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View Ziffster's profile

Best Dust Collection < $750?

by Ziffster
posted 03-20-2013 02:26 PM


24 replies so far

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5069 posts in 2611 days


#1 posted 03-20-2013 02:47 PM

I wish you luck with your search, but I’m not sure you can buy a turn key system that delivers that performance at that price range. I’m guessing you will increase the investment, or build your own. You can get the needed blower parts from Clearview, and fab the Pentz cyclone. I have no idea what region of the country of the country you’re in, but maybe consider venting outside? That eliminates the lack of clarity about filters.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View RockyTopScott's profile

RockyTopScott

1186 posts in 3597 days


#2 posted 03-20-2013 03:10 PM

This is what I am considering:

Harbor Freight 2hp DC – $200
Wynn Filter – $170
Super Dust Deputy – $170
Global Industries 30 Gallon Plastic Barrel – $80
Total – $620

-- “When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.” ― Thomas Sowell

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 2100 days


#3 posted 03-20-2013 03:19 PM

I’m disapointed that no one here mentions the Thien baffle. Personally I don’t care for Oneida, and Pentz is too mind numbing, plus his health scare sales tactics turn me off as much as SawStop does.

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 2191 days


#4 posted 03-20-2013 03:25 PM

cragslist!!!!

-- Who is John Galt?

View BTimmons's profile

BTimmons

2303 posts in 2603 days


#5 posted 03-20-2013 04:00 PM

The latest issue of Fine Woodworking (not sure which issue number) had a great article on dust collection. Lots of comparisons between basic models complete with graphs that included suction over time with and without pre-separators like Thien baffles.

-- Brian Timmons - http://www.BigTWoodworks.com

View Ziffster's profile

Ziffster

27 posts in 2013 days


#6 posted 03-20-2013 04:03 PM

Do any of the manufacturers provide performance curves for their DC (suction head versus CFM)?

I was leaning towards a solution along the lines of RockyTopScott at least for now.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 2100 days


#7 posted 03-20-2013 04:11 PM

Harbor Freight is over rated bottom of the barrel junk. You’d probably be better off keeping your current DC and looking over your ducting a little better to make sure that it’s efficient. But since you don’t provide pictures I don’t know what you have going on.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5069 posts in 2611 days


#8 posted 03-20-2013 04:23 PM

Some have true fan curves, 2 that I think do so Oneida, and Penn State. At least they used to, there may be a few others but that’s apparently top secret (or embarrassing) information.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Woodmaster1's profile

Woodmaster1

1038 posts in 2705 days


#9 posted 03-20-2013 04:31 PM

I have the grizzly 0548zp. It has 2hp, canister filter,12 3/4 impeller, 1700cfm, 220v and is 524.00 shipped. I find that it works great for me.

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1240 posts in 2113 days


#10 posted 03-20-2013 04:31 PM

I think you have to decide what your priorities are. You, like me, are on a small budget. Mine even smaller than yours, in fact. So where I’m at is this: some dust collection is better than no dust collection. The next step is (IMO) – finer filtration is better than coarser filtration. After that – emptying drums is better than messing with that d*mn bag. Beyond that, the system can be optimized with various baffles, etc., to get the last bit of performance out of it. However, as an engineer you know that the last 10-20% of the performance can cost 80% of the total project.

So I opted for the afore described ‘over rated bottom of the barrel junk’ (:eyeroll) dust collector, with plans to update the filter first, then add pre-fan separation eventually.

As far as the info provided by the dust collection zealots, well, it is just that. Zealocy. That doesnt necessarily mean it isn’t somewhat or even mostly correct, but it is slanted and very absolutist. The information breeds fear, is hard to argue with (isn’t more filtration/efficiencty BETTER than less? of course, but how much is really enough? The data is not truly there to answer that), and then gets repeated over and over so as to seem like it is group consensus. I guess my point is, don’t let the thought that ‘inadequate’ dust collection is worse for you than no dust collection factor in to your decision. Some is better than none, and improvements can be made in the future. The true definition of ‘inadequate’ is far from answered in my mind.

-Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View Shawn Masterson's profile

Shawn Masterson

1325 posts in 2067 days


#11 posted 03-20-2013 05:00 PM

If you contact bill pentz via his website he has all his own test results. I’m sure he will share it with you if you ask.

View toolie's profile

toolie

2143 posts in 2747 days


#12 posted 03-20-2013 05:08 PM

the 05/13 issue of wood also has a test of single stage and cyclone Dcs. a powermatic single stage and an oneida cyclone were rated top tools.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 3766 days


#13 posted 03-20-2013 05:09 PM

The best bang for your buck is to find a way to put the
filter outside.

I have a shop built cyclone I bought from a guy who
built it from plans in Wood Magazine. I wouldn’t
compare it to a $1000 unit, and I like it because
it takes up so little floor space – but, it is sensitive
to clogging with planer chips and when it does
start to clog, more material goes into the filter
and that causes filter clogging.

