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Baileigh equip vs competitor equip

by Jerry
posted 07-17-2013 03:42 PM


25 replies so far

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1286 posts in 826 days


#1 posted 07-17-2013 04:26 PM

Ask Shellyb she recently won their contest, and prolly has some personal experience with the company and machine quality??

-- Who is John Galt?

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2402 days


#2 posted 07-17-2013 04:32 PM

good question…

Edit (posted too soon): most all of the Asian machines are made the same way, with some very slight differences usually based on vendor requirements and the main difference usually is the QC thresholds that each company will entertain – thats why you see the HF units cheaper than the Grizzly/Jet equivalents and why those cheaper versions usually have lesser quality castings, and have a higher rate of returns/failures then the higher cost version of same unit.

I suppose it depends – does Baileigh CQ really delivers? does it do so at a $1200 value (or whatever the difference is)?

bottom line it is up to you as the customer to choose how to spend your money – and like you said, sometimes it’s best to add a little more and get a whole lot more but not everyone sees that.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#3 posted 07-17-2013 05:17 PM

Yeah, Shelly might have some personal experience at this point since she owns a nice Baileigh table saw. I do not doubt their equipment is nice and good to even great quality, but is there enough extra quality over Grizzly to justify around a grand more.

I am not just talking about table saws, but actually across the board with regards to their equipment.

I just think Baileigh has chosen a price point difficult for a person in my similar position to justify. Or they feel the price they request is required to provide this level of product to the consumer.

I would have the same issue with a Jet or other comparable. Woodcraft has a similar Jet at around 2,450.00 but at least you get some dealer support, or at least a store front where the saw can be returned conveniently to if it is a bad apple.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View Loren's profile

Loren

7829 posts in 2401 days


#4 posted 07-17-2013 05:27 PM

They have a decent price on a 16” jointer/planer flip top
combo. It has longer beds that the comparable Grizzly
and an insert cutterhead while the Grizzly is standard.

Sellers of basic hobby shop center pieces like 10” Asian
cabinet saws are of course going to compete intensely on
price. Grizzly committed to winning that game over
a decade ago and most of their old competitors
have bowed out.

For those investing in machinery intended to make a profit for
the woodshop, like sliding panel saws, wide belts and
edgebanders, the game is different as the technology of
the machines is more complex and prone to quality control
faults. An industrial machine is only as reliable as its least
well-made components. The slider that won’t stay square
or won’t cut edges straight enough and square enough to run
through a bander is no good to a shop that needs one that
will. No comment on Baleigh, but in terms of full-sized sliders,
Grizzly’s reputation is spotty.

-- http://lawoodworking.com

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#5 posted 07-17-2013 05:37 PM

Loren, now I can work with that. If they are competitive on a machine of interest while beating the competition on something such as having an insert cutterhead then that is great. Don’t necessarily have to beat the competition on price as much as offer a fair market price and beat the competition on quality and or extras such as the better cutterhead. I have never actually owned a jointer myself and if I am ever in the market for one I might look into it. Thanks for the response Loren.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View crank49's profile

crank49

3524 posts in 1724 days


#6 posted 07-17-2013 05:55 PM

Interesting question.
Not just here and wood working, but almost everything any of us purchase has a perceived value to the purchaser.The question of how to control this perceived value has always intrigued me.

If Baileigh wants to market themselves as producers of top quality machines, they will shoot themselves in the foot by pricing their product too low. On the other hand, if they price too high they will not sell enough product to get any market share. All this is a real problem for marketing any product.

I sell a product in my store for $40 that I pay $20 for. The product has very little intrinsic value, it’s mostly glass. It is a very exclusive product, designed and produced by artists in Europe, promoted and marketed aggressively by the producer, ads in major magazines, controlled pricing, etc. . I could have a similar product made in China for $0.50, Some discount stores are starting to get cheaply made Chinese product and sell it at about the same price as my cost for the real thing. Now, I buy for 20, sell for 40, that’s 100% markup. They buy for .50, sell for 20, that’s 2000% markup. Is my product 200 times better than the cheap knockoff Chinese product? Not really.

I think this has happened across the entire retail spectrum. Don’t know if there is a solution. But, it is at the core of why good quality, affordable tools are not made in this country any more. The only market left for quality products expects to see a high price.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#7 posted 07-17-2013 06:07 PM

Thanks for the reply Michael. Good perspective from a retail view. I certainly can see that issue as being difficult.

