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View Sarit's profile

Anyone try upgrading their HF DC impeller?

by Sarit
posted 04-09-2013 10:51 PM


37 replies so far

View Shawn Masterson's profile

Shawn Masterson

1262 posts in 635 days


#1 posted 04-09-2013 11:37 PM

on a well designed DC the impeller and blower housing are matched. The impeller is not in the center. It is offset to cause more of a spiral effect. If you go to Bill Pentz’s website he has a further more scientific explanation.

View crank49's profile

crank49

3456 posts in 1657 days


#2 posted 04-10-2013 01:22 AM

You are proposing something impossible.
Any one of the major components that make up the HF dust collector, if purchased saparately, would cost as much as you paid for the entire collector.
It would be like going to the auto parts store and buying a car, piece at a time. It would cost over $100,000.
And, what’s the point?
If you were to be phenomenally lucky and find an impellor that fit the motor shaft, and fit in the housing, and was larger in diameter, and you could afford it, I will gurantee that it will overload the motor under some operating situations.
Then when your motor fries what you going to do?

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#3 posted 04-10-2013 05:36 AM

Hi Shawn, crank49

“on a well designed DC” you are right. The problem is the HF DC is by many accounts not well designed. They are usually cheap ripoff of other DC designs. The impeller is way undersized for a 2HP motor. But being cheap also, makes them an attractive option for tinkering with. The going price for replacement impellers from grizzly and delta that I think might work are [$110-$136] and $82 respectively.
If you look at sites like ereplacementparts.com, you’ll see that the same impeller is often sold as a replacement for several DC models despite having different HP motors. Also most induction motors within the same HP range tend to have the same shaft diameter to fit within a NEMA standard.

I actually have another 2hp 240V motor that I got off of craigslist in case this one blows.

Update: I found this while I was writing this post:

…As Alan stated the impeller is smaller than most, measuring 9.75”, but the 12” impeller from a Rikon 60-200 DC is a perfect and easy direct fit replacement. It was $60 + shipping when I got mine.

I got this from comment #13
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?186964-Dust-Collector-One-6-quot-Intake-VS-Two-4-quot-Intakes

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

1885 posts in 1179 days


#4 posted 04-10-2013 11:15 AM

Sarit, I would think a 12” impeller would overwhelm that motor. Most 2 HP blowers come with the 12”, but the HF is more like a 1.5 HP, and those are usually sold with 11” impellers. Not trying to dissuade you from any plans, but give it careful consideration. I dod remember a guy who increased his impeller. Years ago some of the forums had a member with the screen name “Dizzy”. Dizzy was a talented metalworker/welder as well as a skilled woodworker. He took a Jet 1100 impeller and welded an extension on each vane (1/2” more, I think). Then carefully checked for imbalance (none) and motor overload (also none). Regardless, good luck with your quest….but if it were me, starting with a more capable unit would be a lot easier.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Cole Tallerman's profile

Cole Tallerman

392 posts in 871 days


#5 posted 04-10-2013 12:59 PM

That forum is saying that all or the HF impellers are backwards!

View crank49's profile

crank49

3456 posts in 1657 days


#6 posted 04-10-2013 03:12 PM

Some fans are designed with forward inclined vanes and some are straight or backward inclined. Can’t say they are made incorrectly unless you know what the original design was. The angle has a great deal to do with the volume v.s. pressure curves and also the capacity to run in different temperatures without overloading.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#7 posted 04-10-2013 03:30 PM

Yes, HF’s use forward-inclined fans whereas most use backward inclined or just straight radial fans. Forward inclines provide more flow at the expense of more HP and noise, but quickly lose their flow as pressure increases which makes them bad candidates if you plan to add things like cyclones or thein baffles and/or a duct network.

I’m not trying to do the impossible here, I just heard somewhere that someone actually did it. It was a simple drop in replacement and since I’ll be monitoring the amp draw I think there’s little to worry about. If it was any more work than that, then I would forget about it.

