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View FenceFurniture's profile

We've GOT to do something about Saw Files...and we can

by FenceFurniture
posted 430 days ago


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88 replies

88 replies so far

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#1 posted 429 days ago

Done.

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View Buckethead's profile

Buckethead

1920 posts in 500 days


#2 posted 429 days ago

I’m not an aficionado so I won’t comment on any technical aspects of this issue, but what I do see here is an opportunity for a group of like minded enthusiasts to take market share.

Our throw away economy has nearly run its course. Quality must come back into the market. Why insist others bring that quality? Why not take this opportunity to provide that quality and earn a profit as well?

I have not seen any discussion about the ready availability of quality saw files, but I’ve seen several just like this.

There is a demand. There must be a price point which that demand will support. It seems the larger companies have not reconciled the two.

Maybe look into becoming a provider yourselves? ( or maybe, our throw away culture won’t support the price point needed to supply the quality files?)

-- Bucket, any person that spends 10k on a bicycle is guaranteed to be a $@I almost started to like you. -bhog

View terryR's profile

terryR

3046 posts in 940 days


#3 posted 429 days ago

Petition signed.

Yep, if I had capital to invest, I’d make my own files. This disposible society isn’t working well…seen the national deficit lately? Making a quality tool takes little more natural resources, uses the same amount of electricity and man hours, produces the same amount of waste and hydrocarbons, but saves all the above since the tool lasts longer, fewer are needed to be made.

-- tr ...see one, do one, teach one...

View FenceFurniture's profile

FenceFurniture

36 posts in 1034 days


#4 posted 429 days ago

There is a much, much easier solution, and I have a cunning plan my Lords.

I just need hard data (signatures on a petition) to get it happening, I reckon. (can’t tell you everything all at once now, can I?:-)

-- PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION ON SAW FILES http://www.change.org/petitions/saw-file-manufacturers-please-make-quality-files-for-sharpening-handsaws

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#5 posted 429 days ago

Love me some cunning plans. Thread watched.

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View Wally331's profile

Wally331

255 posts in 657 days


#6 posted 429 days ago

Signed. Maybe we could get lie-nielsen to invest in some file making tools ;)

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

4835 posts in 1209 days


#7 posted 429 days ago

I like the way Wally’s thinking.

View Don W's profile

Don W

14874 posts in 1199 days


#8 posted 429 days ago

I signed. I’m thinking the current 58 won’t do it. Ate you putting it out to the other forums?

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View FenceFurniture's profile

FenceFurniture

36 posts in 1034 days


#9 posted 429 days ago

Sure am Don. It was always going to be 58 at some stage, even if it becomes 500 (which I think would be a good number, given the niche market) so don’t despair – spread the word. Email your buddies, yadda, yadda

Forums in mind are Woodnet & Sawmill Ck, and it’s already on talkFestool. I had a look at some UK forums, but there is little chatter about Saw Files, so motivating them could be tricky (or nigh on impossible, given the geography :-)

Any other suggestions?

-- PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION ON SAW FILES http://www.change.org/petitions/saw-file-manufacturers-please-make-quality-files-for-sharpening-handsaws

View Stephenw's profile

Stephenw

273 posts in 1017 days


#10 posted 429 days ago

I really don’t think most companies care.

I think companies like Apex tool group moved production to Mexico, Brazil, and China purely to maximize profit.

They are looking at the next balance sheet and their bonus check, not the long term.

http://www.apextoolgroup.com/brands-faceting

-- http://www.garagebulletin.com/

View FenceFurniture's profile

FenceFurniture

36 posts in 1034 days


#11 posted 429 days ago

Stephen, I’m not talking about big companies doing the manufacturing – I won’t bother with them for a moment – it was them that got us into this situation, so I hardly see the point in rewarding poor behaviour.

If a suitable current supply can’t be found (and I’m dead keen to see something from Tsubosan) then I will first be presenting the data to Liogier in France (who already make a range of “nearly there” saw files – but you won’t find them on the net, or anywhere else).

If they can’t be persuaded to make an extra €100k or more per year then I’ll go to Honauer in Switzerland. They currently do not have a range of saw files, and are willing to custom make to a standard of excellence.

It may transpire that even if the Tsubosan’s are good that another supplier is required because of language difficulties etc. To show what I mean, these are some quotes from their website:

“Conventionally, as the tip of the blade is processed by electrolytic polishing (PAT) and the sharp blade of the knife-like material is processed in advance, the concave part bosom is deep and suitable for the material that is easy to cause clog like stiffening plastic, bakelite, wood and other light metals.”