I really don’t know a ton about apples to apples with Baileigh vs the competition, but I believe they are manufacturing over seas just as Grizzly and others.

I know from our shops perspective, we retail custom cabinetry out to our customers. I believe I am currently at a competitive price point while not being the cheapest out there, but not the most expensive either. I sure would love to charge 1/3 more than I currently do, but at what sacrifice would I do so. I suspect no customer would hire us if we decided to price ourselves 1/3 higher than the competition, who actually can build as good as we can.

While pricing 1/3 more than my competition would certainly be enticing since it would mean more profit, I probably would just go out of business, plus I do not want to do what I consider would be gouging my customers.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

2764 posts in 1105 days


#8 posted 07-17-2013 06:30 PM

I don’t know how it works but I wish I did. It is hard to say w/ machines that have identical castings but wildly diverging prices. There are lot of things that us consumers are kept in the dark about. A lot of things w/ machinery can’t be seen like bearing quality, arbor runout, motor quality, etc., are these things that Baileigh attends to and the others do not? Or maybe it works something like this, a machine comes through and is rejected by Baileigh, does it then get painted green and sold as Grizzly or if rejected by Grizzly then get a Central Machinery sticker? These are very valid questions that manufacturers do their best to keep us in the dark about. They would rather try get us to buy on the basis of paint color than any real knowledge about quality vs price that rational consumers seek.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#9 posted 07-17-2013 06:34 PM

“Or maybe it works something like this, a machine comes through and is rejected by Baileigh, does it then get painted green and sold as Grizzly or if rejected by Grizzly then get a Central Machinery sticker?”

I do find that entertaining and gave me a nice laugh. :)

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View tefinn's profile

tefinn

1220 posts in 1190 days


#10 posted 07-17-2013 07:09 PM

“Or maybe it works something like this, a machine comes through and is rejected by Baileigh, does it then get painted green and sold as Grizzly or if rejected by Grizzly then get a Central Machinery sticker?”

I don’t know if it works like this in machine manufacturing, but it does in the food industry.

My Stepfather worked for Mrs. Paul’s in Philadelphia during his youth. When the product (such as onion rings) came down the line, if QC deemed them not up to standard, the product was rebagged as a lower brand. This is common in the food industry. Most factories make multiple brands of food and the only difference in those brands (usually store brand vs. name brand) is the quality of the product.

-- Tom Finnigan - Measures? We don't need no stinking measures! - Hmm, maybe thats why my project pieces don't fit.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#11 posted 07-17-2013 07:14 PM

that is interesting, I will keep that in mind the next time I am picking up the groceries. :)

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View Tennessee's profile

Tennessee

1583 posts in 1268 days


#12 posted 07-17-2013 07:47 PM

PurpleLev was probably the closest with his statement on QC levels. But other things exist. In China, over time you gain certain status with the government and your costs go down. You get better access to containers and more of them at a lower cost. You might start to get faster ships. Your container goes to the head of the line most of the time, eliminating dock fees. All these things add up.
If Grizzly is shipping ten times the amount that Baileigh is shipping, Grizzly will have reached a higher status that encompasses things like trucking discounts to the docks, faster “A” grade pass through on initial inspection on the Chinese side, more reliable workers with much longer tenures, etc. If they have no violations on the US side, they will get a faster pass-through and more train/trucking space to get their containers off the US docks sooner, eliminating fees. (Yes, they to charge to keep your container on the dock.)
It is doubtful that the machines are made in the exact same factories, that is rare. But it is common for designs to be the same, as some companies just buy multiple plans for a set of tools and market them. (See alibaba.com and other Asian sites with thousands of companies all doing the basic same thing.) I know that in about my tenth month in China, we achieved the “A” shipping status, which knocked a few hundred US dollars off each container. And we had settled on one trucking company that delivered all our goods to the docks, as well as brought in all our raw materials, with a good discount involved since we had paid off the owners in a new set of furniture for their houses. Turnover rates in employees dropped, and we just made the items faster and cheaper. Just the way it works…

-- Paul, Tennessee, http://www.tsunamiguitars.com

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2991 posts in 1997 days


#13 posted 07-17-2013 07:53 PM

I browsed through the on-line catalog and was impressed by the apparent quality of their offerings. Baileigh, unless I’m very mistaken, does not manufacture anything. They distribute a line of tools selected from worldwide manufacturers, most of which are from Asian countries. They are akin to Grizzly, unlike Delta and Powermatic who designed and built their own line of tools in their own factories, at least up until a few years ago.
Without seeing or using Baileigh tools personally, I can only guess as to their quality when compared to Grizzly, General and Jet. They do look good though and I hope they prove to be better than what is now available. Their higher cost may reflect better quality. It would be interesting to find out where their tools are made.

