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Hand plane question

by Friendlysb
posted 05-15-2013 03:37 PM


34 replies so far

View chrisstef's profile

chrisstef

11326 posts in 1723 days


#1 posted 05-15-2013 03:47 PM

What kind of wood are you working with? Sometimes on softer woods you can actually leave a indentation from trapping shavings under the sole of the plane. If its leaving a slightly raised area you might have a nick but sounds like you’ve mostly ruled that out.

Did you lap the sole of the plane?

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

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Mosquito

5017 posts in 1009 days


#2 posted 05-15-2013 03:50 PM

Happen to have any pictures of relevance? That would probably be helpful too :-)

-- Mos - Twin Cities, MN -- Stanley #45 Evangelist - www.youtube.com/MosquitoMods

View Don W's profile

Don W

15395 posts in 1285 days


#3 posted 05-15-2013 03:54 PM

did you flatten and polish the back? It will happen if there is imperfections in the back of the iron.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View JayT's profile

JayT

2523 posts in 928 days


#4 posted 05-15-2013 03:55 PM

lines that show up throughout the whole width of the path the plane went

I’m taking this to mean that the lines are perpendicular to the path of the plane. If that is correct then it sounds like chatter.

If the lines are parallel to the path of the plane then stef is on the right track.

+1 to Mos, pics would be very helpful.

-- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

View BBF's profile

BBF

141 posts in 556 days


#5 posted 05-15-2013 03:57 PM

Raise the blade up so that it does not tuch the wood and try again on a flat unmarked board. If the marks are still there you need to rework the sole of your plane.

-- I've never been disappointed buying quality but I have been disappointed buying good enough.

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#6 posted 05-15-2013 03:57 PM

I was planning Cherry and also soft maple. I will take picture in a bit to and post them for reference. With regards to the question about sole lapping, I did lap the sole starting out with 80 grit and went up too 220.

the whole reason I am started this was i keep hearing people talk about glass like finish and for the most part it is leaving a glass like finish but there are streaks of dull areas the track with the path of the iron. I really don’t know what to expect or to look for.

I just know that I enjoy using a hand plane and I hate sanding and I was hoping to keep sanding to a minimum.

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#7 posted 05-15-2013 04:12 PM

Jay T,
the lines are parallel to the path of the plane. It isn’t chatter. The shaving is also a full width shaving the whold length of my board. When I was playing around with it on the edge of the board there were times where their was a split in the shaving.

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#8 posted 05-15-2013 05:55 PM

Here is a picture of the face of the board I was using to just test out the plane. You can see the tracks on the right side near the edge. When I run my finger nail over the blade edge I don’t feel anything snagging my nail. I also don’t feel anything on the plane sole that would do this either. I retracted the blade as mentioned above and it didn’t leave tracks.

I am wondering if it is the way I am honing the blade that is causing this. I go side to side on one grit than I move up once I remove all scratches from the previous grit than switch to in and out on the next grit til I remove the side to side. I try to end up on side to side on the 2000 grit wet/dry paper.

View Don W's profile

Don W

15395 posts in 1285 days


#9 posted 05-15-2013 05:57 PM

hold your iron up to the light like you did the piece of wood with the back of the iron toward you and snap a picture.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#10 posted 05-15-2013 06:59 PM

Here are pics of the plane iron. It is really hard to get a good pic of it. I just went and resharpened the blade and it has improved but it still leaves really small lines almost like streaks. When I rub my nail across the board it doesn’t snag or anything. My fear is that if I got to finish with a board like this it will show up after the finish is applied.

I love this site, since everyone is so willing to help no matter how goofy a question is.

Thanks

View Smitty_Cabinetshop's profile (online now)

Smitty_Cabinetshop

10190 posts in 1336 days


#11 posted 05-15-2013 07:08 PM

Sure looks like a cut that’d result from an iron that’s pitted on the backside. But it’s clearly polished and not pitted.. Does material collect under the leading edge of the chipbreaker when you plane? How close to the cutting edge are you putting said breaker?

