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All Replies on An alternative to Saw Stop?

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View runswithscissors's profile

An alternative to Saw Stop?

by runswithscissors
posted 546 days ago


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232 replies

232 replies so far

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1535 days


#101 posted 543 days ago

Dave – there is no reason why a slider can’t cut a thin pc of material. And sliders have a regular fence too.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1535 days


#102 posted 543 days ago

Here are some pictures of a pretty cool setup (not mine). Its an incra fence with a vacuum fence attached to it. The vacuum fence can holds the material to the fence. The fence unit is mounted to the slider. It also has pneumatic hold down clamps too (last pic). Note that hands never get near the blade but if they did it would still cut you. It would be nice to have the blade stopping technology on this saw. I will be the first to admit that this is an EXPENSIVE setup. But it’s pretty cool, huh?



-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1058 posts in 1388 days


#103 posted 543 days ago

I have to read up on sliders. Something new to me.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1523 posts in 1070 days


#104 posted 543 days ago

After reading Mark’s story, what always comes to my mind is “why people do not use push sticks?” Maybe we don’t need a breaking system, maybe we need a table with a sensor on the fence, if you reach the end of a board it stops, if you are using a push stick (sort of an extension of the board) then it does not. Sort of like the sensors they have on the supermarket belts on the cashier line.

All these breaking ideas are just because the hand got close to the blade, why not just keep the hand AWAY from the blade?

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1523 posts in 1070 days


#105 posted 543 days ago

cutworm, want to drool some? google Altendorf….... that will be my next saw. Which BTW, we are all focusing on ripping/cross cutting boards. The SS is just as piss poor as any other TS at cutting panels like plywood.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

877 posts in 705 days


#106 posted 543 days ago

“I also got to see what I did not believe (like Mike) until today. 3HP PCS next to a PM2000, some huge expensive General”

I replaced one of those Generals with a SawStop ICS.

Folks, remember… One of the beautiful things about a SawStop is that it works with 99% of the operations done on a typical small-shop cabinet saw.

For example:
- Crosscut and miter sleds
- Bevel rips, on face AND on edge
- Box corner spline jigs
- Edge splining (slotting)
- Dados and rabbets
- Vertical and horizontal tenons
- Horizontally curved stock in carrier boards (think “chairs”, “bowfront”, etc…)
- Bowed stock with a carrier runner
- Taper jigs
- Dovetail sleds
- Box joint jigs
- Cutting box lids free
- Very thin and narrow rips
- Stopped cuts, including dados

And, because you can defeat it for rare occasions when you HAVE to cut wet or conductive stock, it can function as a non-SS saw. The defeat cancels each time the saw is stopped.

None of the protection requires the blade guard or riving knife to be in place.

Power feeds and hands-off conveyors work GREAT for dedicated production machines. Typical experienced users of cabinet saws use them for far more than ripping and crosscutting flat stock.

From an engineering standpoint, you have to honestly assess the goal and current competition. Any solution should be able to accomodate all of the above, without defeating the protection.

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6914 posts in 1509 days


#107 posted 543 days ago

”...The SS is just as piss poor as any other TS at cutting panels like plywood…”

And Boy! I hate cutting full sheets of plywood! I have been known to rough cut with my circular saw and then final size on the TS.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

877 posts in 705 days


#108 posted 543 days ago

“The SS is just as piss poor as any other TS at cutting panels like plywood”

Not with a proper infeed and outfeed support setup… and I don’t mean roller stands.

If you’re cutting sheets all day long, the best way is actually a CNC router. Next is a slider, and then a properly equipped cabinet saw.

If you’re not doing only sheet goods, any decent cabinet saw can be equipped for safe, accurate, and drama-free one-person full sheet cutting, with very little setup time.

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1535 days


#109 posted 543 days ago

Here is a youtube link to a slider demo.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1523 posts in 1070 days


#110 posted 543 days ago

Not with a proper infeed and outfeed support setup… and I don’t mean roller stands.

Sure, and I can strap a jet engine to a pig and make it fly. I have to disagree with you on the CNC as that needs a lot of programming to learn. A slider is the best of all worlds, you can do boards and sheets easily without having to spend a month making an island around your TS.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3577 posts in 1963 days


#111 posted 543 days ago

Hammer tools sliding table TS

I don’t own a Hammer, but I pretend I do on TV!

Watch the video, it is an impressive TS!

