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An alternative to Saw Stop?

by runswithscissors
posted 456 days ago


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232 replies

232 replies so far

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Woodmaster1

412 posts in 1093 days


#201 posted 452 days ago

I notice on Rough Cut Tommy has switched to a Powermatic table saw to replace his sawstop. That must be his alternative to sawstop. I still believe all table saws are safe if the safety features are used.

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

871 posts in 616 days


#202 posted 452 days ago

I notice on Rough Cut Tommy has switched to a Powermatic table saw to replace his sawstop. That must be his alternative to sawstop.

It means Powermatic sponsors the show…

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/9/prweb9946657.htm

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1080 posts in 578 days


#203 posted 452 days ago

Dude There is only a safer or less safe saw, never a safe saw.
” Mike I know this is not true but I also know your arrogant enough to think it could not happen to you because your careful” I don’t really get that about mike. I think he feels more like I do.. Humble enough to realize it can, and may happen… And that we are ok with that. Mike’s set up is quite safety oriented. What is losing a finger vs. fighting cancer?? Why use SS when you ride a motorcycle or drive a car to the shop. It just seems repulsive to you that individuals are willing to accept a greater level of risk than you. Why is that not ok?? The first answer I gave in LJ about SS was on a forum where someone was asking “should I buy it or not” (paraphrase) The answer I gave, and in my mind is still the correct one, was; if your are un-sure if you need it, than you SHOULD buy it. ”These guys don’t care about your safety” Of course not!! The hand saw was and still is safer. The product was invented to create productivity. At it’s inception the trade off was safety for speed, and you had to accept that. There has ALWAYS been that trade off with this technology, for 100years+
Thank you for showing such passion and regard for our safety, and for being such a proponent of safer saws, and safer behavior, but respectfully, you might get farther if you were nicer and a little more compromising. The tool is after all a compromise in the first place.

-- Who is John Galt?

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joeyinsouthaustin

1080 posts in 578 days


#204 posted 452 days ago

Getting back on track.
May be the brake does need to be separated from the blade. Although I still am entertaining this auto arbor Idea. Here is a whole new idea on the airbag line of though. The air bag is not good. And i see most propose it with humor. Most obviously it is going to turn the work piece into a projectile. What if the blade doesn’t stop at all. Imagine a ribbon being fed onto the blade, covering the teeth. This would force the hand away, or like a glove, keep the teeth from cutting. It would use the speed of the blade for deployment. A ribbon likely would not work, but maybe a high tech polymer of something, would spray on the blade, covering the teeth, forcing the hand away. Then could just be cleaned of the blade. The tip of the riving knife could be a deployment point, it extended forward, only a few teeth would have the chance to cut you. Combined with a proximity sensor type system…. etc.. This would be another system that would easily broadcast to other tools. Call it the spider saw!!!

-- Who is John Galt?

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6711 posts in 1420 days


#205 posted 452 days ago

Joey = +100

VERY well stated. I think you have interpreted my personality quite well, and I am flattered. But beyond that and to get to your real point, EVERYONE really does set their own ’window/zone of risk’ as you point out.

The rejection mentioned, and the SS cult, kind of reminds me of those who try to mandate the inclusion of a particular religion into politics, but I am NOT going to go there today. Time to take a deep breath… After all I am in the middle of a real shellac job on my Shaker chest. ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Woodmaster1

412 posts in 1093 days


#206 posted 452 days ago

Cessnapilot Barry I know Powermatic sponsors the show. If the Powermatic was as unsafe as some people think he would not use it.

View madts's profile

madts

1210 posts in 845 days


#207 posted 452 days ago

How the Dudster50 can comment on anybody’s spelling and punctuation is way beyond me. Also how come, he wants the freedom to own a gun. But he wants to force everybody to buy a SS saw.

-- Thor and Odin are still the greatest of Gods.

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Dave

93 posts in 1703 days


#208 posted 452 days ago

runswithscissors, it looks more and more like your idea to move this conversation over here and prevent hijacking the other thread was a brilliant move. I’m going back to the shop and tinker with the idea of making a “rip sled” for my saw. It’s been fun!

