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View runswithscissors's profile

An alternative to Saw Stop?

by runswithscissors
posted 01-22-2013 07:37 AM


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232 replies

232 replies so far

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#151 posted 01-25-2013 10:57 PM

Are you sure they wouldn’t use the technology if it was licensed to them for free, in the interest of the public good? Is there an implication that the other companies are bad because the first two got to it first, and the public is accepting of a certain level of risk? They don’t have a choice about market share so long as the patent protects SS? Kinda like holding a seat belt patent and not allowing others to use it. I am I missing part of the story, was the technology offered to them and they refused?

-- Who is John Galt?

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joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#152 posted 01-25-2013 11:02 PM

dave it is part of my understanding that dropping the blade is, in part, part of the mechanics of killing inertia. Stopping only the blade allows all the inertia to be dispelled as heat, Is dropping the blade needed if it is stopped fast enough?? I assume maybe. Another point, with the motor dis engaged, and in the case of certain types of accidents, the work piece becomes part of the brake. I have seen this on underpowered saws.

-- Who is John Galt?

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joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#153 posted 01-25-2013 11:04 PM

This type of clutched arbor system might more easily broadcast it’self to other tools? Still gonna be hard to stop that band saw:)

-- Who is John Galt?

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jap

1229 posts in 709 days


#154 posted 01-25-2013 11:05 PM

joeyinsouthaustin – how do you get the blade in?

-- Joel

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joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#155 posted 01-25-2013 11:07 PM

I fully re-acknowledge for the crowd that the SS solution, even with it’s faults, is elegant. And that we are working around the proprietary notion in this little thought experiment… just being mindful of the original intent that I interpreted at the start of this thread, and the amount of traffic burying things here.

-- Who is John Galt?

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3515 posts in 1133 days


#156 posted 01-25-2013 11:17 PM

Gass asked for 8 dollars per hundred they never even counter offered they forced him to bring the saw to market himself. I applaud the guys tenacity. He developed the saw and the system all on his own. We should laud a guy who makes things safer for us not call him names and put him down. It is clear the other companies had a chance to counter offer and come to terms and use this idea . Look at whirlwind a good idea not as safe as a saw stop yet but getting there and it is a young product compared to SS. However not one company has offered the guy a dime for his work. On comparison the man who invented disk breaks was well compensated for his idea. I don’t know what it will take for the heard heads to realize that they don’t care if your saw is safe they only care about profit. A saw stop is less than a comparable Delta and Powermatic the only saws made close to the quality of a SawStop

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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Dave

115 posts in 1852 days


#157 posted 01-25-2013 11:21 PM

+1 Joey and MSDebbie. It sounds like there’s gonna be a fight after school in the parking lot.

Joey, I think that dropping the blade away from the offending finger might extend the amount of time available to get it stopped but I dont think its a requirement IF you can get the blade stopped fast enough.

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

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thedude50

3515 posts in 1133 days


#158 posted 01-25-2013 11:25 PM

One other thing you guys don’t seem to get it if you have a break fire for skin contact you are given a replacement cartridge for free. And while SAW STOP tells you to not reuse the blade I know of several people that have been able to remove the blade and reuse it with out trouble including Rob Cosman. I simply look at the savings one major laceration to the hand will cost you thousands in lost work and in medical expenses the cost of a good blade is 100 bucks or less. I will toss the blade and write it off. It is a small price to pay for safety I know most saw SawStop owners fell the same way. If your Idea works in this thread and you do give it to the saw company it will be ten years before they bring it to market. all that time you are at risk.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#159 posted 01-25-2013 11:37 PM

Well dude… They all fared better than the guy who invented the intermittent wiper>>

I do appreciate that it is pointed out that Delta and PM are well built, can we call these saws less safe, it is not like they are constructed in an unsafe matter, they are safe for what they are. We have all seen saws sold on the entry level, targeted at the amateur market that are truly unsafe, in materials used, and shoddy construction. (I forced my brother to throw one away. the fence couldn’t hold in place even) Also, we would all likely be surprised at how low that margin is. Ultimately market place will make the decision.

Especially if the SS continues to outperform in the categories not associated with the safety feature its self.

-- Who is John Galt?

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3765 posts in 2023 days


#160 posted 01-25-2013 11:37 PM

No for something really different!

Solenoids, clutches, electric brakes are all TOO SLOW! Only an explosive device is fast enough, some type of cartridge!