Sorry for the duplicate post, Hammer is part of the Felder group!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View Dave's profile

Dave

115 posts in 1792 days


#112 posted 543 days ago

Thanks mbs – guess I was thinking more of the bolt-on sliding tables for the American saws but you’re absolutely right! If you start with a european design the sliding table goes right up to the blade and you can rip anything you want while your body parts stay well away from the danger zone.

Watching that link gave me a serious case of saw-envy.

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

76 posts in 554 days


#113 posted 543 days ago

Good call Mike. Do you just rough cut and then let the Grizzly clean it up or have you got a Festool or similar track saw? Those sweat but $550 its use. I can see that being much more important on a jobsite where you are stuck with a cabinet saw.

That being said, I will post a few pictures later of the last Theater project I completed. The trim crew build a black walnut room (VERY NICE) with a delta contractor saw and listened to some aweful music the whole time.

MBS – that was great – thanks!

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1535 days


#114 posted 543 days ago

Dave/Bronco, I may have transferred the same tool fever I caught when I watched the video. I apologize, in advance, for putting your through possibly one of the more expensive woodworking purchases you consider.

I should have mentioned that a power feeder can be used with the saw.

There is a much longer youtube video showing how to make a big walnut desk with a slider combo machine for those who are interested.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View Mark Smith's profile

Mark Smith

491 posts in 635 days


#115 posted 543 days ago

Jorge G, I was using a push stick with my right hand. It was my left hand I tried to sever.

-- Mark Smith, Tracy, CA., http://www.markscustomwoodcrafts.com

View Rick M.'s profile

Rick M.

3772 posts in 975 days


#116 posted 543 days ago

Dammit, I really want one of those Hammer saws now.

-- |Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

View derosa's profile

derosa

1532 posts in 1431 days


#117 posted 543 days ago

Oldnovice- I really like that saw; unfortunately I’d have to drop the cash on a sawstop long before I ever got up the cash to buy one.

Mike- your argument really is a moot point. Look through this site for all the accidents that have occurred resulting in serious hand damage with a tablesaw. How many of those would have been prevented by a sawstop? From all the ones I can remember, every single one of them. Yes you can turn off the feature and turn it into a regular saw, so what, if you couldn’t you’d be proclaiming its suckage for failing to be able to cut wet wood or not be able to slice through nails when it needs to. Gass doesn’t give it away for free; why should he? I’ve never heard him claim to be an idealist that he isn’t in it for the money, just that he’d like to see every woodworker using his system for their own safety, the two concepts actually run quite parallel. At least he had the solid brass ones to put his money where his mouth is when no one wanted to pony up the cash to sell it for him.
The truth is, the saw does make a difference and it does save fingers. Claiming it’s worthless because it can be defeated is silly. My car has an incredibly high safety rating with 7 airbags, 3 of which are for the driver alone, special reinforced roll cage and crush zones. Think I can’t defeat those systems even without turning them off; does that make my car useless or overpriced junk? I just don’t understand your need to come into these threads and rag on a product that is superior in safety to any other cabinet saw in its price range simply because the inventor cashed in on his smarts; most great inventors do.

-- --Rev. Russ in NY-- A posse ad esse

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1535 days


#118 posted 543 days ago

There are a lot of choices with sliders. Here is a link to a discussion about them. The brand information helped educate me about the different brands. Here’s what I think I know:

I believe “Martin” and “Altendorf” only make industrial lines of machines. Many people consider them the gold standard in sliders.

SCM has two lines. “SCM” or “SCMI” is the industrial line. “Minimax” is the Hobby/mid-grade line.

The Felder brand has three lines. “Format” is the industrial line, “Felder” is the mid-grade line and Hammer is the Hobby line.

Not trying to derail the thread. But sliders may play a part in reaching the ideal final result so they may be worth learning about.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

774 posts in 688 days


#119 posted 543 days ago

I don’t want to be a schoolmarm but let’s not let this thread turn into a SawStop debate. Please.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but the motors typically used in a table saw are induction (A/C) motors, yes? Can they not stop/brake as easily as DC motors?

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3577 posts in 1963 days


#120 posted 543 days ago

Purrmaster, yes an AC induction motor is brakeable but not n the same manner than a DC motor.
If you Google induction motor braking methods you will find a number of articles on this topic!

The best article is because of the diagrams.

Russ the Hammer K3 is not that expensive @2999.00 for a 31” rip capacity!
A SS (that looks bad when you write it that way) comparable is $2,299.00
So you need to decide if the extra cash is worth the sliding table and the capabilities/safety that provides!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View Rick M.'s profile

Rick M.

