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An alternative to Saw Stop?

by runswithscissors
posted 534 days ago


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232 replies

232 replies so far

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1049 posts in 1377 days


#51 posted 532 days ago

@ RickM – Knowingly push?? Takes a brave soul to do that.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View Rick M.'s profile

Rick M.

3747 posts in 963 days


#52 posted 532 days ago

Why did you add “Knowingly”? The blade guard that came with my saw would not prevent my fingers from going beneath it. Honestly I’m not sure how people cut their fingers off, you’d have to go straight at the blade and slip or somehow get pinched against the blade.

-- |Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

View lj61673's profile

lj61673

230 posts in 983 days


#53 posted 532 days ago

Here is a different approach; instead of trying to stop the entire drive assembly (motor, blade etc) why not modify the connection between the motor and blade? Instead of a belt and pulleys, some sort of drive that could be instantly decoupled (like a magnetic coupler) as a caliper brake is applied to the blade. This way all of the inertia of the motor doesn’t have to be dealt with at the same time. The motor can coast down preventing the need for a mechanism to stop it instantly, and the saw is saved from the stress of stopping all that mass at one time. Also there’s would be no need to damage the blade each time it stops, not to mention avoiding the cost of a new cartridge. Just another possibility….

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

876 posts in 693 days


#54 posted 532 days ago

Part of the elegance of the SS system… The momentum from the spinning blade and motor is harnessed to pull the blade below the table. Similar to martial arts, forces are used, not resisted…

I fully support alternative thinking, that’s what drives engineering forward!

For those who mention calipers braking the blade, just remember that there are lots of blades coated with Teflon, sprayed with cutting lubricants, or coated with pitch.

I think some of the other thoughts around blade disconnects, DC motors, counter EMF, etc… have some interesting promise. One aside is that the structure of the tool needs to dissipate the rotational force as it’s nearly instantly stopped… Any method of doing this should not cause a contractor or lighter cabinet saw to walk, or worse, roll over when activated. This is where a clutch could be worthwhile, especially in a higher horsepower saw…

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1049 posts in 1377 days


#55 posted 532 days ago

I’d like to see a breakdown of injuries. What percentage had safeties removed, how many were procedural mistakes, etc.
Knowingly is the way I push a piece of wood under the blade guard Rick. I’d like to know how many injuries occurred with the blade guard installed.
In looking back any of my injuries have been all my fault and not the result of one of my tools being inadequately safe. I agree with Ron White.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View CessnaPilotBarry's profile

CessnaPilotBarry

876 posts in 693 days


#56 posted 532 days ago

Just a thought, Cutworm…

The subject of this thread is alternative technology to SawStop.

We understand, you don’t think it’s necessary. You’ve made your point… ;^)

-- It's all good, if it's wood...

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6905 posts in 1497 days


#57 posted 532 days ago

Barry: ”...Part of the elegance of the SS system……”

Part or THAT SawStop elegance IS THAT THE SAFETY SYSTEM CAN BE TURNED OFF (AKA by-passed). Come on Barry, that is not exactly elegance. Turning off the safety mechanism of the SS is the SAME as any table saw, it makes it UN-safe.

I am not harping on this, as this is a simple fact that is NOT disputable.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#58 posted 532 days ago

A very powerful brake similar to a disc brake could slow a blade but at 4000 RPM and that little surface area it would have to be pretty big. If one of you builds one I might buy it from you!

I think this would do the trick.

1 – touch the blade
2 – immediate disengagement of motor (arbor continues to spin but clutch system releases blade from dive mechanism)
3 – immediate engagement of a brake system (this is the tricky part)
4 – Power cycle resets clutch and motor, back to work

Even if you had a pretty good knick on your finger this could eliminate loss and certainly multiple finger loss.

If shimano sees this post and builds the system i just described i should get a free saw. Anyone disagree?

