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Which Saw? (Dare I ask?)

by Lumberpunk
posted 03-01-2013 02:00 AM


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57 replies

57 replies so far

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

5512 posts in 2060 days


#1 posted 03-01-2013 02:09 AM

The “General” saws, are “General International”, not to be confused with the legendary Canadian made General line owned by the same family company. Still good contractor saws with good fences, but are an older technology with no riving knife and outboard motors, so I think $500 is on the steep side. The Delta could be a really nice deal if it’s in decent shape…it’s likely a 36-717 hybrid. The R4511 and Delta could both be good deals….you might consider buying both, putting the Biese on the R4511 and reselling the Delta with the R4511’s fence.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View darthford's profile

darthford

532 posts in 609 days


#2 posted 03-01-2013 03:46 AM

FYI on the Rigid, “This saw was recently recalled for faulty blade arbors. Apparently the blade arbor can break when the saw is equipped with a dado set. Saws affected have date codes between CD0829 and CD0837 and were sold at Home Depot stores between January 2009 and July 2009 for approximately $600.”

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#3 posted 03-01-2013 03:47 AM

The “General” saws are good contractor saws with good fences, but are an older technology with no riving knife and outboard motors, if so I think $500 is on the steep side. Typical Contractor’s saw nit picking. Considering that most people never have installed the splitter on their table saws, in my opinion the Riving knife isn’t a deal breaker, and neither is a motor hanging out the back. Most people use an outfeed table or roller stand out the back of the saw, so where is the real estate lost ? The Delta could be a really nice deal if it’s in decent shape, it’s likely a 36-717 hybrid. The R4511 and Delta could both be good deals. You might consider buying both, putting the Biese on the R4511 and reselling the Delta with the R4511’s fence. I also don’t understand the logic in that statement. Are you trying to tell us that the Ridgid R4511 is a better saw then the Delta 36-717 Hybrid ? I’d have to disagree. Buy the Delta 36-717 with the Biesemeyer fence.

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#4 posted 03-01-2013 04:32 AM

Sorry I was wrong about the Hybrid it is not a 36-717 i think it is a 34-444 photo is very blurry

View Smitty_Cabinetshop's profile

Smitty_Cabinetshop

10029 posts in 1303 days


#5 posted 03-01-2013 04:34 AM

I was going to say Disston, maybe a 12pt, filed rip. But it wasn’t a choice. Sorry, I’l leave now. :-)

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. -- OldTools Archive

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Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#6 posted 03-01-2013 04:42 AM

Funny I actually used my hand saw to cut wood today, doesn’t happen very often.

View Smitty_Cabinetshop's profile

Smitty_Cabinetshop

10029 posts in 1303 days


#7 posted 03-01-2013 04:45 AM

Well then, I wasn’t that far off!

Thanks, L, for taking the laugh the way it was intended. I’ll leave quietly now, good luck with your choice! :-)

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. -- OldTools Archive

View Dvalery20's profile

Dvalery20

3 posts in 1314 days


#8 posted 03-01-2013 08:25 AM

Just go on Craigslist and find an old Unisaw, they go for like $300.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

5512 posts in 2060 days


#9 posted 03-01-2013 10:59 AM

”Are you trying to tell us that the Ridgid R4511 is a better saw then the Delta 36-717 Hybrid ? I’d have to disagree. Buy the Delta 36-717 with the Biesemeyer fence. ”

Yes, in some ways….regardless of the name plate, none of these things are all good or all bad in absolute terms. There are pros and cons with most. The Delta hybrid has table mounted trunnions and connecting rods as an arbor carriage, which are less desirable to me than the cabinet mounted trunnions and cast arbor carriage of the R4512…..add the Biese fence to the R4511 and you’ve got a nice setup IMHO. Remove the “Delta” badge from the equation, and it’s really nothing special as early Asian hybrids go. Sounds like it’s moot point anyway, as the saw turns out not to be a hybrid.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#10 posted 03-01-2013 01:40 PM

I have an American made Delta 34-444 Contractor’s saw with a Unifence that I bought new in 1995. It’s one of the best built true Contractor’s saws out there, and all that I’ve needed in the 30 years that I’ve been a hobbyist woodworker. I still say buy the Delta if it’s in decent condition. I’m not going to even get started on the rediculous Cabinet saw recommendation.

View Ron Harper's profile

Ron Harper

133 posts in 601 days


#11 posted 03-01-2013 02:23 PM

Smitty,

I think the 8 pt D8 is a more practical choice :).