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

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Purrmaster

773 posts in 599 days


#209 posted 452 days ago

My apologies if this isn’t quite on topic but would it be possible to make a safety brake for band saws? That would seem like the other logical tool to have a safety brake on.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3280 posts in 1873 days


#210 posted 452 days ago

After thinking about permanent magnets as a possible brake/clutch; there is a potential of electrical currents being introduced into the blade.

A conductor, the blade, moving through a magnetic field will create a current somewhat similar to the Hall Effect. At this time, I don’t know at what levels these will rise to and/or if they could be harmful, and/or if they could actually be used to either shock the user when they get too close and/or as another body sensing field!

Further more detailed investigation would be required!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

937 posts in 1371 days


#211 posted 452 days ago

Im thinking a saw that pretty much prevents your fingers from ever getting near the blade, doesnt have to stop at all.

A little story one of my college professors told me, not sure if its true or not. During the Gemini and Apollo program NASA was having trouble making a heat shield material that could keep the astronauts inside the capsule cool enough to survive reentry. Turns out the engineers at NASA werent focusing on the correct problem, the problem was to keep the astronauts alive during reentry, not to develope a heat shield good enough to keep the reentry module cool enough. As soon as they realized this they used the best heat shield material they had AND cooled the air in the cabin and that was how they kept the astronauts alive during rentry.

Any way the point of the story was first you have to address the right problem before you can get the best solution to it.

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oldnovice

3280 posts in 1873 days


#212 posted 452 days ago

So Pat, taking your solution from above, an electrical shock coming from the blade when you get too close may be all that is needed!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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oldnovice

3280 posts in 1873 days


#213 posted 452 days ago

~Jonathan~ damaged or cut off, it’s your choice!

And, if you are cutting a 4’x4’x1” thick piece of MDF, why is any part of your body close to the blade?

All the airbag really has to do is push a little, not throw anything anywhere.

Besides that, I trashed the airbag because I don’t like it and for cost reasons!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View Shawn Masterson's profile

Shawn Masterson

1059 posts in 454 days


#214 posted 452 days ago

I am on the other side of the fence with these saws. I am a union carpenter and eat extreme safety every day. I feel while the SS is a great thing. that being said it can make people lazy and complacent. We have gotten one of these in our training center and upon investigation it was discovered that there is a key switch to turn the sensor off so you can cut wet lumber (treated) without setting it off. If I turn it off and then you use it after me and oops you never knew it was disabled. I believe in darwinism, if the stupid are in the ER then they are not by me. you can’t stupid proof the world. and it seems like they are trying on the job site.

this my not have came out right in written word
sorry if my opinion is offensive

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thedude50

3438 posts in 983 days


#215 posted 451 days ago

Shawn I believe that this is not correct the saw resets after each use as stated above. I as a supervisor would hold the only key and only allow bypass if I know who is using the saw.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

773 posts in 599 days


#216 posted 451 days ago

You are correct, the bypass does reset. Also, it blinks a warning light when the bypass is on.

View Dave's profile

Dave

93 posts in 1703 days


#217 posted 451 days ago

Purrmaster, I think that’s right.

By the way, has anybody ever tried making a ‘rip sled’ for a traditional (non-sliding-table) saw? I’ve seen DIY sliding tables but no sleds.

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3280 posts in 1873 days


#218 posted 451 days ago

Dave I was in the process of designing one using the Tslot extruded aluminum parts but then I got laid off and my supply of the pieces were left there.

We used a lot of this stuff and older tools would go into a “grab” heap that could be used for new tools or personal use. In fact we were encouraged to try things with this material that would normally take a machinist some time when starting from scratch! We made the usual things too like tables, carts, reconfigurable work stations, safety enclosures, and too much to list here.

Tslot and 80/20 both have linear bearings that were part of my original idea and length of the extrusions is not really an issue as they can be nearly any length. This stuff is well engineered material and the support from either company is very good!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View crank49's profile

crank49

3250 posts in 1477 days


#219 posted 451 days ago

I made this comment way earlier in the thread, ”The Saw Stop patent would not stop you from making some other brake or drop and release method, but the SS method is absolutely the best one possible.”