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#59 posted 532 days ago

A procedural mistake is a mistake. That could be your neighbor or my kid one day. I have made procedural mistakes in every hobby and sport I have tried.

I hate the premium, hate that there is not a better saw with a similar safety, REALLY DO NOT WANT TO BUY A SS, but i think i might buy one tomorrow anyway. Because I used my hands to type this and to fix my son’s flashlight he just broke with a procedural mistake.

My drive to denver was building the above method in my head. I am an engineer gone business guy, but not enough of a nerd to try to go much farther than that.

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View derosa's profile

derosa

1532 posts in 1419 days


#60 posted 532 days ago

Actually brian your mention of shimmano brought to mind the concept of a hub clutch system, not something weak like a shimano hub but perhaps a chris king or hugi style engagement system. Something that allows the motor to freewheel even as the disc is stopped. Wouldn’t be the hardest system to figure out but complicated.

-- --Rev. Russ in NY-- A posse ad esse

View crank49's profile

crank49

3323 posts in 1554 days


#61 posted 532 days ago

Alistair, I must respectfully dissagree with your premise that the motor could stop itself electrically “just as effectively and with out the hassle” of the SS system.

A motor takes several milliseconds to reach full speed when starting.
During this startup period it can draw up to 7 to 8 times its full load amps.
If it did this for any extended period of time or if it pushed the limit even higher to say 15 times FLA it would surely destroy the windings.
So, I suggest that the energy required to bring a motor to full speed is the practical limit of energy that could be used to stop it.

Therefore, a current applied to a motor to stop it will absolutely stop it and this is a known practice, BUT it will take at least 1/10th of a second to stop. During that time the blade will have rotated about 5.8 revolutions. That’s 180 inches of surface travel of sharp teeth digging into a hand or whatever.

The SawStop system only allows the blade surface to travel about 3/8” in the circular path before it is snatched below the table. Also, during this time the motor on a SawStop is de-energized but the belt drive and even the blade to arbor connection will slip to prevent the destruction of the drive system.

Yes, I do think this is an elegant design.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#62 posted 532 days ago

Definitely needs to keep the motor going, that would be the biggest difference, without damaging something that has to be replaced. stop the blade, leave the motor, re-engage the motor. no failure necessary….assuming you can stop the blade.

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View runswithscissors's profile

runswithscissors

889 posts in 608 days


#63 posted 532 days ago

Just had an odd thought: I wonder if users of SS aren’t more cautious around the tool, because they don’t want to have to replace the expensive components. In other words, are they more solicitous of the saw than they are of their own fingers? You could look at that as another layer of safety with the thing. I suspect if I had one, I might run it with the mechanism turned off quite a bit of the time. I typically don’t put my fingers into the blade (that’s with about 65 years of table saw use).

Also wondering this: Does the SS do anything to prevent kickback, any more than riving knives and splitters with pawls do?

And back to this question once again: Once the blade drops below the table, does it matter whether it still spins (assuming it isn’t going to mess up belts or whatever)? If not, then the braking action could be conventional electronic brake or similar.

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#64 posted 532 days ago

SS has a riving knife or guard like every other saw today. No difference in kickback opportunity.

Centrifugal force (or some force like this) is what causes it to drop because of the spinning being stopped. You could not drop it still spinning, the force is to great. This is what keep a bike upright.

i assume you think about it more to prevent mishaps. Can tell you after a few months if i get one. maybe we have a trigger that shoots birdshot at you if you cross into the red of the blade insert. That would keep your hands away, plus you could use it bird hunting.

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1049 posts in 1377 days


#65 posted 532 days ago

A safety with a switch to defeat it? That’s enough to make a lawyer drool.

Sorry to offend you Barry but I just believe the best alternative is sitting between my shoulders.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

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cutworm

1049 posts in 1377 days


#66 posted 532 days ago

I like the birdshot.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3517 posts in 1951 days


#67 posted 532 days ago

In my opinion, the safest saw is one where the hands are not used to hold the stock being cut.