I’d rather have a bag house filter.

I had a regular bag type dust collector before and
my annoyances with it were primarily due to not
having it permanently set up. I had a trash can
pre-separator that worked very, very well. The
downside was the awkward footprint and hoses
sticking up and popping loose occasionally.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 2100 days


#14 posted 03-20-2013 05:13 PM

Brian, if you red his original post you would know that he allready has a suposed 1700 CFM dust collector. So I don’t know why you had to make the comment of don’t let the thought that ‘inadequate’ dust collection is worse for you than no dust collection, he allready has a DC that draws more CFM then the 2 hp HF DC.

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1240 posts in 2113 days


#15 posted 03-20-2013 05:56 PM

SawSucker,

Sounds to me like he is looking to replace, or at the very least significantly modify his current set up. My post was not intended to tell him to buy the HF unit, but more to suggest that he may not be able to get everything he wants up front within that budget. I explained my budget (more limited than his) and my decision making/upgrade path to get to my eventual goal. I also know I’m not the only guy out there just getting dust collection, so perhaps it will help others in addition to the OP. The last bits of performance are the most expensive, and those of us on budgets must then prioritize what we are going after first.

I won’t begrudge you your feelings on HF tools. They are not for everyone. I have bought several and some have been great, some not so great, and some works in progress. But I know what I’m getting in to going in.

Shawn,

I have seen some of the Pentz data reposted various places. Its good data and seems pretty solid. But having been involved with industrial hygene through my work at various times I have seen other data sets that are supportive, and some that arent (in regards to how dust causes health concerns). This is typical of science in a certain stage of its development. All I’m really saying is that all the data is not in, and the real problem I have with it is people that say ‘if you don’t have X filtration, you’re going to die!!!’ Particularly when it is followed by ‘buy my solution to your problem’. (I’m not saying that’s the case with Pentz himself, but it is the case with some people who regurgitate his data). Its pretty easy to say that the more filtration you have, the less risk you have. I’m always afraid people are turning away from systems because ones that meet the much repeated requirements cost $1500, when they would certainly be better off with a $200 unit than nothing at all.

Anyway, getting back to the OP – the easiest way to ensure you get a good filter is to find one with an actual MERV rating. These are tested against a known standard. They can be hard to find, and you do pay more for them. I have been looking at the new one from Wynn that is MERV 15 rated. Just need to get the funds together sometime.

-Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 2100 days


#16 posted 03-20-2013 06:06 PM

I would recommend what I have for a DC as a best bang for the buck, but I would only recommend it in the portable dc category, not for a ducted system, which is what he is looking for.

View Ziffster's profile

Ziffster

27 posts in 2013 days


#17 posted 03-20-2013 10:54 PM

Thanks guys, I don’t know where my head has been. I think the following would be my best action plan:

Revamp my duct work to get the head loss under control.
Replace the 30 micron bag on my DC with a cartridge filter (like the Wynn).
Improve large particle separation with the PopularWoodworking ‘Wok’ Mod to my existing DC.

Then save my pennies for an eventual vortex DC.

View toolie's profile

toolie

2143 posts in 2747 days


#18 posted 03-20-2013 11:18 PM

i don’t think there’s much to be gained in upgrading from a modified single stage dc to a “vortex” unit. they both do the same thing, as does an internal thien baffle.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

View gtbuzz's profile

gtbuzz

427 posts in 2560 days


#19 posted 03-21-2013 01:13 AM

I’d stay away from the vortex, I don’t think there would be any gain over modding your existing setup. While it works, I think it’s a gimmick at best simply because you could do the same thing yourself to pretty much any DC out there for far less with a Thien baffle and it will probably perform better.

I put wok shaped baffle into my Jet DC1100 ring and, while it definitely left the filter cleaner than not having it there, I’d describe the performance as OK as best. Later on, I replaced the wok with a Thien style baffle inside the ring and that worked MUCH better. While I liked the idea of an internal separator to try to avoid the static pressure hit, I ended up going with a pre-separator in the end because I sucked one too many large things into my impeller (was me being careless). A jar of Shellawax was the nail in that coffin…

As far as filter efficiency goes, there’s a good article in this month’s FWW (as BTimmons said). There’s an easy answer though – just go with a Wynn nano filter. All their nano cartridges carry a MERV 15 rating, which is an independent, quantifiable rating. You may be surprised, but if you switch from 30 micron bags to an efficient filter, your dust collector is likely to breathe easier because there’s far more filter area. While you’d have a slight reduction in CFM from a pre-separator, it will help in the long run by keeping the filter clean and unclogged.

What dust collector are you currently using? I’m not gonna go as far as SawSucker and say it’s bottom of the barrel junk, but I’d be surprised if your 1700cfm unit is going to be outperformed by the HF. If you’re rocking some 3/4 horse unit, then it’s probably a different story, but none of those will be rated at 1700cfm.