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. -- OldTools Archive

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Mosquito

5017 posts in 1009 days


#12 posted 05-15-2013 07:13 PM

When it comes to handplanes, there’s a crowd here that will do pretty much anything to help someone out with one :-)

The iron does look to me, like Smitty said, to be pretty well polished on the back. As long as it’s also completely flat, that doesn’t seem likely to be the culprit.

-- Mos - Twin Cities, MN -- Stanley #45 Evangelist - www.youtube.com/MosquitoMods

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JayT

2523 posts in 928 days


#13 posted 05-15-2013 07:17 PM

How many bevels do you have on the iron? The second pic looks like there is a primary bevel, secondary bevel and then a very small tertiary bevel.

-- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#14 posted 05-15-2013 07:26 PM

Nothing is collecting under the chip breaker. The breaker is seated pretty good over the iron . Will lines that small show up in finish?

With regards to bevels you are correct. 25 primary, 30 secondary, 32 ish tertiary bevel. I also did the ruler trick on the back side.

View JayT's profile

JayT

2523 posts in 928 days


#15 posted 05-15-2013 07:39 PM

I’ll tell you Steve, from what the pics show and you are doing, the iron should be good.

220 grit is definitely far enough to take the sole of the plane for flatness, but I’m wondering if there is still a small nick somewhere on the sole that is causing the tracks. Maybe one of the edges?

Edit: Probably obvious, but did you ease off the corners between where the sole and sides meet just a bit after flattening? A sharp edge there might mark up the wood.

-- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

View Don W's profile

Don W

15395 posts in 1285 days


#16 posted 05-15-2013 07:42 PM

do you have another Iron you can try?

3 bevels? I hate 2.

I find it hard to image it’s anything but the iron. Try dragging the iron backwards across the wood (out of the plane)

Also make a single stroke and match the scratch to the spot on the iron.

In one photo I see what looks like pit marks, but its impossible to tell.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Smitty_Cabinetshop's profile (online now)

Smitty_Cabinetshop

10190 posts in 1336 days


#17 posted 05-15-2013 07:44 PM

“The breaker is seated pretty good over the iron.”

Hmmmm….

Back the breaker off from the cutting edge of the iron a bit, you may have it too close to let shavings clear easily. Try looking at a 16th of an inch or so of your iron’s backside to be clear of breaker, then try some shavings.

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. -- OldTools Archive

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#18 posted 05-15-2013 08:07 PM

Don
I tried running the plane iron across the backside against the wood and it still leaves tracks. I swear all of my plane irons do the same. I think I need to rethink my sharpening system. I was thinking about going with a DMT duosharp diamond plate for lapping chisels and plane irons.

Does anyone have any thoughts. What would cause this in my sharpening?

View Don W's profile

Don W

15395 posts in 1285 days


#19 posted 05-15-2013 08:28 PM

well, at least we know its the iron now.

First, what is with With regards to bevels you are correct. 25 primary, 30 secondary, 32 ish tertiary bevel. I also did the ruler trick on the back side.

That’s 4 different bevels. I’d simplify that.

Next, make yourself a strop. I wonder if you don’t have some remaining burrs floating around with all the bevels.

I still can’t see how that can be your problem, after all, sharp is sharp.

How about a picture of your sharpening set up. If your using sandpaper on granite, 2000 grit paper, its hard to image this happening. Is you final polish wet or dry?

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View JayT's profile

JayT

2523 posts in 928 days


#20 posted 05-15-2013 08:47 PM

The good news is you found the problem with Don’s help. If you need to work on sharpening, join the club. I think everyone should continue to work on sharpening skill—no matter how good you are, you can still get better.

My suggestion echoes Don—simplify, simplify. Try sharpening with a single bevel, or at most a secondary microbevel and only go front to back. I’m not a fan of the side to side, because you are adding one more variable to your process. The only bevel that cuts is the last one, so don’t worry about re-grinding the primary bevel, just work on your cutting edge final bevel.

Don’s suggestion of a strop is very good. I know my results improved dramatically by adding that to my sharpening routine.

-- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#21 posted 05-15-2013 10:51 PM

With the bevels, everything I have read or seen on YouTube (rob cosman) . They like to do the 3 bevels. I think 2 bevels should be good enough and from everything I have read I don’t think sticking with 1 bevel is the way to go. It seems that it makes it easier to touch up the cutting edge when you have a secondary bevel. The reason I did 3 is to just try it out.