And I have seen more than one comment about how we would still be riding horses if engineers or designers thought like this. I couldn’t dissagree more. I am an engineer myself and have been for 40 years. I am just a realist. The SS method is absolutely the best method/system available right now. I did not say it is the only one out there. I think the slider type saw is a safe saw and a practical alternative to some people.

Perhaps your problem is with my use of the word “possible”.
This gets into the legal aspects of the process.
Suppose you came up with another way to stop the blade.
And suppose someone gets this alternate system on a saw.
Now, the first time a person gets cut on it don’t you think there will be a flock of lawyers out there claiming this new system is not as safe as advertized, not as safe as the other technology available.
Ask Ryobi how fair the legal system is. Does not make a damn whether your intentions were good or greedy, you’re going down. That’s why it’s not possible to have another system.

I’d be willing to bet a large part of the cost of a SawStop is their liability insurance cost.

The legal issues were one reason other manufacturers did not buy into the liscensed technology of SS. They could not selectively put it on their top end products, where they could absorb the cost, and still offer entry level saws without it. That would be like admitting they put a price on safe products and if you don’t want to pay the price they can sell you a cheaper un-safe product.

I’m really surprised retailers like woodcraft that sell SawStop and other brands haven’t already been sued.

-- Michael :-{| Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

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MrRon

2407 posts in 1749 days


#220 posted 451 days ago

I’m wondering if a blade can be retipped if needed. When the brake fires, only a few teeth will be in the brake zone and maybe only those teeth need to be replaced.

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rance

4107 posts in 1666 days


#221 posted 451 days ago

Someone (way) earlier asked if SS could draw blood. Yes it can, I watched it happen to a friend. However, he got a bandaid rather than an ER visit. Well worth the cost of a good blade. BTW, SS replaced his cartridge for free.

Reliability:
The SS safety feature can fail, so don’t trust it 100%. As for the override, yes, it resets back as soon as the saw is shut off between cuts.

As has been mentioned in other SS posts, look up the meaning of brake vs break.

Trivia: Has Gauss ever built anything out of wood? Oh, that’s right, he’s just in it for the money. Just another BSL.

-- Backer boards, stop blocks, build oversized, and never buy a hand plane--

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

937 posts in 1371 days


#222 posted 451 days ago

crank49, yes my problem was with the word possible used. to me that made it sound like there would never be anything better come along. It just reminded me of the story about the head of the US Patent Department saying everything that can be invented already has been invented.

Back to the discussion is the problem how to stop the blade or is it how to keep your fingers from being cut off with a saw?

Something that has always bothered me about the Sawstop brake system is what if it causes a carbide tooth to fly off the blade and puts someones eye out? I know its probably a long shot but if it came to a finger or an eye I would much rather loose a finger.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3280 posts in 1873 days


#223 posted 451 days ago

Do the fingers have to touch the blade? How about just too close? There are means of doing that that tell the user to back off without stopping the blade! Collision avoidance system is cars are just one example!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View 404 - Not Found's profile

404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 1475 days


#224 posted 451 days ago

In simple terms there are three principle operations you have to contend with.

Sensing the danger – could some sort of sensor be used in the fence? You could even have a laser beam running perpendicular in front of the blade as a first warning that fingers are in the danger zone. I’m thinking an infra red heat detecting sensor.

Stopping the blade instantly – What about the old stick thru a bike wheel trick? A slotted saw blade you could fire a pin through, or a sacrificial sprocket on the arbour with an arm to engage it, getting around the problem of trashing your blade. With a kill switch for the motor or shear bolt somewhere along the drive to disengage the motor.

Moving the blade away from your pinkies – what about the portion of the table in front of the blade springing up – hinged at the front of the table to lift the work piece and your hands/arms away from the blade, quickly but not that violently it would break your wrists.

These are just ideas like the op asked for. This was supposed to be a think tank right?