Does the saw blade have to move out of the way? Perhaps NOT. How about a technology that has been around longer than Saw Stop and is in use all over the world?

The blade insert could be a replaceable air bag insert!

Granted, the blade will destroy the air bag almost as fast as it is deployed but the remaining force would push any fingers out of the way if the airbag blows in the direction away from the blade. It may not stop a nick but it should surely stop a dismemberment.

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View ichbinpete's profile

ichbinpete

109 posts in 1347 days


#161 posted 01-25-2013 11:40 PM

Are break pads going to work well on blades with coating though? I think that was already questioned, but I dont know how well they would work on a material that was conditioned to resist friction to begin with. I keep going back to finding a way to stop the blade with as little travel as possible, and dont see how you can do that with a breaking system, with out slamming the blade in to something. I think even SS’s technology, someone referenced it travels approx. 3/8 of an inch which can still cause moderate damage (also referenced earlier in the thread). Anything more would seem to be counter productive to what is already available, strictly from a breaking perspective.

All the other options seem to work to damage other, more expensive parts of the saw (motor, arbor, etc).

Playing devils advocate a bit further, if you push people away from the blades with coatings, you are looking at more expensive blades that you can’t get at the local borg. Any that are worth a darn at least (i don’t think much of the Diablo line from Freud, but that’s another story). So now you’re buying more expensive blades to work with the solution, which I don’t see someone who is going to buy a cheaper saw doing. I guess what I’m getting at, is the money is going to add up somewhere, regardless of the protection. The new ideas are interesting though

-- It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#162 posted 01-25-2013 11:41 PM

jap The arbor shaft slides open. this allows the blade out, and functions as an automatic arbor. No more wrenches, push button to change blade. I see many limitations, but advantages too.

-- Who is John Galt?

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#163 posted 01-25-2013 11:46 PM

oldnovice, yes but there is also the chance that the bag would trap the hand against the blade. Nice way to think out of the box though… :-)

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

890 posts in 765 days


#164 posted 01-25-2013 11:52 PM

I’d like to reiterate…

I own a SawStop. I’m also all for contributing to alternative solutions.

Why? Because I like to shake hands with five fingered woodworkers. ;^)

I’m not trying to be obstructionist when I state all the conditions upon the SS technology still works. Identifying them, and not creating reasons for workarounds, is what makes an engineering solution good.

Think about how many splitter mounted guards sat on a shelf, because they get in the way. Along comes the riving knife and overarm guard, and an awful lot of the danger is eliminated. The danger is eliminated because there’s no reason to remove the protection for many operations. The flesh sensing technology simply steps in where the overarm guard can’t exist.

Keep the ideas coming!

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6938 posts in 1569 days


#165 posted 01-25-2013 11:56 PM

Agreed.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#166 posted 01-25-2013 11:57 PM

Good devil’s advocate I am pete A brake system like this powerful enough to defeat coatings, would likely destroy the blade, thus defeating part of the goal. A mechanical connection (like the two pin quick connect on hole saws) could allow you to sell proprietary blades. Here are some of the things I came up with: can’t use with dado…will restrict tilt….will still mis fire….could mis fire with bad electrical…..etc. etc.

old novice and explosive could be used to activate the brake!!!

-- Who is John Galt?

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1256 posts in 728 days


#167 posted 01-25-2013 11:59 PM

I almost like the idea of an automatic arbor, more than the safety idea. Am I that lazy sometimes?? in theory!!

-- Who is John Galt?

View Dave's profile

Dave

115 posts in 1852 days


#168 posted 01-26-2013 12:07 AM

I’ve got it! On contact, the arbor detaches completely from everything, sending the blade careening around inside the saw housing, which is filled with airbags made from the hydes of greedy lawyers and…oh wait, the lawyers would probably sue the blade, ruining it for life. Never mind.

...oh, and +1 Barry. Well said.

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

997 posts in 1520 days


#169 posted 01-26-2013 12:10 AM

The Saw Stop patent would not stop you from making some other brake or drop and release method, but the SS method is absolutely the best one possible.

If man though that throughout history we would still be riding horses, not bathing and have no indoor plumbing.