-- Ron in Kokomo

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

464 posts in 649 days


#12 posted 03-01-2013 02:39 PM

Your best choice?

Buy the Rigid. It has a riving knife (excellent safety feature) and is left tilt. That makes for safer and more accurate bevel cuts. The delta is right tilt, that alone should kill any desire to own it. Due to the apparent demise of delta, parts will be nonexistent.

Keep watching craigslist. Your best money spent will be an older cabinet saw. Better construction, better accuracy, and better dust control.

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#13 posted 03-01-2013 02:58 PM

Buy what you want, I’m tired of this constant delusional nit picking. It’s not worth the aggrevation or my time. Goodluck.

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#14 posted 03-01-2013 03:11 PM

@SawSucker, I am just looking for peoples thoughts, I will buy what I want in the end but I’m not super familiar with any of these saws and am trying to see what people think…. not looking for a definitive answer just thoughts (and yours are appreciated). Please don’t get aggravated… it’s not worth it… it’s only the internet.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#15 posted 03-01-2013 03:21 PM

Lsmart, The problem with some peoples thoughts is that some aren’t in your best interest. Not one of the people that are trying to push you towards a Cabinet saw have asked what you plan to do with the saw, how serious you are about woodworking, or have asked what your electrical situation is in your shop. For myself, I’m not rich, and I’m not going to sink a bunch of money into a hobby where in most cases I’m lucky if I can make $5 an hour. I have to spend my hard earned money wisely. I may not have the best of everything, but I feel fortunate and proud of what I do own.

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#16 posted 03-01-2013 06:18 PM

At the moment I have a small (400 sq ft) basement shop with a ton of other stuff stored in it, I could wire 220 if I needed to but my breaker box is pretty full and the electrical in my house is not finished yet. I am making some money doing commission woodworking right now and am managing to get in the $25/hr range and it sounds like there is more work coming. Hoping to start my 700 sq ft dedicated woodshop this summer.

At the moment I am leaning towards the Ridgid as it fits my budget and the left tilt is a big deal to me. Riving knife not such a big deal as I use shop made ZCI’s and am picking up a splitter pro (?) from Lee Valley when I go to get the saw. If I get the Ridgid I will probably get an aftermarket fence somewhere down the line. Gonna call the guy today to see if it is one of the recalled saws.

Much as I would like to buy a cabinet saw it won’t fit my budget or my shop right now… haven’t seen any $300 Unisaws on CL in Vancouver, more like $700.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#17 posted 03-01-2013 06:56 PM

Lsmart, out of curiosity, I’d like to hear about and see the work that your making $25 an hour at.

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

464 posts in 649 days


#18 posted 03-01-2013 07:19 PM

Lsmart-good choice on the saw. I used a Craftsman contractor saw for many years and made a lot of money off that old saw. Once you get into your new space you can look into upgrading to a cabinet saw.

Let me know if I can help you as you build your business. $25 an hour is a decent start, maybe I can show you some ideas to build that up.

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View woodtarded's profile

woodtarded

15 posts in 653 days


#19 posted 03-01-2013 07:36 PM

Lsmart— I am curious if you have considered the Rigid 4512…...I have been eyeing this saw for a little while and you could probably get one brand new from HD for 399.00 if you use a Harbor Freight 20% off coupon. It would avoid having to possibly deal with the granite top cracking….just a thought. As far as finding a Unisaw on Craigslist, well all I can say is good luck. I look daily and honestly only see older craftsman saws…..not bad but definately not a Unisaw. GOOD LUCK!

-- Jimmy---- Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic.

View nwbusa's profile

nwbusa

1017 posts in 971 days


#20 posted 03-01-2013 09:04 PM

As Lsmart mentioned, good deals on used quality saws are few and far between in our market. We don’t have Harbor Freight in Canada :) so that doesn’t work for us. Last month I sold my R4512 on CL for $350 and I probably could have got more for it, it sold the same day with several people wanting it.

-- John, BC, Canada

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#21 posted 03-01-2013 11:19 PM

@SawSucker, At the moment I am doing some custom mirror frames for a friend who is a clothing vendor, on my return from Vancouver I am starting a design table for some other friends who have a hemp clothing business, fairly complex piece will have a stained birch frame, shelves along one side and two big compartments with lids flush to the table to hold rolls of paper for pattern making.

@SamuraiSaw, Always pleased to hear new ideas for making money, living in the country there are no jobs, only work. I have a bunch of ideas for smaller projects and am going to try pretty hard to hit the craft fairs in the area this year.