That being said, IMO a sliding table TS is as safe as SS!

Both can be “disabled” but the chances of getting with a sliding table ,that holds the material, are greatly reduced!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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runswithscissors

889 posts in 608 days


#68 posted 532 days ago

Gyroscopic force (not the same as centrifugal force), stabilizes a disk laterally, but not in the direction of spin. A spinning disk can of course move (or drop) in the same plane as it is spinning in.

But does a sliding table have anything to do with ripping? I suspect that’s where the majority of accidents happen. I regard my TS more as a tool for ripping than for crosscutting.

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#69 posted 532 days ago

gyroscopic, thanks scissors.

doesn’t the blade have to drop down and back? I don’t think this is a straight up and down motion.

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1523 days


#70 posted 532 days ago

Check out the European sliders, like Felder, Minimax, SCMI, Martin … The owners do almost all their cuts on a slider including ripping. Their saws are much longer and a lot more expensive. Some people outfit the slider with pneumatic hold downs. I was reading an article yesterday about some people using a vacuum fence on the slider and cutting veneer without getting their hands near the blade.

One of my internet friends has an older Felder and he operates it from his wheel chair. He’s never used the standard fence like most of us do.

Most of the slider saws have an integrated shaper. I don’t know about you but I’m much more afraid of a shaper than a table saw.The spinning mass of the shaper cutter can damage a hand quickly.

I bought a slider last summer but I haven’t had a chance to use it. It requires a different way of thinking. I’m anxious to use the shaper in conjunction with the slider too. I will try it out this spring/summer.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3503 posts in 1061 days


#71 posted 532 days ago

What I like about this is every one except mike seems to like the idea of a safe saw. I decided not to wait till later the technology is here already. so I own a saw stop. I don’t give a damn about the other saw companies they all had the chance to use this Idea and Gass would gladly license any one of them that grew enough balls to say they were wrong. this technology most certainly has a place on every new saw sold today. The only thing keeping every other manufacturers from making a safe saw is GREED

hats off to whirlwind maybe we will see their saw in the future as no one else wants to use his idea ether

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#72 posted 532 days ago

Dude – i think Gass wanted an 8% royalty on all sales. that is steep for a royalty. 3-5% would be a high royalty for a license like this however I think that if PowerMatic added $150 for the system and 8% royalty and passed it on the customer they would have a better saw.

Lets stick with my plan above, get it done, and negotiate a 7.5% royalty. I’ll share it with you!

Agreed on getting one now. I do think new add-ons will come like whirl-whatever but the SS is pretty freaking smart. Is it too late to claim it was my idea?

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

774 posts in 676 days


#73 posted 532 days ago

runswithscissors:

That actually does hold true for me and my SawStop. When my fingers get near the blade I am thinking not only that I don’t want to damage my hands but I also don’t want to shell out 200 bucks for replacement parts.

The safety system can be shut down but there is rarely a need to do so. You need to shut it down when using very wet wood, pressure treated wood (because of the copper), and if it has a bunch of nails or screws in it. Unless you frequently use those kind of wood the bypass isn’t something you’d normally have to kick on.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6905 posts in 1497 days


#74 posted 532 days ago

Purrmaster and others,
The truth of the matter is that that ON/OFF Safety Bypass on the SS can and will be used for many reasons. One of those reasons at some point will end up being frugality, IMO.

”...When my fingers get near the blade I am thinking not only that I don’t want to damage my hands but I also don’t want to shell out 200 bucks for replacement parts…”

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

774 posts in 676 days


#75 posted 532 days ago

Mike,

That may very well be true. I imagine if I had a series of misfires on my SawStop (thereby costing me blades and cartridges) I might consider using the bypass more often. More likely I would simply raise hell with SawStop until the problem was figured out.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6905 posts in 1497 days


#76 posted 532 days ago

Please understand that I am not dissing SS for the quality of their build/product. They have a very good product as far as I can see, from my views of it at the local WC. I just strongly disagree with the implication that all other table saws are “UN-safe”.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Purrmaster's profile

Purrmaster

774 posts in 676 days


#77 posted 532 days ago

I’m curious as to others thoughts about the electric brake idea. Not necessarily as a safety features. But as a convenience on table saws. I.e. Not having to wait for the blade to coast down. Is that possible to do on a belt driven machine? Or is it only something a direct drive motor (like my miter saw) can do?