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3515 posts in 1133 days


#170 posted 01-26-2013 12:15 AM

the current saw stop technology is faster than any air Bag could inflate the system has to be better than the saw stop stopping a blade in any manner fast as or faster than a saw stop will compromise the blade.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3765 posts in 2023 days


#171 posted 01-26-2013 12:18 AM

Jorge G. I take it you don’t believe it could be designed to blow the hand/finger out of the way! I only see that as a design issue that can be resolved much as they did with automobile air bags! The first automobile air bags were a far cry from the sophisticated air bags in the front, side, and head rails as they all blow away from the “hard parts” of the car!

In order to have a reliable system it needs a high MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). The component(s) with lowest MTBF will outweigh the better components.

The other is response time with is somewhat inversely proportional to the number of components in the system. The higher the component count, the lower the response time!

I believe air bags are meeting both of these criterion otherwise they would not be so widely used.

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1064 posts in 1449 days


#172 posted 01-26-2013 12:20 AM

We see it the same way purr. I’m sure the answer is out there. I’m thinking a laser or photo sensor. Maybe IR. Something to see the hand before contact.
Here’s a wild one- Make it something like these multi tools. The blade doesn’t rotate but oscillates. Why does the blade have to be round and spin?
Or you could do this – place your lumber on the table and it’s secured then you press the button and the saw blade traverses to cut while you stand in the clear. CNC tablesaw maybe??

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

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Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#173 posted 01-26-2013 12:27 AM

I take it you don’t believe it could be designed to blow the hand/finger out of the way!

Oldnovice, not so much as it could not, but like present day cars, you need at least 3 bags. Seems to me you would need something similar for a saw. Some people push from the side, some from the top, etc.

Maybe cutworm is on to something, how about instead of moving the board, the blade moves and the board is stationary and secured to a surface. Sort of like an upside down slider.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View mbs's profile

mbs

1438 posts in 1595 days


#174 posted 01-26-2013 12:27 AM

Oldnovice’s idea about airbags got me thinking about the real problem statement. In my mind the problem statement is that we want our hands to be able to touch the blade but we don’t want them to be cut by the blade. I would like a solution that allows me to grab the spinning blade, have it continue to spin, but not cut me.

Gloves aren’t supposed to be worn with saws because the saw can pull the hand into the blade (my neighbor lost 3 fingers because of gloves and poor setup). But what if the glove was pliable, comfortable and non-cutable by ANY blade. Similar thinking to shark suits, bullet proof vests, oyster shucking gloves,....

If a glove could be developed that allows both condition to be present simultaneously wiithout harm then it eliminates all the mechanical discussion and could potentially be applied to any saw or router of any vintage.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

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thedude50

3515 posts in 1133 days


#175 posted 01-26-2013 12:29 AM

MBS that is the best idea here so far then all saws can be safe there is a lot of potential in this.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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thedude50

3515 posts in 1133 days


#176 posted 01-26-2013 12:32 AM

the problem with the airbag is not only is it slow it would be destroyed when and if it stopped the blade car airbags cost about 400 dollars each to make this would cost more the existing technology.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1064 posts in 1449 days


#177 posted 01-26-2013 12:40 AM

This is what will happen. As woodworkers we have tunnel vision. A saw looks like this and does that. Someone will come along who has never seen a table saw with the solution and we will all take a look, scratch our butt and say Huh?? Wait and see.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View runswithscissors's profile

runswithscissors

951 posts in 680 days


#178 posted 01-26-2013 12:42 AM

Another possible reason various manufacturers didn’t bite on the SS technology is that it is NOT elegant, in spite of several people praising its elegance. Why? Because it’s too destructive of it’s own parts. It’s like not putting brakes on a car, but stopping it by driving into a bridge abutment instead. My whole thought in starting this thread was to avoid that violent, destructive action of slamming the blade into something to stop it. I figured that if the blade vanished in an instant (dropping below the table), it could not longer hurt you. Yes, it has to be instantaneous, but I think that is doable.

Again, if the blade vanishes (instantly), it can’t hurt you. I suspect rival companies are working furiously to find ways to make something like this happen. They can’t be content to let SS monopolize the TS business. I doubt if most of them are ready to fold up their tents and go home. We’ll see, I guess.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#179 posted 01-26-2013 12:45 AM

cutworm, I think that has happened to all of us. You are struggling with something and then someone comes along and says….”Why don’t you do it this way?”.....

Sort of like the urban legend about a truck which got caught under a bridge, there was the police, engineers, rescue, etc figuring out how to get a crane or a powerful enough tow truck to drag the stuck trailer and along comes a little girl and asks the policeman, “what are you doing”, he responds, “we are trying to get that truck unstuck”, so the girl asks…”Why don’t you just lower the air on the tires?”