I’m hoping that someone who’s actually tried it, could chime in here to let us know about their experiences.

View REO's profile

REO

626 posts in 760 days


#8 posted 04-10-2013 11:30 PM

There is a lot to consider to be sure! what is the operating current draw of the present motor without any ducting either to or from the fan? I don’t believe the fan blade from grizzley was to heavy. it was trying to move to much air with the given power. the current is directly effected by the volume of air that it is moving and Inversely effected by pressure. it takes less current to run a plugged fan than it does to run an open one.different fan styles have different effects on pressure, volume and staying clean.
what part of performance are you hoping to make better? higher pressure(suction) or more volume. other things that change are the opening size and style. with the same fan housing and blade more air can be moved if there is a properly shaped inlet rather than a blunt square edge. also the amount of clearance between the fan blades and the entrance side of the housing is important. is the existing blade set to far back from the inlet surface. You may have seen where someone got lucky and found a “drop in upgrade” if you have please be sure to report your findings.

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#9 posted 04-11-2013 08:57 AM

The starting (0 rpm) current of any motor is going to be the highest current that it will ever see. It will almost always exceed the rated amp capacity of the amps on the motor plate. Also on 1 phase motors there is an extra starting coil that gets power until the centrifugal switch turns it off.
From my reading of the posts, I don’t believe they ever got the fan up to full operating speed such that the centrifugal switch would engage.

UPDATE: Someone on the other forum answered my question:
Hello, I have a HF DC with the Rikon 12” impeller installed. If you contact Rikon service you can order it, the model of their DC is the 60-200 and the part reference is #22. This easily slipped right onto the motor shaft.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=470.15

View mantwi's profile

mantwi

312 posts in 582 days


#10 posted 04-11-2013 01:33 PM

Here’s a link to a 5 video tutorial on a Thien separator that will increase performance without modifying the machine itself. I have built a cyclone before using plans in an old issue of Wood magazine and this will be a much easier build. It looks so simple it’s hard to believe it will actually work but seeing is believing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3RuKFqYHNQ&list=PLCF4F5C0912DA2031

View Alan72's profile

Alan72

99 posts in 719 days


#11 posted 05-01-2013 05:58 AM


!https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/mm3umm8.jr
I ordered the impeller from Rikon and recieved it last Friday. This is what I got when I opened the box the impeller is setup counter clockwise. The harbor freight DC impeller spins clockwise so I have to send it back. The one thing that is true is that it does fit in the DC but spins the wrong way, that’s sinks!

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#12 posted 05-02-2013 07:08 PM

No, the direction is the same, just the shape of the blades are different. The rikon is designed with the more popular backward-inclined fan blade design whereas the HF is using a forward-inclined design.

Just look at Rikon’s photo. The shape of the housing dictates which direction the impeller should spin. Since the housing is the same as the HF’s, then it spins in the same direction.

View crank49's profile

crank49

3456 posts in 1657 days


#13 posted 05-03-2013 01:22 AM

Backward inclined impellers have a wider tollerance for loading.
They trade a little volume capacity for stability.

The forward inclined impellers, like HF uses, get a little more air flow from a given horse power motor but can more easily be overloaded.

Overload situations to be careful of with forward inclined impellers, like HF, are running without a bag, opening up the inlet to let more air in, running on a cold day.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Alan72's profile

Alan72

99 posts in 719 days


#14 posted 05-06-2013 03:56 PM

I was wrong about the impeller! Sarit was right, I’m glad I didn’t send it back yet, I put on this past weekend. It took me a while because I didn’t realize I needed a puller to get the impeller off. I got the puller and the impeller was off within 30sec. Put the Rikon impeller on and turned it on. Big difference with suction, the hum of the dust collector is slightly louder and the start up of the impeller takes a second longer to bring up to full speed. I want to thank Sarit for making me realize that I was wrong about the impeller.