I thought about trying stropping, but when I was at woodcraft last the manager kind of talked me out of it.

I also think I am going to try front to back only. I have a feeling the side to side could be problematic since it is hard to hold constant pressure on the edge while honing. The logic in a fine wood working article showed going from side to side then front to back while progressing in grits.

I am a classic newbie with hand planes and I appreciate all the wisdom. By the way what are you guys using for sharpening.

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Mosquito

5017 posts in 1009 days


#22 posted 05-15-2013 11:04 PM

Sounds like you’ve got a few things to try out :-)

Oh boy, the “what do you use to sharpen” question has been thrown out there…

Guess I’ll chime in, I use DMT Duo-Sharp stones (I really only use the X-Fine) and then finish off with a 6000 grit waterstone, and a strop. I don’t really like the duo sharp, because it’s got the circles that make sharpening thin irons (narrow chisels, some plow plane blades, etc) difficult to do with out digging in to one of the circles. But the larger ones (which I have) are nice for plane blades, especially if you use a jig

-- Mos - Twin Cities, MN -- Stanley #45 Evangelist - www.youtube.com/MosquitoMods

View Don W's profile

Don W

15395 posts in 1285 days


#23 posted 05-15-2013 11:57 PM

I’ve got a set of DMT’s and can recommend them, although they are not part of my typical sharpening routine. I’ve got 2 grinders, a grizzly whet wheel and a regular 8” grinder. I love to hollow grind. I think its the only way to sharpen. The I have a hard oil stone I paid a few bucks for at a flea market. I would say it equivalent to an 8000 grit. I typically free hand but I own an eclipse style gig. I hollow grind with one of the 2, hit it with the oil stone, strop just to release the burr, and i’m done. The next several are just touch up’s on the oil stone.

I restore over 100 planes a years, so I do my share of sharpening. I don’t care for micro bevels and I hate blade were the ruler trick has been applied. Like I said before, I only use it if the iron is pitted so bad its the only way. Here is a blog I did on DMT sharpening.

That said, I don’t believe there is a right or wrong way, its whatever works for you.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

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BTimmons

2163 posts in 1202 days


#24 posted 05-16-2013 12:22 AM

Don, how do you like that Grizzly wet grinder? Seems like it would work similar to a Tormek, but it’s dramatically so much cheaper that I have to wonder how well it really works.

-- Brian Timmons - http://www.BigTWoodworks.com

View Don W's profile

Don W

15395 posts in 1285 days


#25 posted 05-16-2013 12:38 AM

Brian. Its ok. Its slow, but its great for resharpening. I bought it to fix all of the irons I need to fix, and I was disappointed at first, but I’ve devised a way to clamp the iron on the guide and just walk away. With the water bath I don’t need to worry about over heating, and I don’t need to stand there for 15 -20 minutes or longer to take out somebody else mistakes. It’s worth the money if your going to do a fair amount of sharpening.

I can also use the side of the stone to flatten really bad “out of flat” irons. I have to hold those though, I haven’t figured a way to clamp to the side of the stone yet :-).

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

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JayT

2523 posts in 928 days


#26 posted 05-16-2013 02:09 AM

I use a variable speed bench grinder for defining bevels, coarse and fine diamond stones, then finish on a 6000 waterstone and a strop. Touch ups only need the waterstone and strop or maybe the fine diamond if there is a nick to remove.

Kind of a hodge podge, but I had the diamond stones before getting into planes. Before getting the waterstone, I used sandpaper for the fine work. It worked fine, but the watersone is easier and better. I am seriously considering going to all diamond stones mounted on a board for ease and convenience.

I have an eclipse style jig that was used for quite a while, but now sharpen freehand and don’t worry about microbevels. Attending a Paul Sellers seminar at The Woodworking Show and seeing his setup and methods convinced me that freehand was both much faster and exact angles were not necessary. It is not that hard to develop the muscle memory and is totally worth it for the time savings alone. Plus having to set up the jig made me put off touching up irons & chisels. Now it is very quick to pop off the iron do a touch up (many times with strop only) and get back to work with a sharp edge.