“It the industry first, we make both ends type file surface, made easy to guarantee the balance of suffering.”

I am also going to research if there would be any benefit in using Chrome Steel or not. I should think the additional cost would be irrelevant, as the cost of the steel would be a very small component in such small files.

-- PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION ON SAW FILES http://www.change.org/petitions/saw-file-manufacturers-please-make-quality-files-for-sharpening-handsaws

View FenceFurniture's profile

FenceFurniture

36 posts in 1034 days


#12 posted 427 days ago

I posted this news on the petition site today:

Thank you all for signing the Saw Files Petition.

I had a very interesting talk with one of the manufacturers in France last night. They already produce a range of “nearly there” Saw files (I knew this), and really only need some adjustments & include some Double Extra Slim Files to have a TOP NOTCH RANGE.

The main thing they need to correct is the taper, and corner radius consistency on the smallest files (sometimes excellent, sometimes no good). I have developed other tools with this manufacturer, and the latest is their new range of Floats for Planes and Joinery. This will increase to a range of 12-15 Floats in the coming months.

The most important thing to come out of the conversation is that they will be very responsive to public demand (i.e. Petition Signatures).

YOU CAN HELP EVEN MORE:
post a link to this petition & give it some publicity on your Woodwork Forum(s) of choice, or your own Website/Blog.

PLEASE – SPREAD THE WORD – WE ARE STARTING TO WIN ALREADY!

Regards
Brett

-- PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION ON SAW FILES http://www.change.org/petitions/saw-file-manufacturers-please-make-quality-files-for-sharpening-handsaws

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#13 posted 426 days ago

Brett – I somehow missed this thread until Marv over on Woodnet pointed it out. Thank you for taking the initiative on this. I also feel very strongly about it and thoroughly support your efforts. Petition signed.

I’d like to give you a suggestion. If you have a video camera, record a 5 minute video stating your case. It will spread like wild fire on YouTube. I uploaded a video on saw sharpening 3 weeks ago and it has already had over 3000 views.

If you need any help editing/posting the video, please let me know. I’d be happy to help/post it on YouTube.

By the way, leave the UK woodworkers to me. :o)

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View FenceFurniture's profile

FenceFurniture

36 posts in 1034 days


#14 posted 426 days ago

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

4835 posts in 1209 days


#15 posted 426 days ago

Amen!

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#16 posted 426 days ago

I’m going to do my best to get Paul Sellers on board. He has been very vocal on his blog about the quality of saw files these days and he has a big following on his blog. Hopefully he will get behind it too.

http://paulsellers.com/2012/05/saw-files-revisited-bahco-raises-the-bar/
http://paulsellers.com/2012/05/nicholson-saw-files-proving-ever-faulty/
http://paulsellers.com/2013/01/nicholson-saw-files-still-no-good/
http://paulsellers.com/2013/03/saw-files-saved-edges-and-recycling-files/

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View terryR's profile

terryR

3046 posts in 940 days


#17 posted 426 days ago

Amen, brother, Andy!

-- tr ...see one, do one, teach one...

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#18 posted 426 days ago

A(bloody)Men Andy!!

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View YanktonSD's profile (online now)

YanktonSD

190 posts in 1164 days


#19 posted 426 days ago

So there must be a strong case for finding old files that were manufactured 30+ years ago that are in good shape? right?

View FenceFurniture's profile

FenceFurniture

36 posts in 1034 days


#20 posted 426 days ago

YanktonSD, yes that’s right, but the problem is that there just ain’t enough to go around – get ‘em while you can. That’s why we have to get something decent made from now on.

Furthermore, with the continuing resurgence in Hand Tools (of all types) people just entering the Saw File market won’t be aware of the situation with the currently produced files, and will just purchase whatever they find. Then they’ll start to wonder why their filing skills are so poor because they’ve probably just made the saw worse than it ever was.

NOS files are only for the chosen few, and supply is getting harder and harder to find. It’s not easy. One of the biggest problems that I see with Ebay sellers is that they have little to no knowledge (by and large) of the incredibly intricate little tool that they are selling. It is FAR more complex than even some experts realise (and I’m not at all being critical there). It might be “just a file fer cryin’ out loud”, but there is a lot more to Saw Files than Engineer’s files – a helluva lot more.