View boardmaker's profile

boardmaker

33 posts in 1323 days


#15 posted 05-07-2013 01:07 PM

Wondering how much the new implellor costs? If you don’t feel like posting it, would you message it to me. I’m interested possibly.

View TomB19's profile

TomB19

35 posts in 654 days


#16 posted 05-07-2013 05:18 PM

Alan72, did you get a current draw rating from before and after the impeller swap? That would be interesting to see.

View gmc's profile

gmc

15 posts in 843 days


#17 posted 05-08-2013 12:04 AM

Alan72, you have done a great job by not giving up. I have the same DC and have been watching closely. I would be interested to know the performance gain in your opinion, and weather or not you think the time and money spent were worth it. It is a great DC for us DIY who can’t justify spending the big bucks on dust collection, I would feel different if I did this for a living.

-- Gary, Central Illinois

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#18 posted 05-08-2013 04:18 AM

I’m so happy you were able to use the impeller, Alan72.

Yeah, the HF DC is one of those purchases that you can keep tinkering and upgrading. The simplest way of seeing how your changes affects the performance of the whole DC system IMO is to use one of these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/clamp-on-digital-multimeter-95683.html

so you can measure the amp draw. Higher amp draw means more CFM. I think that’s what TomB19 is getting at.

View RogerInColorado's profile

RogerInColorado

293 posts in 641 days


#19 posted 05-08-2013 05:02 AM

Alan72: I have read that people ordering the Rikon impeller had to provide a serial number of the machine it was going to be used on. I heard this most recently less than a month ago. Did you have to provide a serial number?

View Alan72's profile

Alan72

99 posts in 719 days


#20 posted 05-08-2013 09:07 PM

Sorry I been working the last few days and haven’t had a chance to respond. The impeller cost $60.00 wth shippiing, and another $6.00 for the puller. I was lucky, when you call Rikon to order make sure you don’t try to order it with guy, he told me that he didn’t want to be liable for selling the impeller if something goes wrong. I think that just BS, I called around 1300 EST and spoke to a young lady that help me order the part. I dont’ have the equipment to measure the amp output from one another, and I really don’t wan’t to spend the extra money to find out. It does take longer to bring up to full speed with the new Impeller. The suction from the collector has improved greatly! So far I’am very pleased with the upgrade and if you can manage to get the impeller I believe you would be just as happy with the increase performance of the DC.

View Shawn Masterson's profile

Shawn Masterson

1262 posts in 635 days


#21 posted 05-08-2013 10:48 PM

it is very stupid not to check the amps. if you are drawing at peak or higher then you will burn up the motor. when I built mine I had the intake cut out to 9” and watched the amps, they were 8 amps over. I covered the intake a little at a time and the amps started to come down. I reconfigured the intake so the amps were at 3 amps over it ended up being 7”. The reason I left them high is that once the cyclone and piping were added to the mix the amps were under the FLA rating on the motor. A DC blower draws its peek amps in it’s most open configuration.

View Alan72's profile

Alan72

99 posts in 719 days


#22 posted 07-02-2014 06:29 AM

I was looking through some of my old posted comments and I figured I would give an update too how well the Rikon impeller was doing. The HF dust collector is still running without any issues, I know the DC is drawing more amps at start up. I didn’t measure it yet but I did burn through 3 remote starters that I got from Home Depot. I did upgrade the dust collector to a Super Dust Deputy and have been getting good result . I use this DC at least 3-4 wk (emptying a 30 gallon drum of saw dust weekly) and still it keeps on running. For me I believe it was a good upgrade except for the burning out the 3 remote starts.

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#23 posted 07-06-2014 06:40 AM

Hi Alan,

Nice to see that your DC is working well.

View paullhf's profile

paullhf

5 posts in 72 days


#24 posted 08-10-2014 01:37 AM

Alan, I’m wondering if this system will work with a 2” hose system? Have you tried it at this smaller level? I have been in the process of converting mine to a canister collector but my work requires the use of 2’’ hoses. Does anyone know if this may work? Perhaps I will need to leave a “Y” open at the top to draw air in both a 2” line and a 4” vent?