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#180 posted 01-26-2013 12:49 AM

They can’t be content to let SS monopolize the TS business.

The problem I see is that I don’t think the TS market is big enough to warrant a lot of R&D. Gass was very smart because he knew he had a novel idea….and he developed further. The SS brake is similar to crumple zones in cars…it screws up the car but saves your life.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1064 posts in 1449 days


#181 posted 01-26-2013 12:49 AM

10-4 on that Jorge. These people don’t have on the blinders yet and get to ask the “stupid questions”.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#182 posted 01-26-2013 12:52 AM

Agreed cutworm, the additional problem is that Gass being a patent lawyer I am sure he has that patent pretty well sewn down…..

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

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cutworm

1064 posts in 1449 days


#183 posted 01-26-2013 12:57 AM

Like Apple. A patent on the shape of a phone.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View Scott's profile

Scott

55 posts in 1985 days


#184 posted 01-26-2013 01:16 AM

CessnaPilotBarry wrote:

”I own a SawStop. I’m also all for contributing to alternative solutions.

Why? Because I like to shake hands with five fingered woodworkers. ;^)”

Reminds me of a passage I recently read in Jim Kingshott’s Workshop book. To paraphrase: He once went to a gathering of over two dozen professional woodworkers in the UK, and only TWO woodworkers there had all their digits. That was years ago before improved safety standards no doubt, but it still gave me the willies.

-- Scott

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6938 posts in 1569 days


#185 posted 01-26-2013 01:42 AM

Yeah Scott… We all just WANT to cut our fingers off just to spite Steve Gass… Yup uh huh…’shore… yew betcha’...

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View derosa's profile

derosa

1556 posts in 1491 days


#186 posted 01-26-2013 01:49 AM

the biggest proble I see with the air bag solution is the cost to replace the air bags otherwise not a terrible idea at all. I can’t see the glove idea working so well. It’d have to be quite the material to resist being sliced by a blade that can slice through ipe while still being as flexable as a glove. I’m not sure the material exists yet. It also still has the potential of breaking fingers if they get caught by the blade.

-- --Rev. Russ in NY-- A posse ad esse

View Rick M.'s profile

Rick M.

3974 posts in 1035 days


#187 posted 01-26-2013 02:25 AM

The blade insert could be a replaceable air bag insert!

@oldnovice, funny, I came to post the same thing. It’s a great idea except for one thing, it would probably break your knuckles and maybe your nose when the board came flying back at you.

A lot of people seem caught on beating the SS idea but even if you’re a 1/1000 sec slower, a cut is better than dismemberment.

-- |Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

76 posts in 614 days


#188 posted 01-26-2013 02:48 AM

Brandon – no, the sensing technology has been around since before touch lamps. That is not his patent. It is only the brake cartridge and trigger. You could even get away with a brake if it was designed differently enough.

Why do so many people say Gass was being greedy? He has offer (way to high IMO) to license it. Only after that did he start to build a good saw and eat up most of the market. And for the guys who still think he has the market…. go to 4/5 stores. You will see 10/15 saws in total on the floor. about 8/10 will be a SS model. That is what us business guys call a freaking genius!

the ideas here are supposed to be about an alternative to stop the damage to your hand from the blade. Same sensing technology is game on so I would not try to change that up much. It works. Gass proved it.

Do you think he reads all this stuff and laughs at us. Hope so.

Hi Steve!

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

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Brandon

4138 posts in 1607 days


#189 posted 01-26-2013 03:21 AM

So maybe we’re thinking about this all wrong. Anyone up for trying a pair of chain-male gloves?

-- "hold fast to that which is good"

View NormG's profile

NormG

4175 posts in 1659 days


#190 posted 01-26-2013 04:06 AM

All very interesting

-- Norman

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

799 posts in 748 days


#191 posted 01-26-2013 04:51 AM

This is probably totally unworkable but…. what about a magnetic system? That is, some kind of electric magnet that could stop the blade? The advantage would be that you have no physical matter that has to touch the blade. Magnetic fields can be energized pretty quickly, can’t they?

Since I love shooting my own ideas in the head I see two serious problems with this:

1.) The amount of power required to generate a magnetic field that can stop a spinning saw blade would probably be enormous.