I doubt very much that Ebay sellers know too much about: Single Cut Double Cut Cut 2 Proper Tapering (and why it’s necessary) tpi verses ppi etc etc

This has the effect of a newbie buying some files, stuffing the saw and giving up because they think the job is stratospherically out of their skills range, when in fact it should not be.

Here’s a really minute detail that surfaced only yesterday:
Old Saw Files still have faces that are untoothed for the last 10mm (1/2” close enough) of the toe, just like the current ones do. However, the edges of some the old files are toothed right to the tip. I had seen this and thought that it must have just been easier to produce them that way, with the machines of the time.

As it turns out, the corner toothing is there to whisk away any metal filings in the gullet at the start of each stroke so that everything is nice and clean for the next pass. As I say it is really fine detail, but it’s all of these little things that add to make a GREAT tool, not just an average tool.

Cheers
Brett

-- PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION ON SAW FILES http://www.change.org/petitions/saw-file-manufacturers-please-make-quality-files-for-sharpening-handsaws

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#21 posted 426 days ago

...and apart from anything else, don’t our children have a right to sharpen their own saws too? If we don’t jump up and down about this now on their behalf, the skill will die with us.

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View terryR's profile

terryR

3046 posts in 940 days


#22 posted 425 days ago

^That’s my fear, Andy.

I now have a dozen hand saws that I use…whenever the tempting bandsaw doesn’t entice me…One already needs a touch up, and others will, too, later this year. No way am I gonna keep paying shipping just to get a saw re- sharpened when a $6 file and some practice can solve my problem.

I predict with the increasing number of baby boomers now retiring, hand tool usage will increase exponentially in the next 10 years. We NEED a manufacturer who will make high quailty files now, so the younger generation can have saw files put in their hands now to learn…And skilled ol timers to teach them.

Or do we all have to buy new miter saws with replaceable (disposable) blades?

-- tr ...see one, do one, teach one...

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#23 posted 425 days ago

No giving up in this guy. Ill be the next generations pied piper as Andy has been to me.

There’s a growing resentment among my generation (im 33) to the disposable society of throw aways. Ive bought the disposable stuff before and now that im a bit older and wiser (not really) i wont make that mistake any more. Its gone for my lawn mower, leaf blower, string trimmer, appliances, and of course, my tools. With the price of living so high for people my age I cant afford to keep throwing things out when they break or become less sharp. I know ive got a bit of “old soul” in me and I intend on keeping those values alive, hopefully with my son.

Google cant sharpen a plane, chisel, or saw now can it?

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View terryR's profile

terryR

3046 posts in 940 days


#24 posted 425 days ago

I wouldn’t discount Google’s abilities, Stef. Maybe someone at the NSA will catch on to this thread and help us out!

No politics. :)

-- tr ...see one, do one, teach one...

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#25 posted 425 days ago

One thing I have learnt about the internet is that ‘crowdsourcing’ really can work. If enough people feel strongly about something, no matter what part of the globe they’re situated, there is a good chance that someone will sit up and listen, especially when you have someone as dedicated and capable as Brett at the helm.

Brett was kind enough to share some of his preliminary designs and thoughts with me privately and I have to say that I am extremely impressed.

Really it is very simple. We can either do nothing in which case we will continue to go backwards.

We can halfheartedly moan about the quality.

We can leave it to today’s file manufacturers to tell us what we need.

Or we can put our heads together and make a difference.

Why except less than the best experience?

LET’S GIVE A CRAP!!!

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#26 posted 424 days ago

Only 11 more petitionees needed to reach 300, although 500 is the magic number folks. Please add your support if you care about the availability of quality tools.

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View SASmith               's profile

SASmith

1571 posts in 1619 days


#27 posted 424 days ago

Done

-- Scott Smith, Southern Illinois

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#28 posted 424 days ago

Cheers Scott.

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View Richard's profile

Richard

400 posts in 1323 days


#29 posted 424 days ago

Signed.

-- "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

View rfusca's profile

rfusca

155 posts in 475 days


#30 posted 424 days ago

Signed.

-- Chris S., North Atlanta, GA - woodworker,DBA, cook, photographer

View CL810's profile

CL810

1967 posts in 1620 days


#31 posted 424 days ago

AMEN Brother Andy! Aaaaamen, aaaaaaaamen, amen, amen!

Say it again brother!

-- "It's amazing how much can go wrong when you think you know what you're doing."

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#32 posted 424 days ago

You guys are on Fire.

God bless America!!!

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#33 posted 424 days ago

And god bless the Queen!

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#34 posted 424 days ago

Got your files yet Stef?

