going to him first, privately, and explain that you have reached out to several high end cabinet firms, and your door provider, and that no one does it that way, or will extend a warranty. Put the ball in his court, tell him you need HIS help to find someone who will provide the solid slab doors.

If that conversation doesn’t go well. Give him my number, tell him I will bid it.. And when he says he wants solid slabs with 1/8” gaps… I’ll laugh loudly, tell him he obviously has no idea what he is doing, and hang up the phone on him. :)

-- Who is John Galt?

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 2244 days


#30 posted 08-01-2014 02:31 PM

I was composing while you posted your last comment. The way he picked on your finish. I would bow out on this one. It really looks like he wants to steer things back to his own people on this one… so he can make more money. If you make this deal, MAKE IT CLEAR THAT YOUR CONTRACT IS WITH THE HOMEOWNER, not as a sub of the builder. This will cause friction, but if the owner REALLY want you, they will have to take on the extra burden of being the middle man between you and the builder.

good luck man… been there before.

-- Who is John Galt?

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8477 posts in 2748 days


#31 posted 08-01-2014 02:34 PM

“With this in mind, the builder, after seeing the job, reported to the owners that our finish on that job appeared as though it could have used one more buffing step as the doors felt a little rough.”

Sounds like this guy’s doing you no favors every chance he gets.

+1 for Gshepherd

View Earlextech's profile

Earlextech

1162 posts in 2862 days


#32 posted 08-01-2014 02:41 PM

“I currently am not locked under contract as the builder holds the check book and has been hard to nail down for a deposit check.” “With this in mind, the builder, after seeing the job, reported to the owners that our finish on that job appeared as though it could have used one more buffing step as the doors felt a little rough.”

BIG RED FLAG!!! No deposit, no work. If it’s hard to start it, you know it will be harder to finish it. In other words, if you’re having trouble getting a deposit, getting the balance due will be even more stressful. Get ready to file a lien.

-- Sam Hamory - The project is never finished until its "Finished"!

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

18379 posts in 3847 days


#33 posted 08-01-2014 06:30 PM

I had occasion to work for out of state companies in my business. One thing I learned very quickly was the sunshine states; Florida, Texas & Hawaii, have laws to protect their shady operators. Liens and judgement aren’t worth the paper they are written on. You still have to collect. Last company out of Texas I worked for was told I would give the insurance agent here an opportunity to pay me or I would salvage my materials and they could get some one else to do the job. They paid ;-)

More and more red flags. You’ll never get full payment out of that guy. CIA only. (Cash in advance.) Nice guys finish last every time. I learned quickly. Turn the tables. Tell the customer you will be happy work with them, but not with this contractor on site and with your door design.

-- Bob in WW ~ "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View huff's profile

huff

2828 posts in 3456 days


#34 posted 08-01-2014 11:11 PM



“I currently am not locked under contract as the builder holds the check book and has been hard to nail down for a deposit check.” “With this in mind, the builder, after seeing the job, reported to the owners that our finish on that job appeared as though it could have used one more buffing step as the doors felt a little rough.”

BIG RED FLAG!!! No deposit, no work. If it s hard to start it, you know it will be harder to finish it. In other words, if you re having trouble getting a deposit, getting the balance due will be even more stressful. Get ready to file a lien.

- Earlextech

Sam,

You took the words right out of my mouth again! LOL

Jerry,

I don’t think there ’s a win situation anywhere in this one for you. Like I said before, that contractor will do anything and everything to make you look bad for your customer. If you every get a deposit, I would venture to bet that you will never get paid because he will pick your work apart especially in front of the customer….......he’s already given you fair notice.


-- John @ http://www.thehuffordfurnituregroup.com

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

4626 posts in 2480 days


#35 posted 08-01-2014 11:36 PM


By now I think you got it. If for whatever reason you do make these doors you need the customer to sign a good release form. If/when the doors move the last thing you want is the customer to bad mouth your reputation. With the right person this can cost more then the damage caused by the doors. Even if they signed a release form it dosn t mean they will play nice.

Sometimes its just better to walk away.