View runswithscissors's profile

runswithscissors

889 posts in 608 days


#78 posted 531 days ago

All of the electric brakes I’m aware of are on tools like drill/drivers, impact drivers, miter saws, etc.; so what I’m wondering is whether that feature works only on universal motors, or can it work on induction motors too?

View crank49's profile

crank49

3323 posts in 1554 days


#79 posted 531 days ago

I think on an induction motor with a run/start capacitor, like most table saws, you only have to convert the AC power to DC long enough to stop the motor. Inertia could un-screw the arbor nut and cause the blade to get loose I suppose, especially if it were not tight to start with.

They do make motors with brakes built in, but they are expensive. They apply the brake by spring power any time the motor is not energized.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Rex B's profile

Rex B

307 posts in 834 days


#80 posted 531 days ago

gyroscopic, thanks scissors.

doesn’t the blade have to drop down and back? I don’t think this is a straight up and down motion.

Brian, I just wanted to point out that down and back and straight down are both “in plane” motions, as runswithscissors said. So gyroscopic force is not opposing the blade being brought under the table in any way. Also, when looking at your 4 step process:

1 – touch the blade
2 – immediate disengagement of motor (arbor continues to spin but clutch system releases blade from dive mechanism)
3 – immediate engagement of a brake system (this is the tricky part)
4 – Power cycle resets clutch and motor, back to work

Isn’t this exactly what SawStop does? I know steps 2 and 3 are swapped, and step 4 takes a little more effort than that, but really your process is the same as SawStop’s – the motor is disengaged when the blade drops and the belt goes slack.

I’m not trying to call you out or start an argument. Hell, I don’t even care that much about the for/against SawStop debate. But I think there are some misconceptions at work here.

-- Rex

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1061 days


#81 posted 531 days ago

Mike do you agree that the saw stop is safer . I haven’t had a break fire yet going on 4 months of ownership I have never put the saw on bypass nor do I expect to as I don’t see many reasons to rip pressure treated wood it is more a chop saw kind of product it wont even see my good miter saw instead outdoor wood gets cut on the old delta 10 inch chop saw.

Do you also agree that the only reason the other makers don’t make a safe saw is greed.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1049 posts in 1377 days


#82 posted 531 days ago

I want to add a different viewpoint. To me touching the blade is a bit too reactive. The system reacts after the blade has been touched. A different look – Some sort of auto feeder that feeds lumber to and through the blade. A series of rollers, featherboard type devices, etc. that auto feeds the lumber keeping your hands, self and arms well away from the blade. I’ve got no details. Only a thought. And a foggy one at that. Like on a planer – sorta, kinda with guide rolls. Only with guide rollers….....

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3517 posts in 1951 days


#83 posted 531 days ago

A brushless DC servo motor is capable of instantaneous start and stops and also variable speeds. Since it is brushless there is no radiated energy (electrical noise) from brushes making/breaking contact. And, would require a DC power supply and closed loop servo controller.

All in all this would NOT be inexpensive but it would not require replacing the blade when it trips!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6905 posts in 1497 days


#84 posted 531 days ago

”...Mike do you agree that the saw stop is safer …”

NO, because the opportunity to disable the proprietary flesh-sensing “safety feature” makes it null and void. Someone will abuse/ignore this feature, JUST as the worker in the SawStop Lawsuit ignored existing safety features of the Ryobi TS (fence AND splitter if I recall correctly). If the safety feature can be defeated at all, then it is of no good use because some A.H. WILL eventually do just that.