Let me put it this way. Would you be concerned if the auto club you belonged to was sponsored by Chevy and you own a Ford.

View TravisH's profile

TravisH

291 posts in 689 days


#14 posted 07-17-2013 08:54 PM

I have never understood why a company trying to sell a product will use the exact same plans to market something. In doing so you end up with questions like the original. If they used a different fence, cut the legs different, drill a hole here or there, etc… it avoids many of these questions. But when two companies are selling a what visually appears to be a photocopy of each other minus a paint scheme and sticker orientation it makes it hard to differentiate your product (whether your product is any better or not). Ideally a list of features/specs would be sure to point out the differences to distinguish the two in not doing so end ends up putting a consumer looking at price as the difference. When I was looking at contractor saws the Grizzly and Baileigh looked as if you could swap any of the visible parts in the pictures between the two without any issue. So that left price and historical performance as the only things one could compare.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#15 posted 07-18-2013 04:45 AM

Travis, I agree the equipment looks similar and my geuss is one is not greater than the other except the price tag. I own a 3 hp grizzly shaper, 3hp grizzly cabinet saw, and they are great for us.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View widdle's profile

widdle

1474 posts in 1752 days


#16 posted 07-18-2013 04:56 AM

I agree with bondo…All the reviews are soft ? Baleigh is probably regretting being involved in this forum..

View huff's profile

huff

2810 posts in 2039 days


#17 posted 07-18-2013 12:24 PM

Jerry,

I think you’ve answered your own question in your last post (#15). You own a couple Grizzly machines and seem to be very happy with them. If I remember right, you buy most of your equipment from auctions because of price and you’ve upgraded them (new motors, etc.) as needed.

If you found a Baileigh saw at an auction at a really good price; would you buy it? It really wouldn’t matter what the cost new is.

I know we’re trying to compare new machines to new machines and price to price and what is the difference in quality. I’m not sure anybody can answer that….......just opinions.

20 years ago Grizzly was a joke as far as making tools for the professional. They were pretty much a nobody that hung in there and slowly grew a strong customer base that will be hard to compete with today. They’re huge!

How does Grizzly compare in Metal working machinery compared to Baileigh. I don’t think they hold a candle.

I think Baileigh will have a long, slow road to travel before they get the right combination of marketing, quality, service and for most woodworkers; Price!

10 to 15 years from now, Baileigh will either be out of business or they will find their niche and give other manufacturers a run for their money. Since they already have a well established base for metal working machinery, I would bet they will be able to hang in there and find a way to compete with the others.

They’re definitely not afraid to step into the ring with the big boys. Again; I remember the days when Grizzly was a joke!

Think about your own business; is the only reason a customer buys from you is because of price. Do you really think that if you sell your cabinets for a higher price then the next guy it’s simply because it’s easy for the customer to see that you make a far superior product then anyone else and that’s why they buy?

We can talk quality, price, service and value all day long, but every customer will look at a product and decide what’s important to them. What they preceive as value versus price.

-- John @ http://www.thehuffordfurnituregroup.com

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#18 posted 07-18-2013 01:16 PM

Huff,

Very good points made. Yes I do much prefer auctions and is rare we would buy new, really could not afford to. Someday I suspect when budget permits we will buy a new 3 hp Sawstop (I appreciate the brake technology as we have a few who work with us), however if I find a sawstop at a good price at auction (machinerymax.com maybe) I will go that route instead since buying good used condition has served us well.

Yes buying used does create issues like having to buy new motors (have done that twice) but still ends up less costly than new in the long run.

I have not been around nearly long enough to recall Grizzly’s early days. It is cool to hear that history. And so I am sure they had it rough going in the early days. I would imagine most companies will need to take their lumps in the beginning and I believe Baileigh will be able to weather any early storms because of their metal working machines / following that should keep them afloat.