A release form in many cases isn’t worth the paper it’ written on. I have read of cases where the judge/and or jury will say, you the cabinet are the expert. The customer is not an expert, therefore you the cabinet should have known there would be problems and you are libel. A release does not make it ok to do something stupid. Also the release with not keep the customer from bad mouthing your work. He will still blame you.

I still say don’t do it.

- rrww


-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#36 posted 08-02-2014 12:00 AM

A ton of great responses. I can always count on good support from the LJ community. I think the comments are very accurate. One lesson I have learned the hard way in the past is basically, “Money can be made by not taking a job”. This seems as though it just might be a situation where we can make money, in the long term view, by not taking the job.

The struggle I have in my heart at this time is the bond or friendship I have developed with the owners over time. They first came to me before they broke ground a long time back. Since then they have had us out to dinner to get to know us. The most recent meeting the wife/owner even treated our children with a surprise gift for each. They really are very nice people.

I will be needing to have at least one more upcoming meeting with owners I have come to know as very good people. I will feel I let them down if I bow out completely. But at the same time, I have to protect my family from what looks to be a bad decision. The 1/8” reveals are really what has me most concerned. There are documented techniques to keeping solid slab doors fairly flat, but there is still the issue with expansion / contraction and 1/8” reveals.

My owners are very smart people with the ability to learn. I only plan to point them in the right direction with regards to research and let them come to their own conclusion. I will not be doing slab solid wood doors with 1/8” reveals.

And even if there was 1/2” reveals and solid slab doors could be used with hard back bracing, or insert rod bracing to control cupping and warping, the fact is our shop is not set up to build doors efficiently or effectively. We would be at the mercy of buying such doors from another shop, and the other shop will not warranty these types of doors still leaving us with great future liability.

Sort of a sad situation I find us in. We are not currently starving for work as we are flush on schedule. I just feel a connection with the owners and don’t want to let them down. But at the end of the day, I know this is business, it is not personal, just business.

As far as the builder goes, I have never met the guy. His schedule has not been flexible enough to ever even meet with him, he has only spoken with me one time on the phone. My last two text messages I sent him, about 2 weeks ago now, went without a response from him. I might be over analyzing him, but at this time with what I have to go off of, it seems he might be better off working with his own cabinet maker. And I would be also happy with that.

Thanks everyone a ton.

-- .

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,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#37 posted 08-02-2014 12:17 AM

Joey,

I looked at those links, those are some really nice projects you have done. If you are doing work like that a CNC would be great as it will nest your parts, blind dado and groove and system drill for your hardware / components.

Awesome looking projects.

-- .

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,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#38 posted 08-02-2014 12:27 AM

Also, not that it matters now for the most part. But as I have gotten to know the wife, she really likes the extremely even and consistent look that is only found with veneer. Then there is her taste for a darker color and both her and her husband desire something of real wood, not plastic laminate. I had arrived at the absolutely perfect product for them with the “Echowood” product. It is man manufactured using real wood and one of the options offered possessed a very rich dark color the wife just loved. All done on a very flat and stable MDF core, we were pretty much settled and I was feeling like we were making progress.

Now I am even thinking about the Maple being stained. Even with our best process and attempts in staining the maple, we will not be able to come close to duplicating the consistent and even color she desires in the laminate world. Many people, such as her, look at pictures online, they know they love what they are seeing but don’t completely understand exactly what it is that they are looking at.

If I were to show up with Maple stained and the color was not quite as even or consistent as what is found in the photographs she has become accustomed to seeing online (which are actually laminate), she might think “ugly”.

-- .

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2650 posts in 3054 days


#39 posted 08-02-2014 02:05 AM

at the end of the day, if you do the doors, every person that walks into the customer’s house will notice if they have any problems with them and your reputation will be at stake, regardless whether the builder convinced them or not. I’m a bit of a solid wood snob, but the reality is that wood moves and there is no getting around it.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View Ger21's profile

Ger21

1075 posts in 3302 days


#40 posted 08-02-2014 02:40 PM


The 1/8” reveals are really what has me most concerned. There are documented techniques to keeping solid slab doors fairly flat, but there is still the issue with expansion / contraction and 1/8” reveals.

Imo, the reveals would be the least of your problems.

“Fairly” flat is not flat, and there is no way to guarantee that the doors will remain flat.