”...Do you also agree that the only reason the other makers don’t make a safe saw is greed….”

Only if you recognize that the greed is that of Steve Gass, and NOT that of the other manufacturers. No one wants to deal with the Devil. THAT is a losing proposition.

@lj61673 +10

8-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Dave's profile

Dave

112 posts in 1780 days


#85 posted 531 days ago

To help get us back on-topic, I really like cutworm’s idea of improving todays auto-feeder so it can handle all the common cuts while securing the workpiece. It avoids the need for Star Trek technology, could work with any saw, and could help reduce kickback accidents too.

By the way, in Mike’s defense I agree with him that saws today are Much safer. Some of those old table saws from the ‘50’s outright scare me. But, just because something’s good doesn’t mean it can’t improve, too.

Now then…how do I get a power feeder to do tenons…

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1061 days


#86 posted 531 days ago

mike ONE LOOK AT THE SAW STOP FLESH FIRES SHOWS GASS CARES MORE ABOUT WOODWORKERS THAN ANY OF THE OTHER COMPANIES

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3517 posts in 1951 days


#87 posted 531 days ago

I agree, I don’t believe that greed of the other saw manufacturers has anything to do with it! The cost/benefit ratio to other manufacturesrs is not there until there is some government intervention. A person may be injured by a TS, with/without SS, and they can sue but it comes down to the fact that user ”did not read and follow the included safety precautions”.

That being said, disregarding the safety issue and only on the technology issue reminds me of BETA versus VHS battle.

BETA was a better technology but the lower cost and extended recording time on VHS relegated BETA to professional use only … that is until other recording media eliminated both!

I think that will happen here too! SS will probably be used by a lot of professional shops and some alternative safety system will become the “standard” for home shops … until some newer technology eliminates both!

That is just the nature of our market system!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1061 days


#88 posted 531 days ago

old novice the saw stop is the top selling cabinet saw in the usa it is the standard

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Dave's profile

Dave

112 posts in 1780 days


#89 posted 531 days ago

I definitely agree the market picks the winners and losers at the end of the day, regardless of what we think is “best.” Sawstop sells really well, Delta makes a great saw, and so does Powermatic. I think it’s the entire package, not just the safety features that decide the sale and everyone’s needs are different. He who reacts best to the market will almost always win the day.

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6905 posts in 1497 days


#90 posted 531 days ago

Lance: ”...SHOWS GASS CARES MORE ABOUT WOODWORKERS THAN ANY OF THE OTHER COMPANIES…”

If Gass cared, it would have been passed on gratis… simple. this is about $$$$

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3517 posts in 1951 days


#91 posted 531 days ago

thedude50 I don’t have any numbers that tell me one way or another which TS is the top selling saw.

I don’t even know the aggregate numbers of saws being sold. If you have some numbers I would like to see them!
But don’t give me numbers for TS/CS between X to Y dollars as that slants the statistics!

I would rather see an aggregate of all saws that look like/perform like a TS sold in a given time period as any other breakdown can lead to bias for/against a given type/manufacturer!

Mike my former employer vacated one of my patents because it was good for the industry!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1049 posts in 1377 days


#92 posted 531 days ago

Hey Dave,
Tenons? Darn. Hadn’t thought of that. I had tunnel vision on ripping. I guess a crosscut might challenge an auto feeder as well.
I look at the sensor as a start. Not perfect but a start. The bypass switch indicates that it may have been rushed to market a little too quickly and it would be great if the estop didn’t create repair costs. Hopefully this technology will evolve into even better methods and will also be used on other tools like circular saws. Lots of carpenters with missing fingers.
Reminds me of this. A doctor my wife worked with decided to get into woodworking. One evening he sawed off a finger. The dog saw it hit the floor and ran over and ate the finger so he lost it for good. Kids watching all of this screaming and crying about that old finger eating dog… And it’s true.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View mbs's profile

mbs

1418 posts in 1523 days


#93 posted 531 days ago

Purrmaster – my SS with a 3 hp 1 ph motor has some type of brake. I just timed it and it stops in 5.5 seconds. I can hear something either engaging or disengaging when the blade is spooling down.