In the end it really is not my business as to their pricing since we are not looking at any new equipment at this time or anytime soon. I suppose I played devil’s advocate. Since they pop up in these threads enough to keep them in my mind I am driven to at least pry and look at their machines/web site, even though I am not in the market. And every since looking I have had that nagging question in my mind as to justification for their higher price.

I do believe some things such as having to pay higher dock fees, since being the new guy, may give valid reason for higher cost. There are likely a slew of honest and reasonable reasons their cost have to be higher.

Thanks for the response Huff, you made very valid points.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View huff's profile

huff

2810 posts in 2039 days


#19 posted 07-18-2013 01:44 PM

Hey Jerry,

Loved the pictures of your progress on your new shop. That’s going to be an awesome shop when finished.

-- John @ http://www.thehuffordfurnituregroup.com

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#20 posted 07-18-2013 02:04 PM

Thanks John, I could not be more excited. I am trying to be patient but I am getting excited.

This morning, and yesterday I have been working on bids / computer work so I am also getting opportunity to play here on LJ. :)

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View Aaron @ Baileigh's profile

Aaron @ Baileigh

24 posts in 610 days


#21 posted 07-18-2013 02:33 PM

To all, Baileigh Industrial woodworking equipment is in fact ‘new’ to the industry and therefore is not trying to come across as “experts” in this field. We do however, know machinery and what it takes to compete in a market that has been all but untouched by other brands in the last two decades or so. The success and quality of our metal machinery has been noticed and has put us on top in that industry. That did not happen overnight or by accident. The quality and service that we know customers are looking for is something that has driven our brand. We are striving to bring that same mentality and relationship to our wood machines. We are not going away and are driven to become a leading competitor in the woodworking industry. We welcome the feedback from all; positive and/or negative; as this is what we use (listening) to make the Baileigh name the best it can be. Thank you!

-- Aaron Cerkas acerkas@baileighindustrial.com 920-482-3238

View UpstateNYdude's profile

UpstateNYdude

490 posts in 736 days


#22 posted 07-18-2013 03:21 PM

I can tell you this, my Grizzly 3hp bandsaw is amazing and customer service is probably the best I’ve ever experienced, I had a small scuff on the paint and I called Customer Service and spoke with a real american english speaking person who took my serial # and shipped me the touch up paint, the next day it was on my doorstep. Their machines maybe manufactured overseas but what now a days isn’t, they work amazing and I just bought a 2hp DC, 15” spiral cutterhead planar and 8” spiral jointer, and any questions I have about setup or alignment or whatever they have real knowledgeable people there to take my question and I don’t have to listen to a foreigner who can barely speak the english language flip through a manual.

This goes for me but I don’t like to just buy equipment based on a name and a giant price tag but I care about the Customer Service and how quickly my parts or repairs will happen if or when my machine breaks down or I need help with it, and please don’t give me any crap that a name means quality and blah blah because I’ve seen Powermatic’s and Jet’s and Delta’s have problems right out of the box like any other company, quality and long lasting machines seems to be a long forgotten thing now a days.

Sorry for the rant…

-- Nick, “Discovering the truth about ourselves is a lifetime's work, but it's worth the effort.” ― Fred Rogers, Be My Neighbor

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

2253 posts in 2300 days


#23 posted 07-18-2013 03:27 PM

Thanks Aaron for the reply.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2991 posts in 1997 days


#24 posted 07-18-2013 05:27 PM

Buying used machines is like buying a used car. All the bugs have been worked out and depreciation has been addressed. One needs to keep in mind companies like Grizzly and Baileigh are very similar to Sears. They don’t manufacture anything, only distribute, so we never know where it came from. I know for a fact that some Harbor Freight tools are the same as “Shopfox” tools.

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2402 days


#25 posted 07-18-2013 05:48 PM

actually it’s mostly different companies making the same parts for different distributors – but they all share very similar/same castings (whoever makes the castings sells it to them all). each MFG uses those same castings to their tolerances and staying within their CQ allowances. that’s why products look similar to identical with only what appears to be different being the paint job, but if you’ll look closer you’ll see that the castings and parts come at different qualities (generally speaking).

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

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