3772 posts in 975 days


#121 posted 543 days ago

Given those options, a SS or Hammer, I would spend the extra for the Hammer.

-- |Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1523 posts in 1070 days


#122 posted 543 days ago

mbs, Altendorf makes the WA6 which is the size of the Hammer K3 but much better. Don’t know about the price though, I am sure it is a lot more than the Hammer, but after my experience with Hammer and their A3 31 jointer/planer I am not touching them with a 10 foot pole…

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

877 posts in 705 days


#123 posted 543 days ago

“A slider is the best of all worlds, you can do boards and sheets easily without having to spend a month making an island around your TS.”

A month, Jorge? Do you whittle your projects? ;^)

Here’s the infeed side with the outfeed in the distance:

Here’s the outfeed side, a simple table with slots, which does extra duty as a spray table and general shop surface, with storage underneath, doing extra duty:

The outfeed is simply a 2×4 frame, with a double thickness of melamine, and protective edging. It took less than a day and $150 (retail) to make, including the trip to buy the materials.

Again, if you’re doing sheets all day, I agree a slider is great. It’s all the other things that small and one-person shops do with table saws that make a cabinet saw a better choice, and it’s not hard to make them extremely good at sheet cutting.

The slider takes up lots of space that can’t be repurposed when needed.

Now, back to alternative blade braking ideas…

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6914 posts in 1509 days


#124 posted 543 days ago

”...The truth is, the saw does make a difference and it does save fingers. Claiming it’s worthless because it can be defeated is silly….”

Come on Russ, why are you too repeating this LIE? I have never claimed the SS is worthless. NEVER! I have NEVER claimed that the SS is a bad saw either! TOTAL BS. I said that the ability to DISABLE the SS safety feature makes the SS safety feature worthless, and by that I mean it won’t save you if you don’t use it. Just like any other TS safety feature.

Tell me what portion of all of those purported TS hand injuries occurred while the operators was using ALL of the available safety features or the table saws they were operating? I would venture a bet that a large percentage, to maybe all, had disabled one or more available safety feature when their accident happened (no splitter, no riving knife, no kickback pawls, no featherboards, no push sticks, etc.). This is NOT just about the ONE SawStop feature. It is about operator error and/or failure to use available safety features on all table saws.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View lj61673's profile

lj61673

231 posts in 994 days


#125 posted 543 days ago

I understand your argument Mike and I happen to agree with it to a degree. The fact that the safety feature gets re-initiated each time the saw is powered up, that is, the user has to make a conscious effort to defeat this safety circuit each time, is an important point and can’t be discounted. There is simply no way for the operator to be badly injured (not counting kickbacks which can occur on any tablesaw) because he “forgot” to re-enable the safety device (unless he keeps the saw running).

Again, I don’t own a SS and never will, but there is no denying the effectiveness barring a stupid act by the operator.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6914 posts in 1509 days


#126 posted 543 days ago

”...Again, I don’t own a SS and never will, but there is no denying the effectiveness barring a stupid act by the operator….”

Nor do I. My whole point, though not always stated clearly, is that Steve Gass used an example of of an operator stupid act in his SawStop lawsuit against Ryobi, YET we are supposed to NOT recognize that SawStop table saws can ALSO be operated by those same stupid operators to the same effect?

The Ryobi lawsuit recognized the operator was not using the OEM safety features of the particular saw when the accident occurred.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1535 days


#127 posted 543 days ago

I’ve enjoyed the different design concepts discussed in this thread and I’ve learned a lot thus far. I’m not a design engineer but I enjoy hearing about the trade-offs and solutions from different industries.

I was hoping the SS legislation thread would provide a place for those LJ authors who enjoy the consistent banter back and forth about the saw’s design and the owners business practices.

The SS legislation thread is still open. I hope people use it regularly so threads like this one can stay on track. I’m hopeful that fellow LJ’s will contribute their opinions on design options if they’re don’t have to trudge through the SS banter to find/contribute useful information.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View Alexandre's profile

Alexandre

1417 posts in 786 days


#128 posted 543 days ago

-- My terrible signature...

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1523 posts in 1070 days


#129 posted 543 days ago

I hope people use it regularly so threads like this one can stay on track.

+1

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1523 posts in 1070 days


#130 posted 543 days ago

A month, Jorge? Do you whittle your projects? ;^)

No, I have customers visit my shop, I cannot have something cluttered and looking like it was put together in less than a professional manner.