@woodtarded, I have considered the 4512 but it is just out of my price range… might be able to convince the wife if it turns out there is something wrong with the 4511 but I don’t really want to go there right now and I would like the saw for the above mentioned table project.

@nwbusa, if you are in Greater Vancouver Area I think I was looking at your saw and was pretty disappointed when it went so quick. Was hoping it would wait until next week when I got there.

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112289 posts in 2262 days


#22 posted 03-02-2013 02:42 AM

Ls
It’s your money and your budget but if the person with the used Rigid will not take less and the New Rigid can be purchased for $100 more with the HF coupon ,don’t you think your better off with a new saw that has a warranty
and no wear and tear on it ?
Just for the record IMO Knotscott is our resident table saw and saw blade expert among other things. If I were asking advice about table saws I would weigh strongly in favor of his recommendations.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View DavidNJ's profile

DavidNJ

387 posts in 678 days


#23 posted 03-02-2013 03:10 AM

The R4511 is basically a Steel City model…new around $800. The R4511 doesn’t have the riving knife so you will need that. The granite top doesn’t accept magnetic tools, however I’m finding that less of an issue than I thought.

The current Steel City models split the granite at the miter slot which has caused some problems with people having a taper in the miter slot if the wings are not aligned correctly. The R4511 predates that and the has the miter slots cut in the center section.

I kinda like the R4511 and might have one now if my wife didn’t insist on a Sawstop. I would spend the extra money on an Incra fence and Incra or equivalent miter gauge and miter fence.

View Cosmicsniper's profile

Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1843 days


#24 posted 03-02-2013 03:27 AM

I think getting a 3hp cabinet saw is so important that you plan electrical around it. I’ve said this before, but I truly feel like you don’t know you NEED something until you’ve actually used it. Then, you start to see all the things you can do with it that you never knew you could. When I got my Unisaw, it opened a whole new world.

A good cabinet saw will outlast many of us. They are safer…and the price typically equals out over the years of ownership.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#25 posted 03-02-2013 03:28 AM

Well I finally called the Ridgid guy and the saw has a cracked top “it’s fine if you’re not doing serious cabinetry” that’s that one out the window. Got one more I am asking about just listed as “Ridgid Cabinet Saw” waiting to hear from the seller what model # it is. If that one doesn’t work out I’m gonna talk to the wife about upping my budget and see how that goes if so I will go for a new 4512.

@a1Jim as mentioned there is no HF here in Canada.

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#26 posted 03-02-2013 03:35 AM

@Cosmic, I would love to go that route, at the moment though it just isn’t practical in my shop or financially viable in my budget, as I have mentioned I am living far from anywhere you can actually get a “Job” all we have here is work and in the winter it is pretty scarce. But I do want an upgrade from my Bosch 4100 (which has served me well but is very limited) for my next commission which is a 75” X 75” table.

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#27 posted 03-02-2013 06:04 AM

View Rick M.'s profile

Rick M.

4116 posts in 1065 days


#28 posted 03-02-2013 07:00 AM

The Delta, no question. I’ve owned one for 15 years with no problems and still going strong.

-- |Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

5512 posts in 2060 days


#29 posted 03-02-2013 12:43 PM

Did you see that King Industrial 2hp saw for $450? That could be their hybrid style saw with 2 solid cast wings and a good fence. If so, I’d see what they’d take for it if its still available. $350-$375 would make it attractive to me.

What happened to the Delta 34-444 with the Biese fence for $285?

FWIW, Ridgid has never had a true cabinet saws in their lineup, but it could be another R4511, which had a 3/4 cabinet.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View toolie's profile

toolie

1767 posts in 1313 days


#30 posted 03-02-2013 03:34 PM

FYI on the Rigid, “This saw was recently recalled for faulty blade arbors. Apparently the blade arbor can break when the saw is equipped with a dado set. Saws affected have date codes between CD0829 and CD0837 and were sold at Home Depot stores between January 2009 and July 2009 for approximately $600.”

FTR, this comment pertains to the discontinued ridgid r4511, not the current r4512.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#31 posted 03-02-2013 03:41 PM

Lsmart : If I had room/power. http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/tls/3645955843.html
Then you’d get it home and eventually figure out that you’d have to throw another $400 – $600 at it because it’s 3 phase, and it’s missing the mag switch. Plus there may be other things wrong with it because it’s an olkder saw that was more then likely used in an industrial or commercial enviroment.