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#25 posted 08-12-2014 05:13 AM

Usually 2” hoses are for shop vacs since they have the static pressure necessary to overcome the resistance in a 2” hose. DC’s provide lots of CFM, but only if you have very low resistance ductwork which is why they are always 4+ in in diameter.

View paullhf's profile

paullhf

5 posts in 72 days


#26 posted 08-18-2014 12:11 AM

It would be very awkward for me to use 4” hoses. My intent is to use the system with floor sanding equipment. The dustless systems that are out there use either 2” or 2.5”. I’ve tried a few, not happy as they either clog the hepa filter, have too small of a bag or are just too damn big…( like 2 55 gallon drums pust motor and blower.)
However since my last post I am looking at the leaf blowers as a idea that could be used. Air flow, even mulching fan blades on some. Although, that would not be needed as I plan on having the filters before the motor. This would also reduce the weight of the unit by quite a few pounds. Granted leaf blowers are a tad on the load side, but so is a drum sander with a 12 grit paper.

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#27 posted 08-18-2014 08:29 AM

Have you considered using a dust deputy on top of the 55 gal drum and then piped to a high performance shopvac? The dust deputy will separate most of the dust before it hits the HEPA filter. I’m actually using one now to vac all the drywall dust and I haven’t had to clean the filter after a day of sanding joint compound. Also there are some convertible shopvac/ leaf blowers out there that can be modified to work with the dust deputy so that everything is contained in the same unit.

View onesojourner's profile

onesojourner

41 posts in 402 days


#28 posted 08-18-2014 07:00 PM

I would like to know how this goes. The harbor freight 2hp (and I doubt that, probably more like 1.5hp) did absolutely terrible in the reviews I’ve seen. At what point is is more cost effective to just get a grizzly or a jet?

-- http://icftfsystemshome.blogspot.com/

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

3496 posts in 2647 days


#29 posted 08-18-2014 07:52 PM

This whole DC issue is makin’ my head hurt.
If ya buy/have a HF DC, use good bags, good hoses, it will do what it is intended.
Those who want to take a $200.00 +_ DC and turn it into a $500.00 DC could be better served if they just bought a better in the first place.
Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.
Mine, with good bags, keeps my shop clean.
How many more hours are we gonna spend on this issue?
Bill

-- bill@magraphics.us

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#30 posted 08-19-2014 05:31 PM

Well I got my HF DC for $139 with one of those coupons in the diy magazines. If I upgrade the impeller for $60 then I should get Rikon like performance for about half the cost. You can then add a .5 micron filter cartridge for $115. Add a thien baffle or pentz homemade cyclone and you will have a pretty high performance system for not a lot of cash.

The best part is that you need not put all the cash up front. Just upgrade as your needs and budget require.

View Alan72's profile

Alan72

99 posts in 719 days


#31 posted 08-19-2014 06:34 PM

My first dust collector was a Delta 1 hr with a filter. It worked great, I kept hearing a lot of good things about the HF DC. I bought mine used for $80.00 put a Rikon impeller $60.00, new filter bag $40.00 and a Super Dust deputy $180.00 and another $50.00 for hoses. Sold the Delta and have no regrets. In fact, writing this I realized that my SDD cost more than the DC and Impeller upgrade. I like the HF Dc so much if the motor burns out I would buy a new one and just change out the impeller.

View paullhf's profile

paullhf

5 posts in 72 days


#32 posted 09-05-2014 01:36 PM

I haven’t look at a dust deputy system..(yet), how ever my 20” U.F.O. from U.S. Sanders cutting with 80 and 100 grit screens produces a vast amount of very fine dust. Much like sheet rock dust but lighter. This is where I found a unprotected hepa filter to clog. I have purchased a workforce blower/vvac at a very nice price.(display model with parts that I didn’t need, missing). It’s rated at some 340 cfm, which if true is better than Oneida”s Cobra system at 240 cfm. So now it’s time to cut some drums and add some inlets and things like that. Will be posting how this goes but it will not be all done today, that’s for sure.