I can put together a trestle stand with some rollers on top and use that, which is in fact what I have done when I use sheets so that I can put them away.

Not that I need to give you any explanations, but from a professional as well as a hobbiest point of view the slider beats hands down any American style TS. Including SS. Now, as mbs stated if you wish to continue discussing this maybe we can do it though PM or in the legislation thread.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1205 posts in 668 days


#131 posted 543 days ago

thedude50 greed is also why they make unsafe saws as well. Greed in part is why some of us use the saws. Greed in part is why SS makes the saw. The market place allows this GREED. If no one bought the unsafe saws, they wouldn’t have the chance to be GREEDY. The other saw companies have been forced to make a calculation that the same arguments are true in the marketplace that are made on every SS thread in this forum. The powered TS was always more dangerous than the handsaw, even when powered by a water wheel, why did it win out? Your argument uses false assumptions about capitalism.

The fact is if GASS ONLY CARED ABOUT SAFETY and didn’t have any GREEDINESS (or as your post implies PRIDE) he would not CHARGE to license the technology. He would license it for FREE, or sell at cost to other manufacturers, and make a polite profit back selling the cartridge. So while others are competing with each other in the status qou market, consisting of 100+ years of accepted safety,(at the small margin that something that has become commodity allows) SS is taking advantage of the monopoly a patent gives them to make extra money. The idea that all the players aren’t, or weren’t, trying to figure out a way to do this, inside the min profits created in the type of market they exist, is laughable. They lost the race, and possibly people to the competition. The competitive edge is displayed by the advantage SS has gained in market share, which only makes it harder for them to apply money to the R&D. I will repeat: It is clear the only concern holding safety hostage for greed is the patent holder itself.

To others What is being discussed likely won’t be better than SS, it just can’t violate the patent.

-- Who is John Galt?

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1205 posts in 668 days


#132 posted 543 days ago

Fastest postin’ discussion ever :)

SS = “Speed Spost” (sorry I wanted post to start with an “s”)

-- Who is John Galt?

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1535 days


#133 posted 543 days ago

This thread started out great but was overtaken by the SS Death Eaters. I’m convinced that the pull for the SS banter is an addiction that’s stronger than any illegal drugs.

Time for me to find another thread to follow.

Adios Amigos.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1205 posts in 668 days


#134 posted 543 days ago

MBS your right. We tried, and I have to admit to getting pulled in again too. It’s like fantasy football for carpenters!!!!

Someone start a fantasy TS league!!!!

-- Who is John Galt?

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3577 posts in 1963 days


#135 posted 542 days ago

Taking away the safety feature/advantage of the Saw Stop saw it is a well built saw! Is it as good as the others on the market Delta, Powermatic, Hammer, and many others remains to be seen as it is relatively new to this market and has no proven track record as the other have over many years of use!

In my humble opinion, this technology is what I call a “window” technology in that there is a small window of opportunity in which this technology can survive before the another better, lower cost, safer solution closes this window. This forum is an example of the people trying to help close this window!

This is why Gass is pushing so hard, he understands the window won’t stay open forever!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View dpoisson's profile

dpoisson

171 posts in 1509 days


#136 posted 542 days ago

On the subject of moving the blade down…what about something like this:

Have that clutch thingy dissengage the motor
Turn off motor so you can use the electricity elsewhere
power up a giant doom magnet (electricity generates magnetic fields, right?) that pushes down on the blade assembly
The blade slowly comes to a halt in a couple of seconds, safely incased in the hollows of the table saw belly.

Obviously, magnets would need to be added to the blade assembly (don’T recall the exact name).
Not sure if these could magnetise a steel top (so maybe granite top would be adviseable?)
Not sure if it could actually pull your hand in if you had a magnetised ring or what not (but then again, you’re not supposed to wear jewellry when woodworking).

-- http://picasaweb.google.ca/dpoisson

View lieutenantdan's profile

lieutenantdan

176 posts in 901 days


#137 posted 542 days ago

A friend of mine and fellow woodworker, Captain Hook, says thanks for this thread.

lieutenant dan

-- "Of all the things I have lost in life, I miss my mind the most."

View Brandon's profile

Brandon

4136 posts in 1547 days


#138 posted 542 days ago

Perhaps this has already been pointed out (I read most, but not all the posts on this thread), but even if someone develops a very good braking alternative to Saw Stop, isn’t the sensor device still part of Gass’s patent?