You guys are touching on many of the TRIZ principles. There is a lot of information on the web about TRIZ for those who are interested in learning more about it. TRIZ is an acronym for a very long russian word that I don’t recall. But the principles of TRIZ include the following thought process (there’s more to it than what I’m writing but hopefully you will get the idea):

1) Any problem we have today can be solved with existing information/technology – we may need to find the industry that has it, but its there.

2) Think about the Ideal Final Result before you start thinking about solutions. The ideal final result can be thought of maximizing the benefits while eliminating (or minimizing) the “harm”. Harm can be considered as anything undesirable. In this case harm can be cost, noise, flesh cuts, dust, friction, heat, ....

Ideal final results can be statements too. Something like: I want a device (note that I didn’t call it a saw because a saw can converge our thinking unnecessarily) that will cut anything but flesh without making any noise, without allowing any airborne particulates, without using any external power, which requires no human effort, that weighs less that 2 lbs and can fit in a bread box.

3) Maximize the use of available resources. SS has done a good example with this concept by using the inertia of the saw drive the saw below the table. Others are thinking about using the motor as a brake which is another example. Other thoughts – could the belt be used for something? How bout the trunion or the splitter?

4) Look at every component of the saw and ask the following. What function does it perform? Is the function necessary? Does the component do the function adequately? Can something else perform the function better or cheaper?

5) Don’t settle on compromises. A compromise is when a condition you want creates a condition you don’t want. an example is: I want a saw that cuts wood but I don’t want saw dust. Compromises can sometimes be overcome by finding a way to separate the two condition in either time or space. Separation in time allows both conditions to occur but one happens before or after the other which is acceptable to you. An example of this is landing gear on a plane. I want the gear for take off and landing but not during flight. The solution is retractable landing gear. Separation in space is harder for me to describe but a weak example of this would be I want to make a thin kerf cut (veneer) but I want to make a wide cut (dado). The solution might be to make a stackable blade.

-- Sorry the reply is so long. I didn't have time to write a short reply.

View Dave's profile

Dave

112 posts in 1780 days


#94 posted 531 days ago

cutworm, maybe a variation on a sliding table that automates the feed? With sliding tables you could attach jigs for tenons, secure pieces for crosscuts and, with enough travel, they could handle rips on large panels. The weak link is ripping narrower boards…but maybe adding a 2nd off-the-shelf power-feeder for rips along the fence would handle those? What do you think?

p.s. mbs – great post!

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

View Mark Smith's profile

Mark Smith

491 posts in 623 days


#95 posted 531 days ago

I’m starting with 98 posts already on the board and I read a lot of them, but not all of them. My SawStop story is still on the forum. Like many of you when I first saw the SawStop, my first thought was that I had been using tables saws for years and never had a problem so why in the world would I spend the extra money. I didn’t think I’d ever get one. Then I retired from my regular job and opened a small commerical woodshop business. I ended up buying a SawStop. I didn’t buy it for me, because I’m smart enough not to put my darn fingers into a saw blade. Aren’t we all that smart? The only reason I bought it is because I’m in California, the land of regulations, and I was worried California was going to pass a law requiring it. Sure I figured if I had something else it would be grandfathered in, but if I ever hired an employee could I get workers comp insurance without it? So I only bought it because I thought it may save me some headaches in the future.

Well guess what I did a few weeks ago? I was stupid. I had been cutting lots of wood into strips and I had what can be described as a brain fart and I ran my left thumb right into the blade. It took me a few seconds to even realize what happened because I knew I wasn’t dumb enough to touch a spinning saw blade, especially with the blade guard in place. But I used a poor technique and I did it. The injury to my thumb was actually a little more severe than a scrape you see advertised, but it’s been about four weeks now and it’s all heeled up and I still have my thumb attached to my hand. It left a nice little scar, but the thumb still works.