As the others said there is no wrong way, it is whatever you are comfortable with and gives you good results.

-- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

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Friendlysb

28 posts in 751 days


#27 posted 05-19-2013 03:05 AM

I finally had time to get back to this site to respond. I ended up regrinding the plane iron back down so it now has only a primary bevel at 25 degrees and a secondary bevel at 30. It is cutting way cleaner, and is really sharp. I now have a couple of cuts on my hands.

Don, since you seem to be quit experienced with plane restoration do you have any thoughts on how to take a crown out of a plane sole? The other plane I am working on is a type 11 #3 plane. The sole is lose to flat from side to side with the sides falling off slightly. Right at the mouth the flat spot spans almost the full width of the blade. What is the best way to flatten the sole properly. I have been lapping the sole on my granite plate with sanding belt.

View RGtools's profile

RGtools

3312 posts in 1372 days


#28 posted 05-19-2013 03:14 AM

Uncrowining a plane sole can be pretty easy. Use narrow sandpaper tracks to selectively hit the crown and only the crown. When you have made a light hollow, flatten the sole as normal.

-- Make furniture that lasts as long as the tree - Ryan

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waho6o9

5187 posts in 1294 days


#29 posted 05-19-2013 03:20 AM

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/26023

A plethora of info on this epic thread.

Surgical edges work wonders.

View unbob's profile

unbob

431 posts in 621 days


#30 posted 05-19-2013 03:52 AM

I dont want to make anyone mad, just my opinion.
Using sand paper even on a granite surface plate, usually is not a good way to get things truly flat. It rounds up the edges.

I understand no one will likely do this. Use a granite plate, a little prussian blue dye, and hand scrape the high spots that show until an even pattern is across the surface, then the surface will be flat. Research machine way scraping if interested. Takes about 2hrs on a #8 plane to gain near perfection.

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Mosquito

5017 posts in 1009 days


#31 posted 05-19-2013 11:28 AM

actually, when you’re talking about the sole of a plane, rounding the edges isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Keeps the plane from digging in when you drag it across the surface, and helps glide over uneven spots better than a shark corner would.

For sharpening a blade with “scary sharp” methods, one can avoid that issue by only applying downward pressure on the blade on the pull stroke.

That’s a good tip though, unbob. I’ve never heard of trying that on a plane before

-- Mos - Twin Cities, MN -- Stanley #45 Evangelist - www.youtube.com/MosquitoMods

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Don W

15395 posts in 1285 days


#32 posted 05-19-2013 11:47 AM

I start with sandpaper on granite. If its bad enough its off to the belt sander. I always finish back on the granite.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

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RGtools

3312 posts in 1372 days


#33 posted 05-19-2013 01:41 PM

Unbob I will take a look at that. The edges being rounded on a handplane are not a big deal, but another way to flatten a sole is always worth looking into. Thanks for the advice.

-- Make furniture that lasts as long as the tree - Ryan

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unbob

431 posts in 621 days


#34 posted 05-19-2013 04:17 PM

Now just my opinion again! With some more thoughts.
I think its bad for the edges of the plane to be rolled up, making the sole convex. The plane will tend to roll over side to side slightly, causing the edges of the blade to dig in leaving lines in the work.
Often the blade edges are cambered alittle to compensate for that. If the sole is truly flat the blade will not have to be cambered at all.
The hand scraped flattened soles edges will not dig in to the wood, because there already is, or needs to be created a small radius along the sides and ends of the sole.
It would actually be better for the sole to be to be slightly concave, but, that causes the edges of the board to roll over when having the plane alittle off the edge of the wood.
When the sole is convex, and using the plane with the sole extending alittle over the side of a board, the edges of the board will show high because the force of planing will roll the plane inward.
“The planes sole is the only reference to the board being planed”.
This is what also happens when sanding a planes sole. The high spots will roll the planes surface over and material will be removed from the low spots. Then sort of a compounding problem requiring much more material to be removed then would be done by just knocking down the high spots to begin with.
These problems can be delt with by using many tricks during planing, skewing the plane during strokes and ect. But, if the planes sole is truly flat, the board will show true with straight strokes only.
Just one old guys opinion, probably best not listening to me!

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