-- "hold fast to that which is good"

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2715 posts in 1839 days


#139 posted 542 days ago

While you are debating alternatives to Saw Stop, Saw Stop is reading this and trying to find a way to replace his original idea. If you have a good way, it is best to keep it under your hat for now if you want to cash in.

View Alexandre's profile

Alexandre

1417 posts in 786 days


#140 posted 542 days ago

And who are you Lance?
You barely spell correctly, and now your comment is disagreeing with your “free speech” (Which you spelt wrong) signature.

-- My terrible signature...

View ChuckV's profile (online now)

ChuckV

2375 posts in 2122 days


#141 posted 542 days ago

…we would sew you

Nice – both a lawyer and a tailor!

-- “That it will never come again / Is what makes life so sweet. ” ― Emily Dickinson

View Alexandre's profile

Alexandre

1417 posts in 786 days


#142 posted 542 days ago

+1 to what chuck said

-- My terrible signature...

View Brandon's profile

Brandon

4136 posts in 1547 days


#143 posted 542 days ago

Nice – both a lawyer and a tailor!

LOL. Watch out, Chuck, he may decide to make you some pants or something.

-- "hold fast to that which is good"

View ChuckV's profile (online now)

ChuckV

2375 posts in 2122 days


#144 posted 542 days ago

Or maybe sue the pants off me.

-- “That it will never come again / Is what makes life so sweet. ” ― Emily Dickinson

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

18615 posts in 2756 days


#145 posted 542 days ago

Enough personal attacks.
Everyone needs to be respectful – even if you disagree someone.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (https://www.facebook.com/DebbiePribeleENJOConsultant)

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

774 posts in 688 days


#146 posted 542 days ago

I can see two main goals for a technology to improve on SawStop:

1.) Non destructive. Not killing the blade and/or not requiring a cartridge.

2.) No damage to the user at all. Even if a SawStop causes a minor injury (which is far preferable to losing a finger) it still does cut you a bit. It would be nice to have a technology that prevents even a minor cut.

To accomplish goal number two I would think you’d need a way to detect finger contact before the finger touches the blade. But you’d also want to prevent the system being too paranoid and going off all the time. Though if goal number one is achieved then a misfire would be any annoyance and wouldn’t cost anything.

View Mark Smith's profile

Mark Smith

491 posts in 635 days


#147 posted 542 days ago

Purrmaster the problem with a sensor that would detect the finger close to the blade is you would probably have a lot more misfires. But then again if your saw didn’t so any damage to itself when it misfired it would be no big deal.

-- Mark Smith, Tracy, CA., http://www.markscustomwoodcrafts.com

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1205 posts in 668 days


#148 posted 542 days ago

To get back on track, and op, not track saw :) Some where buried in this thread someone mentioned that while disengaging the motor would be helpful, the clutch and brake would add weight. This prompted me to think, what if the clutch was the brake. Disengaging and stopping at the same time. This also prompted the thought of what if the clutch brake held the blade. The blade is set in an arbor with mating shafts and bearing on both sides. It would disengage and brake the blade in one motion letting the motor, drive and shaft all spin down on their own electric brake. It would also have the daily function of operating as an automatic blade arbor, for changing blades, and as a built in blade stabilizer. Then I though of designing the function around an 18 wheeler breaking concept. That is the air break is built on the stopped when off or fail design. The fail would cut power to the saw, automatically firing the break, and nicely skirting much of the SS patent. IT could be held open by an electric magnet and close automatically by heavy spring or such when power is cut off, or other ways.

Dropping the blade my not be needed, but could be handled as another function. see sketch. The shaft would slide to engage or disengage the drive plate. In full fail would engage the break and fully disengage the drive. There are holes but why not a public brainstorm.

Please take this opportunity to add value to the idea, and not tear it down. (I have already started that process)

-- Who is John Galt?

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3503 posts in 1073 days


#149 posted 542 days ago

Purrmaster I think those are good goals. I am sure the only one thinking about this is whirlwind and sawstop. what you guys don’t get is the other company’s will do nothing unless it is to protect their market share. I know for sure two companies are working on this but I do not know how serious they are doing this thinking. Both Powermatic and delta have told me they have people working on this however they have no release date for a safe saw they are content with the sales of other tools and have just let sawstop take the lions share of the market. not one company has purchased a license from whirlwind.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Dave's profile

Dave

115 posts in 1792 days


#150 posted 542 days ago

Nice, Joey. could you add an arbor mounted device on the “blade side” of the clutch that uses the blade’s remaining rotational momentum to help pull it below the table – and without damaging the blade itself?

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

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