View Cosmicsniper's profile

Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1843 days


#32 posted 03-02-2013 03:47 PM

@LSmart – Everybody has a budget. That’s fine. The hybrid and contractor saws can serve people fine for many years. My post was more with regard to those who say, “What are your needs?” I just don’t think it works that way. Really great tools open up so many avenues that your needs will change. At least that’s true of the hobbyist. If you have a specific need for a tool as a professional, that’s different.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

464 posts in 649 days


#33 posted 03-02-2013 04:19 PM

If I had room/power”

3 phase machines can be a great deal. A phase convertor for that saw would run about $175 and the switch another $100. Even if the arbor bearings are bad, that’s only another $50. Commercial applications are not evil and most saws like that are in reasonable shape. Usually I see worse from hobbyists who put all kinds of cardboard and duct tape doo-dads on their saws thinking its a high end improvement.

The drawback to that saw is the right tilt. That’s a deal killer!!

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#34 posted 03-02-2013 04:20 PM

Cosmicsniper : My post was more with regard to those who say, “What are your needs?” I just don’t think it works that way. Obviously we disagree, I buy my tools based on what I need, not what someone else that doesn’t know me telling me what I need. SamuraiSaw : A phase convertor for that saw would run about $175. Ofcourse he won’t tell you what the advantage of a new motor is over a phase converter. But then again, he probably doesn’t know. The drawback to that saw is the right tilt. That’s a deal killer!! People got along just fine for many years with right tilt saws, including myself. I still use one to this day, with no problems.

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SamuraiSaw

464 posts in 649 days


#35 posted 03-02-2013 04:54 PM

”But then again, he probably doesn’t know.”

Well Chuckie, a properly sized convertor will run that saw efficiently with less cost than a replacement motor. There’s no compelling reason to change out the motor as long as the existing motor works.

If you have a differing opinion, by all means enlighten us Chuckie!

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#36 posted 03-02-2013 05:01 PM

SamuraiSaw : Well Chuckie, a properly sized convertor will run that saw efficiently with less cost than a replacement motor. There’s no compelling reason to change out the motor as long as the existing motor works.

If you have a differing opinion, by all means enlighten us Chuckie! First of all, my name isn’t Chuckie, so stop with the childish personal attacks everytime someone challenges your opinion. And actually a cheap phase converter will not be efficient.

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

464 posts in 649 days


#37 posted 03-02-2013 05:59 PM

”And actually a cheap phase converter will not be efficient.”

Hence the reason I said a properly sized convertor, which can be had for around $175.

But thanks for playing anyway.

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#38 posted 03-02-2013 09:21 PM

I’ll let someone else straighten you out on phase converters.

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#39 posted 03-02-2013 11:07 PM

Hey Guys I love all the input, but please let’s all keep it civil, opinions are just that… opinions, if you think or know you are right, that’s great. Others are entitled to their opinions. Unfortunately when balancing budget, room, power considerations, safety and function there are no hard and fast answers and it is up to the buyer (me) to make the final call and hope that what they get serves them well. I am only looking for more info and insight into the various saws to help me make my decision, not for a “right” answer. You’ll notice I asked Which Saw? (Dare I Ask) beacuse I knew that people get pretty worked up on the internet some times… I wasn’t looking to start a fight. I have appreciated all of the input I have gotten (about the saws) from all of you… In the end I will have to balance your opinions plus my own research and make my own choice.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#40 posted 03-03-2013 01:43 AM

Lsmart, I think that Scott asked you What happened to the Delta 34-444 with the Biese fence for $285? I’d like to know also.

View iminmyshop's profile

iminmyshop

119 posts in 679 days


#41 posted 03-03-2013 01:57 AM

One assumes, reasonably so, that if you are on this forum you are not looking for a saw because you are framing houses.
I agree with the poster who suggested Craigslist and a cbinet saw if that is possible. Expand your search to a large radius. It will be worth the drive to get a good, used cabinet saw rather than a new contractor’s saw for the same price. The older saws were built to last. The newer stuff not so much. As long as the motor is good a good saw can be adjusted. Having started out with a contractor’s saw because it was what I could afford I can tell you it was ALWAYS off no matter how careful I was. Contractor’s saws are designed to cut 2×4’s for construction and they do a great job of that. But for cabinet making they @#$!!

Here is a good link to Craigslist that looks into the database of many cities at once:
http://www.searchtempest.com/

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#42 posted 03-03-2013 02:31 AM

@SawSucker not sure about the Delta because of the right tilt, I know people here have been using them but I am a bit scared of the blade and definitely prefer the fence on the right when I cut… I am going to check it out when I am in the city but am leaning away.