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#35 posted 424 days ago

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#36 posted 424 days ago

This week Andy! Hoping for around wednesday. The distributor put their order in on Friday.

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#37 posted 424 days ago

That photo just says it all as far as I’m concerned Stef. BabyStef is counting on you and we’re right behind you buddy.

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#38 posted 424 days ago

303 supporters now. WOW! Only 197 needed to reach our target of 500.

CAN WE DO IT? YES WE CAN!!!

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#39 posted 423 days ago

182 to go.

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#40 posted 423 days ago

Some more information from Brett the petitioner:

By now, I guess you are aware of my goal – to get proper saw files made once more. This is being done in collaboration with people who really know what they are talking about (I’m a novice).

There are two distinct, and fairly evenly split camps on the vitues of a taper amongst these 15 experts. Those who want it back (as it used to be) and those who struggle to see the benefit. It comes down to personal preference, as Nicholson reflected in their 1942 Catalogue, and I quote:

“Handsaw Blunt Files are frequently preferred to Handsaw Taper Files by carpenters and other EXPERT saw filers for sharpening handsaws with 60° teeth. They are parallel in width and thickness but their tooth construction is identical with Handsaw Taper Files. Edges set and cut to file the gullets between the saw teeth.”

So, there has always been two camps. We should not forget a couple of very important points that are supremely relevant:
1. The were no power saws in those days, so saw filing was critically important, and was done by every professional woodworker on an almost daily basis (particularly here in Oz where they were using ultra hard timbers for housing construction during the MASSIVE housing boom after ww2)
2. The situation is now reversed so that most pros use power saws with TC tipped teeth, and it is primarily amateur woodworkers who are doing the saw filing. Only a few of this group can class themselves as “experts”.
What we can glean from that is that a parallel file is ONLY for experts, and so by default, a taper file must make things easier, or more reliable, in some way for the non-expert.

One of the collaborators is Mark Aylward (aka “Claw Hama” over here). He has been classically trained in the art of filing TWICE in two apprenticeships, and these days he is a professional woodworker. Mark is also an excellent lateral thinker (as Tradesmen tend to be). He just wants to get the job done.

His thoughts on the taper are as follows:
The taper serves several purposes as I have been told and taught over the years from my Grandfather, school teachers and reading material etc.

1. By placing the small tapered end in the gullet you can see the teeth, angles etc clearly before starting your stroke.

2. A constant even taper allows you to push through the full length of the stroke and keep even cutting pressure on the file and consequently the teeth. You don’t want a shoulder at some point along the way to change or alter your nice steady flow of your cut.

3. Even if filed badly there is still a good chance you will get a (leading) cutting edge on your tooth with the small built in fleam from the angle on the file. Even a Rip saw can commonly have 4° fleam, so 5° ish with the angle of the file. This small amount of fleam on a Rip saw is to help keep your saw cut clean and not too furry. Also once you have sharpened and set your saw you should do a light run down the edges with an oil or diamond stone to get rid of any little burrs or edges that may catch in your kerf.

All this is still on the side of the tooth on a rip saw when most/all of the cutting is done on the pitch/tip of the tooth with a Rip saw (as you all know) The angle of attack on this is adjusted with your rake angle. The tip of the tooth with a 4° fleam will have a slight angle across it but if you look at a lot of the high tech circular saw blades these days they have exactly that also. Shouldn’t make much difference one way or the other to your hand saw. (only my humble opinion).

In other words, as you start from the toe, by keeping constant force in the push, the file gradually begins removing metal on the way through, so the taper compensates for this ever increasing gullet width (microscopically) and so there is always constant contact and the same pressure being applied.

Of course I accept, as does Mark, that different people will have different positions on some of these finer points (e.g. fleam).

So, what is meant by a proper taper?

Here is a picture of three files. The middle one is from Claw Hama (so we don’t get our Marks confused). The two either side are a Grobet “Swiss” and an F.Dick and they were both delivered to me in the last week or so.

The middle file is a Wiltshire Austalia made around 1940-1950, and is Mark’s favourite file by far (although he can’t use it forever).

I’ll have a bit more to say about the Grobet & F.Dick, but for the moment let’s concentrate on the taper. Ok, ok, they have no taper to concentrate on, so let’s move on.

I think we can accept that Claw’s 1940 Wiltshire is the benchmark for taper shape. With that in mind I have measured the taper more thoroughly, dividing it into eight 10mm sections down the 80mm toothed area, and this shows that that taper is a very gentle curve, not a straight line. I did separate measurements for all three sides, and will show the averages.