2.) If you stop the blade, even magnetically, you’ve still got that energy from the spinning blade that has to go somewhere. I would think stopping it with a magnet would deform the blade and possibly other parts it’s connected to.

I think the idea of a brake pad is probably a good one but I too wonder about coatings. I wax my blades to reduce friction. Blade makers stick Teflon onto blades to make them slicker. Brake rotors are designed to be grabbed. Saw blades aren’t.

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oldnovice

3765 posts in 2023 days


#192 posted 01-26-2013 05:07 AM

Purrmaster electromagnetic devices are too slow unless they are over driven to the point of self destruction to act fast enough.

It has to be faster, a replaceable explosive charge would be a faster solution! The charge could drive a brake to stop the blade by driving stationary caliper magnets (strong enough to require a jacking system to release the calipers) and even drop the blade! And a disc brake system would have to be powerful enough to grab through coatings on the blade.

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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Purrmaster

799 posts in 748 days


#193 posted 01-26-2013 05:33 AM

I wondered if magnets would be fast enough. I was thinking that electricity moves very quickly. So if flip a switch to energize the magnets the juice would flow in pretty fast. On the other hand it may take some time for the magnets to energize enough to create the full magnetic field.

That I’m guessing is what you mean by magnets not being fast enough.

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thedude50

3515 posts in 1133 days


#194 posted 01-26-2013 07:00 AM

We all just WANT to cut our fingers off just to spite Steve Gass… Yup uh huh…’shore… yew betcha’…

Then if this is the case you should just buy a safe saw your human and a mistake will seek you out . It is not that you want to be 3 finger Mike I know this is not true but I also know your arrogant enough to think it could not happen to you because your careful those are famous last words of thousands of people before their accident. Like it or not there is only one safe saw. Until all of them are forced to make safe saws they wont make safe saws even if you give them a way to do it. You guys are so funny to me Do you realize every saw manufacture except saw stop lobbied to have the proposed California law voted down. These guys don’t care about your safety and they are not interested in making a safe saw or they would have done so by now. Instead they are content with the crumbs left behind especially those that sell cheep saws. they want to keep their profit margins where they are. Even if it costs you a finger or two. What are you going to do if and when it happens sue them because they sold you a unsafe saw?? That wont get anyone’s fingers back.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#195 posted 01-26-2013 07:19 AM

LOL…...

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

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oldnovice

3765 posts in 2023 days


#196 posted 01-26-2013 07:59 AM

OK, let’s cool off a bit and consider these points:

  1. right now there is no safer saw than a Saw Stop saw if the safety is not disabled!
  2. there are people on both sides of the issue as with gun control, political viewpoints, religion, etc.
  3. in most cases one side will not sway the other regardless of spelling and or capitalization or foul language or invoking the name of a higher deity!
  4. Saw Stop is here and is here to stay with/without government intervention.
  5. Saw Stop will have competitors, if not now then in the very near future.
  6. You are entitled to buy any saw on the market as there is no proposed saw control legislation!
  7. You are responsible for your appendages!

I don’t think there is any point in taking this any further, at least for me there is not!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#197 posted 01-26-2013 08:07 AM

Awww man, oldnovice you made too much sense, and took all the fun out me baiting Thescam50…. You are correct in all counts.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

799 posts in 748 days


#198 posted 01-26-2013 11:24 AM

You mentioned you could use rare earth (permanent) magnets as they would react more quickly than electro magnets. What size of permanent magnets would you need to stop a blade?

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

890 posts in 765 days


#199 posted 01-26-2013 02:12 PM

Another possible reason various manufacturers didn’t bite on the SS technology is that it is NOT elegant, in spite of several people praising its elegance. Why? Because it’s too destructive of it’s own parts. It’s like not putting brakes on a car, but stopping it by driving into a bridge abutment instead.

I don’t agree.

I see it as a last ditch saving apparatus, not something to trip and reset daily, as you ignore all good safety practices.

In my eyes, it’s in the same category as an auto airbag, inertial seat belt, or the ballistic recovery parachute installed on small aircraft. All are one-use devices, designed to be there when you really need them, and to be as unobtrusive as possible to normal operation when you don’t.

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

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Alexandre

1417 posts in 846 days


#200 posted 01-26-2013 02:15 PM

”And you still cant spell. or capitalize the first word of your sentence”
TheDude50
Ok, that is funny…. There’s a period, and then “or” which is not in capitals…

-- My terrible signature...

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