I like the idea of a modded HF unit as it provides a reasonably low cost of entry for decent dust collection, but it’s no world beater as far as performance goes. If you’re in that situation though, unless your budget is really stretched, you’re really better off with a Delta 50-760; When all is said and done, it’s only about $200-$250 more and the form factor is very easy for adapting a Thien separator.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 2100 days


#20 posted 03-21-2013 01:55 AM

I’m not gonna go as far as SawSucker and say it’s bottom of the barrel junk. Where else are you going to find a cheaper made 2hp DC ? And I don’t know if HF still uses a plastic impeller, but I know at one time they did. Now thats cheap. You’re really better off with a Delta 50-760. I have a Delta 50-760 that I upgraded the stand and added an onboard Separator with a Thien baffle. Best bang for the buck in a portable 1 1/2 hp DC in my opinion, and it comes with a 1 micron felt bag. The HF is probably realistically a 1 1/2 hp also, and in my opinion 1 1/2 hp for a ducted system is pushing it. and probably wouldn’t be enough for as long of ducting runs that Ziffster has. Which he should check for leaks, and get rid of any sharp radius elbows and T’s. Large radius elbows and Wye’s are the way to go.

View darthford's profile

darthford

611 posts in 2042 days


#21 posted 03-21-2013 04:19 AM

JDS cartridge filter unit, I owned one a bit loud but got the job done nicely $619. My new dust collector arrived today, Grizzly 2 stage cyclone $795 + $100 for the 220vac conversion kit.

http://jdstools.com/1.5hp-dust-force-1micron-canister-1250cfm-dust-collector.aspx

View kizerpea's profile

kizerpea

775 posts in 2486 days


#22 posted 03-21-2013 12:22 PM

Well heres my 2 cents…built my own..2hp jet blower..built the cyclone to….an the filter housing….30 ft of 6” pipe with a 15” grizz planer at the very end..tryed to chock it up by sucking right out of the chip drum..nope hasn,t happend yet …every thing is in my projects…bought the plan from wood mag an super sized it…yes i,m under your $750 budget…an i,m not a engineer….but i do have a mcgiver hand book….the filter system works great..shipwright built one to…good luck steve

-- IF YOUR NOT MAKING DUST...YOU ARE COLLECTING IT! SOUTH CAROLINA.

View NGK's profile

NGK

93 posts in 2029 days


#23 posted 03-21-2013 08:08 PM

Ten years ago I retired as a vocational educator. I moved to a larger city (grandkids) and built my own 32 X 32 shop with three attached storage rooms. I wanted to upgrade my dust collection so I bought a 2-horse 220-volt motor with impeller from Penn State. I think the inlet is 8 inches and the outlet is 7.

I hired a former student who had obtained an engineering degree from the Univ. of Illinois who returned to my town to work in the family heating and A/C business. I hired him to make me a cyclone per by specifications. Nothing unique. Just a cylinder at the top with a funnel-shaped drop which I attached to the top of a 55-gallon metal barrel, via a flat piece of 3/4 plywood. Cost for material and labor for the cyclone—$80.

I put the motor and impellor in one of the storage rooms, than ran the return back into the shop to avoid loss of heat in winter and A/C in summer. The motor in another room gets rid of a lot of the noise. In addition I attached a muffler (under $80 from Penn State) which further reduces the noise by half.

Then I split the pipe, running half of the exhaust into my old dust collector bag and half into the top portion of a cut-off 30 gallon barrel, mounted high. From the barrel I attached via band strip a bag about 28-30 inches in diameter a bag extending clear down to the floor, about 7 feet. You need to have enough breathing room to keep your cfm’s high. I get the quality bags from American Filter Fabrication in Florida. They advertise in the back of almost all woodworking magazines.

My pipe runs are high against the walls, with 4-inch drop-downs via Y-joints. I am lucky enough to have a distributor of the metal spiral pipe 2 miles from my location. Plus the former student had a lot of piping, elbows, y-fitting, big blast gates, and sweeping elbows from a tear-out job (which he gave to me free). I have 4-inch drop-down plastic tubing by every needed machine in my shop, plus a few extras which are unused and capped off. I run the typing and tools down one wall and across another, with a y-branch over to the centrally located table saw, downdraft sanding station, and 37-inch Performax drum sander.

My total cost is about $800, compared to the $1200 to $1500 most others in my local club have paid. I use caulk at all joints and/or silver foil joint tape. With metal piping I don’t worry about static electricity. In ten years of use I have not had a plug-up.

View Ziffster's profile

Ziffster

27 posts in 2013 days


#24 posted 03-21-2013 09:17 PM

Does anyone selling in the North American market offer a Bin Style DC (other than the Vortex Vendors) like the one pictured below from Europe?

Interestingly, in Europe wood dust seems to be taken more seriously than over here – even workshop tools have to be certified as to their ability to capture dust when connected to a suitable dust collector (maybe it will translate into a Miter saw design which actually captures more than it spews).

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