Slab doors with steel rods in them is not a viable option. If you could find someone to build them (I highly doubt it), the cost would be at least 5 times more than without the steel.

Part of your job is to educate the customer, who in this case has been misinformed. Veneered slabs with 1/8” solid wood edgebanding makes for a superior product to solid wood, both in appearance and performance.

As far as staining maple doors. Depending on color, aniline dyes can work well. Another option is using a tinted topcoat to get a nice even color. If it’s a dark color, a different species can make your life a lot easier, even if it may cost slightly more.

-- Gerry, http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/index.html http://www.jointcam.com

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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 2244 days


#41 posted 08-02-2014 03:08 PM

Jerry Even and grain matched dictates this MUST be veneer laid up on 4×8 or 4×10 sheets. We have great success staining maple very even by using a spray on, dye based stain. It is much more like painting the maple, rather that staining it literally. I happens in many light coats, With the first essentially sealing it. It does not penetrate hardly at all, but rather adheres. The subsequent coats just ‘stain’ the sealed coat, deepening and evening the color. I have gotten very nice, and even results from this, Even with solid right next to veneer over Mdf. Takes a top coat beautiful. We spray it out of a CA bobcat airless air assist 14:1 rig, with a pre-atomising .411 tip. If I was taking this job. I would be cutting domestic maple MDF and edgbanding the slabs in maple. The Echo wood is a great product if they like the wood. It even stains a little better than pure solid wood with the technique I described. We often use the ‘quartersawn white oak, and walnut, when people don’t want to spring the $400 a sheet we charge for selected combed grain or quartersawn.

BTW: I agree with the other comments about “steel rods” and such. There is a reason we simply don’t even offer it. There is a better, long lasting, well made product out there for what you are doing. It is Veneer over MDF. People of the era of this builder often think of that with the 80’s style printed vinyl over chip board… but they couldn’t be farther apart. The basic fact is this: Euro style MODERN cabinetry came about BECAUSE of the veneer over sub-straight. It is what made 1/8” gaps executable in the first place, and is integral to the process. If someone wants that, the have to buy that.

P.S.: I picked up 18’ of heavy duty cantilever rack in Kerrville last Sunday. The seller gave me 200 lf of 5/4 s4s poplar with it for $800.00. I felt like I was ‘poaching tools’ in your territory.. but I got over it pretty quick. ;) He is selling a 24” drum sander, and a whirlwind upcut, if you want to take another stab at building your own doors.

-- Who is John Galt?

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nailbanger2

1041 posts in 3315 days


#42 posted 08-02-2014 03:15 PM

Jerry, your last post was 15 hrs ago, I hope you haven’t talked to the homeowner yet. Here’s something I did a few years back – the homeowner wanted me to use a veneer over drywall on a coffered ceiling. I knew it was wrong, but someone had told him it was fine, so…. I posed the question on LJ’s! I had a pretty good response (not as much as this one), and it was unanimous. I then emailed the homeowner with a link to the discussion. He immediately changed his mind, and the ceiling looks great with 1/4” mahogany ply. You say these people can learn, well, give them a chance.

-- Wish I were Norm's Nephew

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AandCstyle

3170 posts in 2428 days


#43 posted 08-03-2014 12:46 AM



Jerry, your last post was 15 hrs ago, I hope you haven t talked to the homeowner yet. Here s something I did a few years back – the homeowner wanted me to use a veneer over drywall on a coffered ceiling. I knew it was wrong, but someone had told him it was fine, so…. I posed the question on LJ s! I had a pretty good response (not as much as this one), and it was unanimous. I then emailed the homeowner with a link to the discussion. He immediately changed his mind, and the ceiling looks great with 1/4” mahogany ply. You say these people can learn, well, give them a chance.

- nailbanger2

I was going to suggest this, but Nailbanger beat me to it. Let the potential customers (and friends) make informed decisions.


-- Art

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,

2387 posts in 3718 days


#44 posted 08-03-2014 12:52 AM

Thanks guys. I will not be doing solid slab doors.

I will not be speaking with the owners for a week or so.

Joey, You have been snatching up machines in my territory????? I am not believing it. I am red hot mad now :)

Later guys, Jerry

-- .

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