So when somebody invents something that works better than the SawStop, I’ll be all for it. But if the intention of a new invention is only to save the blade or so you don’t have to replace a cartridge and it doesn’t work as good, then I’ll take the SawStop anyday. If that SawStop had been even a thousandth of a second slower I would have probably cut into the bone. As it was the blade removed a nice chunk of skin.

-- Mark Smith, Tracy, CA., http://www.markscustomwoodcrafts.com

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BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#96 posted 531 days ago

Rex – I disagree. The SS cartridge is a catch and sacrifice device. Sensing the skin has been around since my grandmothers touch lamps. SS has no patent for that. using a brake and leaving the motor running are completely different then slamming the blade into the cartridge and forcing the belt to stop the motor.

The goal of this thread is an ALTERNATIVE to get the same result. Or for Mike is to get us to admit the SS is not really that good. Sorry Mike, it is.

You have to try to get the same result with a different approach. Wonder why there are so many types of wiper on a car? They all need them but they have to be different enough not be sued by each other for copying them.

I was at Tool King today in Denver. They ship nationwide from that facility and I challenged the guys there about if they really sell SS 10-1 over other brands. I was able to see the warehouse and verify with shipping that they really do send almost 10-1 SS out the door.

I also got to see what I did not believe (like Mike) until today. 3HP PCS next to a PM2000, some huge expensive General and about 15 other TSs. The PSC was opened up and you can look right in, HOLY CRAP! that was seriously as well build as anything on the floor. Did not want to believe it, but it is.

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

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Mark Smith

491 posts in 623 days


#97 posted 531 days ago

To add to my above post, since I opened my commercial shop I’ve got to meet a lot of new people in the industry and talked about tables saws and accidents. I have no run into three different people who have shown me badly mangled hands and told me about their table saw accident. Well one guy didn’t show me because his was fresh and his fingers had just be reattached so he still had a big cast on it. You know what one thing all of those guys had in common? They had all been woodworkers for decades and had made tens of thousands of cuts on a table saw. And all of their stories were just like mine. They just had a brain fart and did something stupid and it all happened in a flash.

-- Mark Smith, Tracy, CA., http://www.markscustomwoodcrafts.com

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HorizontalMike

6905 posts in 1497 days


#98 posted 531 days ago

BroncoBrain,
Please think before you start speaking for me. I never said, nor implied that SS is/was a poor/bad table saw. It is a good saw. However, its proprietary safety device is user controllable and can be turned OFF by that user. That fact makes the SS no better than any other table saw of quality build. NO better. It has nothing to do with “believing” or practicing some table saw religion, Brian. The SS is just another table saw among many that have safety devices.

It is up to the USER to determine what safety devices to use and what safety devices to remove or disable. That makes a Powermatic or Grizzly table saw just as good (when controlling for quality of build and function). A normal/average woodworker can be just as safe if they USE the safety devices available on current saws.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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BroncoBrian

76 posts in 542 days


#99 posted 531 days ago

Guy who showed me saws today worked for 20 years (Rich in Denver) and owned a commercial shop. About 3 years ago he had a kickback and his reaction was to stop it. He tried to push the board back down and set the back of his hand on 4 fingers. $12K later, they are there, but not pretty, one has no use and another not much. I believe the premium on the PCS 1.75 to be $600 though a better cabinet and saw for the money and half that for the 3HP. That is side-by-side comparison by a guy who thought they were stupid last week and was trying to decide which Grizzly saw to purchase. That is the math.

-- Stop thinking, let things happen... and be the ball.

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1049 posts in 1377 days


#100 posted 531 days ago

There you have it Dave. I like that approach.
Proactive instead of reactive.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

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