@imin I am under the impression that the Ridgid is somewhere between a contractors saw (I have a Bosch 4100) and a cabinet saw. Also lifetime warranty if I buy a new one. I have had good results with the Bosch over the years, take my time setting up each cut and everything seems to work pretty good (as good as my calipers can say). I am going to the city this week and have a big paid project on my return that could definitely use more power and a wider rip capacity and will more than cover the price of the Ridgid or Delta. Have been haunting CL daily and am not seeing anything in a cabinet saw that is practical for my budget/space/power system.

Please guys I know you would all like me to have a cabinet saw… I would like that too. But at this time it is just not feasible. Trust me I have thought hard about it.

View History's profile

History

399 posts in 666 days


#43 posted 03-03-2013 02:44 AM

You should be scared of the blade, but I think that your over thinking the left tilt thing too much, but whatever, goodluck.

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

464 posts in 649 days


#44 posted 03-03-2013 03:13 AM

Go with the Rigid…........

Aside from the warranty you’ll get the left tilt and a riving knife. That makes the saw safer and more accurate. On my previous contractor saws I seldom used the guards because they were cumbersome and inconvienient. Fortunately I never had a serious accident. The riving knives are far more effective and easier to use. I seldom turn my saw on without the knife in place these days.

I’ve used both right and left tilt saws and can tell you the left tilt is far better for a number of reasons. I’ll never own another right tilt saw, they’re not worth it.

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View Moron's profile

Moron

4666 posts in 2578 days


#45 posted 03-03-2013 03:26 AM

chiming in

anyone ever tried the “SawStop” contractors TS ? they make two different stands and you can configure the top and electrical supply somewhat, add cast or metal extensions, standard fence, upgrade the fence etc.,….. big bucks for a contractors saw for sure but will they last ? curious minds want to know cause the big beastly cast iron stationary vintage cabinet saw is quite the ball buster to lug around a job site so my fear remains that I have to buy another saw too ……the last saw I bought was the Bosch, that was 2 years ago and the screamer is almost done screaming, ever edging closer to a landfill : )

I agree with “iminmyshop”, cause I’ve bought quite a few contractors table saws , no exceptions, every single one of them brings a sigh of despair when I look at it but they seem to work for framing and even then its mind draining but admit its better to have one then not but

My preference is knowing that when I place force to the cam that locks the fence to the rails, that it is perfectly square, perfectly secure, perfectly accurate, perfectly powerful and dust free, time after time after time…….. you cant buy those at HD, CT, HF, …..not happening so like they say, If you can dream it, you can do it

On your budget I might entertain the idea of finding a good used cabinet saw, smile at the wife knowing you made a good purchase, and never have to upgrade again ?

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

View Howie's profile

Howie

2656 posts in 1608 days


#46 posted 03-03-2013 03:48 AM

Buy one you like, read the manual, learn to use it, swear it’s the best on the market(even if you hate it) and make sawdust.

-- Life is good.

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#47 posted 03-03-2013 04:14 AM

@moron sawstop would give the wife conniptions and I have entertained the idea of the cabinet saw, there is also a trasport issue as I am am travelling in my honda cr-v with 3 other people.

@Howie, making sawdust is my specialty. :)

View Lumberpunk's profile

Lumberpunk

199 posts in 1022 days


#48 posted 03-03-2013 05:35 AM

Hey if anyone wants to deliver me their used quality cabinet saw in BC by the 15th of march I can pay $500 and give you a load of fir or birch logs… can be milled to your spec for $40 per hour… Just checking :)

View TheBryan's profile

TheBryan

11 posts in 597 days


#49 posted 03-03-2013 06:17 AM

I’m seriously considering the 4512 (come on Tax Return!). I grew up using larger 3phase machines (Pops shop), but that’s just not practical for my garage, nor do I really need it. I have ran some stock through a friends 4512, and it seems to work for anything I would need it for. I will be building smaller heirlooms, mostly hand crafted, just need to get exotics down to rough size and let the hands go from there. For the money and power, I don’t think you can beat it. Certainly there is better, but instead of trying out several machines, I’d rather go with something comfortable ( on pocket book AND to work with), learn its weaknesses and deal with it.

View Moron's profile

Moron

4666 posts in 2578 days


#50 posted 03-03-2013 08:23 AM

excuses rarely hold weight so why digest any other view

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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