Going from the shoulder down to the toe, the average angle of taper every 10mm is as follows:

0.2°
0.2°
0.3°
0.5°
0.9°
1.2°
1.7°
2.1°
and the average of the whole taper is 0.9°.

This shows that in the first third the taper is almost non-existent, starts to get going a bit in the middle third, building up to the maximum taper in the toe third. So no real surprise there, as it can be seen visually.

IMPORTANT: When I first started on this analytical journey a month ago, I couldn’t for the life of me see why the taper was so important to some people. However, when I saw what Claw was on about it came to me all at once: the taper compensates for metal loss as the stroke progresses and keeps everything even and constant throughout the stroke. Bleedin’ obvious when you see the real deal innit?

So yes, I am prepared to change my position in the face of supporting evidence and good argument. This is science, not stalwart opinion. I had originally planned to design a range of non-tapered files to present to the manufacturer, and they would have had a longer toothed area for each relative size, so that a good stroke length can be achieved – thus more efiicient. Not having a taper would also hhave meant that the number of different files could be significantly reduced (and that’s really complex and long winded to explain)

The situation now is that a proper taper range (with proper corner radii and toothing) will be the first priority, and blunt-end, untapered files will still be on the burner, but at a lower heat.

Cheers
Brett

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View LakeLover's profile

LakeLover

275 posts in 571 days


#41 posted 423 days ago

Signed.

Chris that was the best laugh I have had in a while!!!

View Airframer's profile

Airframer

2402 posts in 585 days


#42 posted 423 days ago

Signed.

As a case in point for the throw away direction in tools. Yesterday I finally broke down and set out to buy a new already sharp saw. I have about 4 vintage saws in need of sharpening to be useful but don’t have any files or the setup to sharpen them yet and needed a ready to go saw now. I know if I was willing to spend a lot of $$ I could get a good quality saw but I’m not that rich and I shouldn’t have to take out a loan to buy a hand saw INHO.

So off to the big orange store I go and ended up coming home with a new Stanley gen purpose saw for $12. The teeth are induction hardened so once it’s dull it goes in the trash. That is how they are all built now. Designed from the beginning to be tossed and a new one bought.

So basically the moral of the story is that the lack of saw files is just a small part of the bigger picture. If new saws cannot be sharpened why would they make files to sharpen saws with? The entire industry needs to take a second look at what they are doing.

-- Eric - http://theidiotgaloot.com

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#43 posted 423 days ago

I couldn’t agree more Eric. I think disposable saws have their place. When I was renovating my property, I bought a box of them. I didn’t care if I hit a nail or had to saw up close to brickwork. However, if you pick up one of them and then pick up any of my vintage saws, there really is no comparison. I’ll be filing saws till they nail up my box let me tell ya.

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

10694 posts in 1638 days


#44 posted 423 days ago

Then ill use one to cut that box back open and extract any knowledge i can Andy. Zombie Stef.

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View Tugboater78's profile

Tugboater78

940 posts in 824 days


#45 posted 423 days ago

signed

-- Justin - the tugboat woodworker - " nothing changed me like the first shnick from a well sharpened, decent hand plane"

View TobyC's profile

TobyC

476 posts in 507 days


#46 posted 423 days ago

You guys rock! We’re gonna do it!

Toby

-- Cigarettes and squirrels are completely harmless until you put one in your mouth and light it up.

View Brit's profile

Brit

5125 posts in 1474 days


#47 posted 421 days ago

Only 113 to go to reach 500 now. Thanks to everyone who has voted so far.

-- Andy -- Old Chinese proverb say: If you think something can't be done, don't interrupt man who is doing it.

View TobyC's profile

TobyC

476 posts in 507 days


#48 posted 421 days ago

Yeah! Tell your friends, they don’t have to be on a forum to sign on, just access to a computer or phone.

-- Cigarettes and squirrels are completely harmless until you put one in your mouth and light it up.

View TobyC's profile

TobyC

476 posts in 507 days


#49 posted 420 days ago

bump!

-- Cigarettes and squirrels are completely harmless until you put one in your mouth and light it up.

View terryR's profile

terryR

3046 posts in 940 days


#50 posted 419 days ago

How about if we ask our wifes to sign the petition? Since we live at the same address, will their signatures be discounted? (The wife and I kept our original last names.)

I KNOW my wife is sick of listening to me whine about the subject…

-- tr ...see one, do one, teach one...

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