View paullhf's profile

paullhf

5 posts in 72 days


#33 posted 09-05-2014 01:48 PM

Just look at the dust deputy. I did look at it before, it just wasn’t worth remembering I guess. My drum sander & belsander well, either one would fill it in 15 minutes or so. Which is why I didn’t give that system much thought, The Oneida cobra also needs a second “stage ” added to it when running machines like the American floor crafter. Something about relieving air from the machine’s own fan system. Or somthing to that effect. Another reason that a higher cfm motor might be a better system.

View timbertailor's profile

timbertailor

822 posts in 110 days


#34 posted 09-05-2014 01:56 PM



I would like to know how this goes. The harbor freight 2hp (and I doubt that, probably more like 1.5hp) did absolutely terrible in the reviews I ve seen. At what point is is more cost effective to just get a grizzly or a jet?

- onesojourner

The performance on the HF unit greatly increases with the addtion of a Wynn Environmental Filter. These charts are pretty useless once improvements are made to offset the use of a Thien or comparable dust separator.

-- Brad, Texas, https://www.youtube.com/user/tonkatoytruck/feed

View buildingmonkey's profile

buildingmonkey

127 posts in 234 days


#35 posted 09-05-2014 11:30 PM

Is that a 12” impeller? Read another thread somewhere where someone put a Jet 12” impeller in their HF DC.

-- Jim from Kansas

View Sarit's profile

Sarit

487 posts in 1826 days


#36 posted 09-06-2014 03:04 AM

Hi Paullhf,

Comparing cfm isn’t a really useful metric by itself. Its sort of like how they use HP to compare vacuum motors. Or comparing gas engines by how much torque is produced. In this case CFM is often measured in free air with no hoses attached. To get a real idea of performance you need a fan curve chart that shows CFM vs static pressure.

About the dust deputy, you can purchase just the top portion and mount it to any container, even a 55g drum.

The Oneida Cobra seems like a great solution for your use case. The internal filter cleaner and RRP compliance are big plusses. If you go with the WorX you will still need some sort of cyclonic separator and HEPA filter which might not be easy to retrofit.

Another alternative is something like a Festool Cleantex + Dust Deputy Ultimate

It really depends on what your budget is and how much dust the sander produces. Remember w/ the cyclone you can fill the entire collection tank/bucket up to the brim, unlike a traditional shop vac that clogs the filter with just an inch of dust.

View paullhf's profile

paullhf

5 posts in 72 days


#37 posted 09-29-2014 01:38 PM

Sarit. I’ve been working on my dust collector these last few days, on and off. CFM’s really aren’t the best way to judge because you don’t know where or how a company comes up with it’s “magic” number, I know this. But it’s a starting point. Like I said it was their numbers. As for the deputy, I am sure it will work for most people very well.But it is the smaller brother of Oneida”s Cobra. A good machine, lotsa people like them too
But from a lay man’s point of view, and still a few days off from a true test under live fire and real working conditions, I think I might be on track here. With a three inch inlet (and the machine on), there seems to be a greater suction than I was expecting. With fifty feet of 2’‘hose, I have no problem ingesting large stones over 1 1/2’’ off the ground.
I do not have a means of measuring cfm or static pressure however this idea of mine does suck in a very good way. As for why starting with a three inch inlet, well that’s what the motor came with. I did reserve a option to run with two 2’’ lines as it might be useful in the “field”. I am still in trials with the best filter-collection phase. I have three filter combo’s in mind that should work either in a 2 stage or maybe 3 stage system. But I will not know until I put it through it’s “sea trials” and to see how it preforms under fire in the real world.
But regardless how it works out, I’ve had fun with this project. If it works then I will be very happy. If it doesn’t then I’ll bite the bullet, buy something that I don’t really like until I and either buy a working system I like or Frankenstein something else that will work better. Either way next posting should be in a few days/week or so…

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