I’m curious as to how much research has been done into the cause of table saw accidents?

Is it like stationary target fixation when you’re pushing a piece through the blade, so much concentration on the blade you forget to move your hand? (Like ploughing into broken down vehicle on the hard shoulder).
If it is, why not have a heat sensing proximity sensor, or a laser in the fence, surely you’d notice a laser beam across your fingers – even an audible warning.

Is it fingers and thumbs slipping on a piece of wood and thrusting into the blade so it all goes horribly wrong in an instant?

Is it tripping into, or reaching for something over the blade and getting it all wrong?

View REO's profile

REO

544 posts in 580 days


#225 posted 451 days ago

This is certainly NOT an endorsement of the SS. I have seen a lot of discussion on stopping parts other than the blade. stated directly don’t bother trying! Unless you want to manufacture a keeyed hole sawblade. The sudden stop of anything in the drive system BUT the blade will loosen the blade and it will keep on spinning. If you think you tighten the blade enough to prevent this next time you look at a spent SS cartridge with the imbedded blade determine how much force it took to do this. do you put that much energy into tightening your blade! The disk brake idea is a good one! just needs to be modified a bit. discharge the same as the SS cartridge and use two wedge shaped shoes one on each side. I think one of the reasons the SS drops is just a way to dissipate all the energy from the sudden stop, without dropping it would be like hitting the arbor mount full force with a 24 oz hammer. I don’t think SS makes the saw any more safe. It just helps to reduce the outcome of unsafe behavior. For some it may make them overconfident and create a more dangerous atmosphere. I grew up in a shop, have used the TS since I was 10. Often after making a cut I think…..hmmm would I let MY son do that?, and he is 30.

View rance's profile

rance

4107 posts in 1666 days


#226 posted 451 days ago

Often after making a cut I think…..hmmm would I let MY son do that?, and he is 30.
A good question to ask before each cut.

renners, good questions about history. I wish I knew the stats.

A slotted saw blade you could fire a pin through, or… getting around the problem of trashing your blade.
Pick one or the other. I don’t think you can have both.

-- Backer boards, stop blocks, build oversized, and never buy a hand plane--

View crank49's profile

crank49

3250 posts in 1477 days


#227 posted 451 days ago

Can the blade be repaired?

The answer is YES.

I know that Forrest will inspect and can normally repair a blade that has been damaged in a brake fire incident.
They will replace the damaged teeth and regrind and balance the whole blade.

For much less than a new blade.

-- Michael :-{| Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

View lumberjoe's profile

lumberjoe

2798 posts in 754 days


#228 posted 451 days ago

I think everyone is trying to make a rube goldberg machine and SawStop was the first to market. Instead of over thinking the problem and trying to instantaneously stop a spinning blade, take a couple steps back and rethink the issue.

Why is a table saw dangerous? Because you have to push wood with your hands. Instead of elaborate error prone mechanisms , focus on removing the danger. A slider is a good start, however you still need to rip like a normal table saw for the most part. Figure out how to send wood through a blade without touching it and you win.

-- www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

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madts

1210 posts in 845 days


#229 posted 451 days ago

This thread has been very interesting to read. I have stayed out of it because I have very little knowledge of the SS patent. How ever I have knowledge of the human being. They can screw up any thing that has ever been devised. You can regulate, formulate any kind of …ate. and the human brain will figure out a way to bypass a device. And that is when people get hurt.

-- Thor and Odin are still the greatest of Gods.

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patcollins

937 posts in 1371 days


#230 posted 450 days ago

madts what are you talking about?

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madts

1210 posts in 845 days


#231 posted 450 days ago

Sad but funny.

-- Thor and Odin are still the greatest of Gods.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3280 posts in 1873 days


#232 posted 450 days ago

There are three ways of detecting human flesh with today’s technology:

  1. contact with the human to close a circuit as used in SS
  2. FLIR, Forward Looking Infra Red, expensive but reliable
  3. laser temperature sensor, linear scanning, not single point as most are today

The last two would need to scan the area around the blade at some safe distance so the human does not encroach in that envelope.

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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